Whats the average age of an Ego?

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MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Whats the average age of an Ego?
In particular, the age of transhumans. Not AGIs or Uplifts. I know the game is kept vague on an actual time line. For whatever reason, I've been picturing the average ego being around 60-80. And folks with the original space colonist pushing 100-120. I imagine the oligarchies of PCs might be nearing their second century, since they could afford to be early adopters in digitizing their Egos.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
That seems a little too
That seems a little too scaled up, to be honest. Randomly rolling on Transhuman, the highest you can go is like, 120 or 130, and this is out of all 100+ ages, with a 2% chance on the chart. So this assumes that only 2% of transhumans encompass this entire range. 30s is the strongest option with around 30%, then 20s and 40s have ~20% each. Something to remember is that based on various data in the books, EP is probably set in the early to mid 2100s, though obviously it can be whenever you need.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
Remember that young people
Remember that young people are far more likely to invest in new technology like cortical stacks, and more likely to go through things like uploading and become frontierspeople.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
the core book however does
the core book however does state that the birth rate is at an all time low, prefall earth was probly under heavy population control which is going to lead to a generation as thinned out as that of WW1
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Yea, I can see that
Yea, I can see that transhuman places folks nearing the first century, as getting 'immortality blues'. But that doesn't make sense to me, as it seems to suggest that this is the first generation with digitized brains, that then also exploded across the entire solar system, even into the oort cloud. That doesn't make much sense to me. Just traveling out to rimward with fusion power ships would take multiple decades. Nother reason why I dont buy into this being the first generation of egos and stuff, is that having the body you were gestated with, (barring bioconserative), seems unheard of, maybe even uncouth. And the ubiquity of cortical stacks and egocasting, to me, suggests that its been at least a generation of everyone growing up with them. And almost no one gets preggers now. The books never say so, but it implies that the death rate has over taken the birth rate since pregnancy has been soo rare.
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
MrWigggles wrote:Yea, I can
MrWigggles wrote:
Yea, I can see that transhuman places folks nearing the first century, as getting 'immortality blues'. But that doesn't make sense to me, as it seems to suggest that this is the first generation with digitized brains, that then also exploded across the entire solar system, even into the oort cloud. That doesn't make much sense to me. Just traveling out to rimward with fusion power ships would take multiple decades.
Voyager 2 only took 12 years to get to Neptune. I get the sense that a lot of people had been undergoing longevity treatments to live into their 100s by the time the ego bridge became available, and then that technology allowed the old oligarchs to stave off death inevitably. I feel like the ego bridge has been around for less than a century, so the very oldest people are getting close to their second century.
Quote:
Nother reason why I dont buy into this being the first generation of egos and stuff, is that having the body you were gestated with, (barring bioconserative), seems unheard of, maybe even uncouth. And the ubiquity of cortical stacks and egocasting, to me, suggests that its been at least a generation of everyone growing up with them. And almost no one gets preggers now. The books never say so, but it implies that the death rate has over taken the birth rate since pregnancy has been soo rare.
It's definitely been at least a generation or two, but that's only about 50 years.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Specifically, the timeline in
Specifically, the timeline in Core says longevity treatments become widespreadly available to the rich about 60-40 years before the Fall, same with Fusion Powered spacecraft. The uploading and emulation technology only takes off about 20 years before the Fall.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
Travel times
MrWigggles wrote:
. . .then also exploded across the entire solar system, even into the oort cloud. That doesn't make much sense to me. Just traveling out to rimward with fusion power ships would take multiple decades. . .
The furthest habitats in the EP universe are about 3000 AU and at the very inner age of the Oort cloud. A fusion powered ship with a specific impulse of 100,000 (we are never given specific impulse information for the engine's in EP but 100k is a reasonable estimate) could reach those destination in a bit over 23 years if they had 75% of their mass devoted to fuel (again, a pretty reasonable estimate) and accelerated/decelerated at .05G. If you increase the fuel to 90% of the ship's mass (probably a more realistic estimate, all things considered) it would only take a hair over 14 years (14 years, 25 days, 9 hours, 9 minutes, 39 seconds). At 95% it would be under 11 years. These figures are probably granting an overly high safety margin. They assume that the ships only use 90% of their available fuel (45% accelerating and 45% decelerating). The 95% ship could shave about half a year off their trip (it would still take over 10 years) if they only leave themselves a 5% cushion instead of 10%.
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Its not just simpling getting
Its not just simpling getting a ship out there. There is also infrastructure in place in EP. Rimworld, has very established habitats, and since due to fall. Meathab itself, must have been a very long, multi year project to even get started, let alone mature to what it is now. Taking the suggested ages, would mean most of those habitats were built during the fall.
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
Meathab
Meathab is in orbit around Saturn which is considerably closer than the Oort cloud. A fusion rocket with only 50% of its mass devoted to fuel would take a mere 2 months to get to Saturn. As for the time to build something like Meathab nanofabrication probably means that the largest time factor was boosting the raw materials out to orbit. The single greatest problem would probably be getting enough Carbon out there with methane from Titan and Enceladus probably being the best sources. Hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen would be available in abundance from water and methane. Phosphorus and sulfur along with many of the trace elements could be sent from the inner system without too much difficulty. Would this be a multi-year effort? Probably. Especially to get it to its current size (which is probably smaller than you think. Its population is only 500). However "Belt and Titan colonized. Stations established throughout the system" is listed as occurring between 30-50 years ago in the timeline so that's not that hard to believe.
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Yeah, an important point is
Yeah, an important point is that it's space colonization first, mass uploading and resleeving later. This will also probably happen in real life (assuming digital emulation of a mind is even possible), despite some relatively low interest in space. I mean, we already have effectively a permanent hab in Orbit right now, it's just a low-pop Tin Can.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
Meathab
Actually, nanofabrication only becomes prominent from BF20-0 so it may not have been used on a lot of the habs (although Meathab is much more recent and I'm sure in its case it was). Still, the basic principles remain. Rather than shipping entire habs out to their ultimate destinations in many cases they probably shipped a 'core' consisting of a power supply and some critical infrastructure components. From there robots would gather and refine materials from available resources and construct the rest of the hab in situ (even with nanofabrication it is probably more efficient to build a deckplate using more conventional methods of refining ore and forming the plates than it is to nanofabricate them).
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
I think age ranges is one of
I think age ranges is one of those things you can find an argument for in the Fall no matter how, as a GM, you want the age range to fall. Did a lot of hip young kids with the scratch or pull to do it get off world because they knew the mind uploading score? Was it a transhumanity top-heavy with well-connected, rich old farts that were able to flee successfully from the TITANs? Both have a tale you can tell with the material in the books, and personally I think the average age of transhumanity (if you're including uplifts and AGI) is probably quite low, maybe around mid-30s? Take out the uplifts and AGI skewing everything lower and I still don't think it'd be out of the 40s. But that's just my game. I mean, for me, I basically say whoever managed to get up a space elevator before takedown, or onto a craft that actually made it beyond Earth's orbit, or broadcasted a signal with their ego that wasn't intercepted by superior TITAN tech and added to their mystery ego datavault...well that's just someone with at least a point or two of Moxie, and there's no age restrictions on Moxie in either direction! Of course, people with the resources to do so tried to make it off world with all their might...but some of those got taken down by TITANs (or their enemies under cover of TITANs, depending), so even if some refugee ships were filled by someone on the take, remember that while everyone thought the TITANs were going to headhunt and infect and otherwise annihilate everything that composes transhumanity there were a lot of legit heroic actions, including no doubt refusals to taint liferafts of human diversity with wealth-based selection (especially easy decision considering some of those "heroes" no doubt had a calculation that included whether or not wealth would be worth anything if the TITANs can't be stopped...but just imagine the rep boost if the solar system keeps spinnin'!). And both dastardly and heroically loaded ships were destroyed entirely or infected completely and so on, as well as the ones that got off...that's all up to the GM! So yeah, the young poor might not be so well represented everywhere...but there's probably more than enough places in the inner system where a ship captained by a nobler strain of transhumanity landed that you can find 'em in large concentrations here and there! I liked when, in a thread on here, someone mentioned the fact that one way the Jovians are actually really "good" is that they preserve traditional religions and, indeed, traditional members of those religions. How can you nuke the Jovians when the only remaining members of the Esquimalt First Nation are there maintaining the knowledge and wisdom bases of not only their own people, but all other indigenous cultures of the Pacific Northwest that didn't make it off Earth? So remember even the jack-booted thug badguy polity might have moved populations for less cynical reasons that would generate more representative cross-sections of age, socio-economic class, etc., and that's before we get to the autonomists saving people's asses.
trismegiste trismegiste's picture
consumerdestroyer wrote:I
consumerdestroyer wrote:
I think age ranges is one of those things you can find an argument for in the Fall no matter how, as a GM, you want the age range to fall. Did a lot of hip young kids with the scratch or pull to do it get off world because they knew the mind uploading score? Was it a transhumanity top-heavy with well-connected, rich old farts that were able to flee successfully from the TITANs? Both have a tale you can tell with the material in the books, and personally I think the average age of transhumanity (if you're including uplifts and AGI) is probably quite low, maybe around mid-30s? Take out the uplifts and AGI skewing everything lower and I still don't think it'd be out of the 40s. But that's just my game.
Same opinion here. We can figure out that many parents made sacrifice for their children first due to limited slots for infugee and I think many case & synth for example are run by teenager or 20s. That's the way I play : a young transhumanity. I think the "immortality blues" does not come with years (like a vampire of an elf in other rpg) but more with these new ways of life where with minimum work you can spend almost all your time in accelerated simulspace doing nothing, meshing, playing MMORPG and remembering about Earth. Many people (40s and after) couldn't find a real challenge in this new life, specially if the majority of other people around are young and barely remember how was the life on earth.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
A single game can contain
A single game can contain many lessons of the Fall! The lessons of the danger of a young, confused transhumanity trying to sort out collective survival [i]as well as[/i] the dangers of clarity and certainty in the hands of old power that weaponizes it to their own purposes. I like to drive home terror with individual, personal examples rather than trends. So, for example, if I want to get across the horrifying reality of trying to create a new world with so much old power siphoning the vitality of a transhumanity whose recovery from apocalypse is still uncertain, the ruthless survival instincts of oligarchs, etc. the PCs can uncover evidence of ships which were to have a representative slice of the population in Southern China, including ethnic minorities with no representation in space, that "didn't make it" in the Fall...which had actually made it just fine with different hacked readouts and ship IDs, selected and commandeered by Chinese and Indian oligarchs aboard so they could bring their extended families and most loyal minions (probably mostly quite old: I imagine the extended family pecking order of the ultrapowerful didn't prioritize based on youth and innocence). They can find footage from the security cams of one of the ships of a young couple and their young children and baby being denied entrance, the mother screaming that their muses all confirm their spot on the ship is valid (maybe the footage is what sparks the mission, trying to find out what ship the footage is from because this is the last known sighting of anyone of the Mönpa or Derung of South China, or whatever suits your thematic message best)! That doesn't need to mean the population skews old, it just means you want to get across the inhumanity of transhumanity's survival in that particular way. Same goes for a scenario to show how unprepared and inexperienced people who grew up during the Fall are for x-risks (a hab that skews young with a variety of conflicting naive conspiracy theories about what the sentinels are there to solve getting in the way of solving the problem comes to mind off the top), and again it doesn't need to mean the overall population trends one way or the other! Hell, the same lessons can be had in the same Martian city if you want to run it that way, doesn't even need to be jumping from reclaimer mission to isolated hab to make the point about how transhumanity's age candle is burning from both ends towards a gooey waxpile of x-risks in the middle.
trismegiste trismegiste's picture
Yes : "naiveté" of
Yes : "naiveté" of transhumanity is a key point. I mean, when you read the novels/reports in all EP books, specially those from sentinel agents, the majority of transhuman seems young, even childish and naive. The way Firewall looks at the transhumanity is somewhat very condescending, IMO. The time counter was resetted, EP takes place in "10 AF", not in "AD 2130". Okay it's a convenient way for the game designers to not to be too specific about the timeline but IMO it is also a way to say : the solar system has new societies/factions/polities and new ways of life, it's a "brave new world" to conquer and I love that vision. So it implies a young and naive transhumanity with its flaws but also with its energy for thriving and its thinking "out of the box". So imagine you're a 40s or a 50s and you have lost everything (even your body), you knew Earth and now you have to live in this strange new world with new economic, new rep, new environment, you gonna get these "immortality blues". I find theses two opposing POV very interesting and challenging to play. (I hope I am enough clear in my explanations with my poor english)
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
There isn't nearly enough confusion on this thread.
Just to muddy the waters a bit... The terms "age" and "birth rate" aren't nearly so clear cut as they are today. Consider time dilation; it's perfectly possible for an ego to be (for all intents and purposes) over 600 years old, subjective time, and an ego can go from birth to maturity in less than a year, both physically and mentally. It's also worth remembering that, thanks to the resleeving of infugees and the creation of forks, it can well be that the population is increasing despite having a death rate higher than the birth rate.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
"When you think about it,
"When you think about it, psychosurgical permatorture is a form of immortality." -an exhuman probably
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:Just
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Just to muddy the waters a bit... The terms "age" and "birth rate" aren't nearly so clear cut as they are today. Consider time dilation; it's perfectly possible for an ego to be (for all intents and purposes) over 600 years old, subjective time, and an ego can go from birth to maturity in less than a year, both physically and mentally. It's also worth remembering that, thanks to the resleeving of infugees and the creation of forks, it can well be that the population is increasing despite having a death rate higher than the birth rate.
no bodies at current ep tech sans neotenic take 3 years to properly develop and maturing egos through time dilation at that rate breaks them, see Lost Generation. and in regards to horizontal population growth, I guess that really depends on the laws in question. inner system the forks are persona non gratta and would not count towards official census while rimward such forks would have status decided by their grade most likely.
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
According the pg. 276 "cloned
According the pg. 276 "cloned biomorphs take at least a year and a half". While a three year timeframe isn't in absolute disagreement with the statement the impression I always had was that a year and a half was a reasonable approximation with longer cases running to two or even two and a half years, but those would be special exceptions. Is there a source you're drawing on for the three year figure? Also, sleeving infomorphs wouldn't cause a population explosion. Infomorphs are regarded as part of the population throughout most of the system. There's debate about AGIs in some places but the vast majority of the system doesn't make any difference between body and no body as to whether or not you're a 'person'.
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
I'd have to look for it but i
I'd have to look for it but i am pretty sure they made distinction between cloned flesh, which i assume would be directed growth for perfect replication, and a grown from scratch body. Pretty sure those in dead storage do not count towards population since they are inactive, and I was specifically talking about forking but yes agi's would also have their legal status being murky, even muses.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Um... It was a test all along!
Whoops :P I'm not sure where I had one year from for physical development. Replace that with "Two years" :D. As for mental development... well, no one said they had to be stable. If you wanted sane egos, you should have put that in the design brief :P More seriously, it's unclear why exactly the Lost went bonkers, and from a certain point of view it worked... they are fully developed adult egos, albeit with a couple of foibles and eccentricities. And Mind Powers.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
Statistics!
Ok, so there are a couple of assumptions that you will have to keep in mind in this debate, one of which ThatWhichNeverWas has already pointed out: time is subjective, which means that if you are going for *mental* age then you are going to have to account for programmers who use a lot of x60 simulspaces for their projects, and egos in cold storage who are just as much "people" as infomorphs but they are effectively in an x0 simspace (or something like an x.5). If you are going by physical age, then even among the Jovians there's a very good chance that grandma still looks like a pinup model because of rejuv treatments and the effects of low/microgravity on the (trans)human body. Even things like skin elasticity, scarification, weight gain and "sagging" have been altered so physical cues are going out the window. Example: living in a tin can hab in microgravity means the character has little to no exposure to UV radiation which will in turn mean that less collagen destruction - less wrinkles and more robust skin. In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress we learned that certain... assets to the female anatomy, when not constantly competing with gravity, sag less (if at all) over time. So if you toss in treatments for menopause and the diet regulation that most morphs have, you lose a lot of fat accumulation and secondary effects; hell, even modern surgical techniques and hair dye make a difference. Meaning, by modern terms, even someone in their birth morph will look younger longer - I fully expect a micrograv human will look 20 until they are at least 50 with a little touch-up. So, the solar system is going to be populated by a vast majority of young adult biomorphs unless the instanced ego has made a conscious decision to display age - because it's simpler to be young than not. As far as the actual ego age, it's going to be screwy and continue to be so. From the absolute metric of the human evacuation of Earth, you're going to have to think about *how* someone survived, their relative base population, and where they ended up.
Sudo drop your weapon.
FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
Heuristics!
As far as the actual ego age, it's going to be screwy and continue to be so. From the absolute metric of the human evacuation of Earth, you're going to have to think about *how* someone survived, their relative base population, and where they ended up. Original Space Colonists and their ilk are going to be comparatively low in their base population, but monstrously high in their core survival rates. With the exception of a few habitats and lunar/martian settlements, the great diaspora protected the vast majority of the settler breeds. I'm talking at least an 80% survival rate; at the same time, their base population is more likely to be measured in the m-Millions than the b-Billions. This also means you'd likely have a tendency towards the higher end of the age spectrum, based off of the age of majority plus the time difference between the Fall and the start of the space colonization push. Also, spacers adopted new tech faster, especially including backups and cortical stacks. Your bell curve is less likely to be changed based on attrition than simply "who was willing to go to space". On Earth, there were populations in the billions if not trillions. That means a whole helluva lot of people. That also means that they were bottlenecked getting out, and you are going to have a survival rate, charitably, at 30% (I would guess closer to '3' would be accurate). That means it is still likely that Terran-native egos are the majority of the absolute value of population, but with the culling OSC's are now a significant core population. Of that, you would have to break it down along a basis of cultural, economic, and escape-methodological differences. The lowest SES economies and the hardest hit initial targets will have the highest relative population loss. I expect China was among the hardest hit, but continental Africa, significant portions of South America, most of Russia, India, and anyone not evacuated from the core regions of Australia would be wiped out, and only exclude the wealthiest or most closely resident 20%. Africa has access to a space elevator, but even with the inherent advantages of physical evacuation, you're still in trouble. So by extension, we can guess that a fair portion of the population will be of European or Asian breedstock, with other phenotypes better represented by subcultures that adapted to the European metaculture. Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that the most affected cultures would be nearly wiped out by AF-0, or at least melded to the point where there is no significant difference by town, nation or locality. Simply put, I expect "Texan" to mean something in AF10 (even if only on Luna), but "Columbian" would not - or at least it would be so jumbled with Venezuelan, Costa Rican, Guatemalan, etc to be unrecognizeable to its progenitors. So then we have evacuation methods. As far as actually getting off of Earth, there are 2 major methods - physically and egocasted. Egocasting would be the method of choice for the middle class, the poor, and anyone who is not logistically near enough to lifting stations to be able to use them. Fortunately, egocasting is also simpler, faster, and more economical. You could have en-masse migrations off-world, and barring the odd comms mishap, the only thing that can endanger an egocast expedition is the data being sent to a facility that is itself destroyed. Otherwise, you are talking hundreds of people a day until the facility is overrun. This also means there will be less preselection based on age or skill. You will have more of your standard bell-curve of population distribution, where the mean will be your new cultural "middle age" (my guess would be between 40-60); the only exceptions would be the unborn and the excessively aged with concurrent mental problems (I highly doubt a broadcasting station would waste emergency time on someone with alzheimers or dementia). While they would be more numerous, we already know that there is a vast difference between the number of infomorphs and actual morphs, and we also know a significant number of them ended up in cold storage. This would mean that, while you have your standard bell curve, a lot of them (especially the younger and egregiously older egos) would be very likely to end up in cold storage because they are less useful. This skews your population count a bit. As for physical lifts, you have 2 sub-options - ground based liftoff and orbital elevators. In either case, physical escape is obscenely risky - while egocasting could lose maybe up to 10% of the total evacuated population, physical evac was slaughtered. This means your likely subset of the human population would be given at best 50/50 odds. On the plus side, those that do make it would have a morph and therefore be least likely to go into cold storage - meaning that those who survive would age (relatively) normally. Best guess says that the very richest would evacuate physically when they could - say the top 5-10% of humanity. The upper-middle class would be next, with some of the lower classes possibly thrown in as well. As far as the middle class is concerned, age is the enemy. That means that you will have a strong bias towards either the extremely qualified (through money or merit), or the young. I would put my mean at 20 - you are going to have a lot of child liftoffs, middle aged tactical assets, scientific/industrial assets, and the oldest would either be the very richest or the very best humanity has to offer. So with those heuristics in place, in AF10 we can estimate that the vast majority of people over 70 were in space in the first place, were very very rich, or very very good (say 1% of Earth's population). You will also have a significant number of 60~90 year old egos in cold storage, never aging and skewing your distribution. The majority of your active survivors will be from the 30-50 age range as consumnate professionals who escaped the earth on a combination of their own merits and extraordinairy luck (or being valuable by rights of uniqueness, like uplifted whales). Your children of the fall will be in their teens and 20's (or in cold storage) - anyone too young to mount a cortical stack would probably not be egocasted nor survive escape velocity. Birth rate is low, so we can now see a very strong biased bell curve in favor of 30-50 with a steep falloff at around 70.
Sudo drop your weapon.
FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
Omissions!
I'll also freely admit that I am operating off of my own present-day sociocultural lens. You could easily have a bias in favor of age, in which case my estimate could be 20-30 years off, but I get the feeling my line of thought is consistent enough to at least be useful for a logical framework. Also worth noting: assuming they survive the escape, do not die in transit, and can find the resources in a habitat to support their morph, most physical escapees would have an economic leg up on other evacuees. Which means that, while I believe the vast majority of native Africans would die (sorry), those that survive would be in the higher echelons of whatever society they adapt to.
Sudo drop your weapon.
jKaiser jKaiser's picture
Re: the Lost - my pet theory
Re: the Lost - my pet theory is that it's less to do with the time acceleration and more with the fact that raising children in simulspace gives them a justifiable sense of solipsism, which compounded with natural childhood cruelty, enhanced intelligence, and no doubt quite a few fuckups on Cognite's half, essentially tailor made a population ripe for a very violent clash of realities. And note that by the books, that was before Watts-MacLeod got into their skulls.