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On Religion in the Transhumanist Future

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Colin Chapman Colin Chapman's picture
On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Just read the second part of the BlueAlien interview, and wanted to give my hearty congrats and thumbs-up to the devs for their outlook regarding religion in the Transhumanist future. Too many rpgs seem to assume that religion (inevitably existing monotheistic religion) is, and always will be, absolutely core to human identity and understanding, or are too frightened to address the issue of how human advancement could well shatter such religious faiths. Are there always going to be some people who need religion or other superstitions to provide them with emotional or psychological support? Yes. But with increased human understanding of the universe and our own ability to manipulate areas previously considered purely the domain of the "divine", mainstream religion as it stands would be hard pressed to continue, and like you noted, would most likely fall by the wayside for the majority of Mankind. cheers! Colin

Radioactive Ape Designs: ENnie and Indie Award nominated publisher of Atomic Highway!
http://radioactiveapedesigns.com

GregH GregH's picture
...actually, it sounds like
...actually, it sounds like EP is going to challenge a LOT of conventional thinking and notions. The part about characters not wanting to give up their bodies and the whole idea of leaving THAT body and letting someone else USE it... sounds like a lot for players to get their heads around (plus such notions of Slime Mold aliens, self-faxing to other worlds, reputation as currency, and sans Catgirl Transhumanism). It's like Rob and the gang have made a deliberate effort to avoid as much of what has been covered before as possible (which from the interview was their apparent intent all along). ... It sounds like a good, braceing cold shower, shocks you then get's your full attention. This is going to be a wild ride. I'm reminded of "Schismatrix"... life IS constant change... deal!
Colin Chapman Colin Chapman's picture
Absolutely. Frankly, as much
Absolutely. Frankly, as much as I often enjoy the old tropes, it's about time someone produced a sci-fi rpg that takes the progression of human technology and understanding to its extremes and beyond, and actually raises and addresses some of the big questions that would inevitably emerge. I wouldn't say it has shocked me (from what I've read thus far, anyway), but it certainly has placed a rather large smile on my face. Most refreshing to see something break from the typical mire.

Radioactive Ape Designs: ENnie and Indie Award nominated publisher of Atomic Highway!
http://radioactiveapedesigns.com

GregH GregH's picture
Here's the big one I'm
Here's the big one I'm wondering about (Rob, guys, anything to add?). What about the other "R"... reproduction. We're talking about people with different bodies, forking, genetic alteration, and it already sounds like the issue of overpopulation is more concerning freeing up memory than finding sustainable living space. Can't wait to see where EP may take the traditional nuclear family (if such a thing still exists). Cloned children suing for support? Mother was a resleeved AI in a fertile biological shell? Etc all. Mind you, it sounds like the main issue is making sure there IS a transhumanity left to handle all these little issues from techno/theological debates to wether or not one wants a baby grown in a test tube or simulated into existence via a darn good VR system. But it's the background bits (no matter how odd they go) that really helps make the game memorable don't it?
Colin Chapman Colin Chapman's picture
Yep, it most assuredly
Yep, it most assuredly provides a great deal of game fodder and possibilities, not to mention food for thought.

Radioactive Ape Designs: ENnie and Indie Award nominated publisher of Atomic Highway!
http://radioactiveapedesigns.com

black campbell black campbell's picture
Very excited about the game.
A friend of mine turned me onto the website and the game a few nights ago. I think the setting alone is worth the price of admission. Very excited to see a science fiction game that, as the other posters have mentioned, is not mired in classic or cyberpunk thinking. I agree that religions would change with the massive change that this game setting implies, but disagree that it would disappear. Some people will always need some sort of higher purpose to their lives, if only to have someplace to land blame for the crap in their lives. Also nice to see Colin C posting. The HEX boards are a little quiet of late.
Colin Chapman Colin Chapman's picture
Heh, thanks for the kind
Heh, thanks for the kind words, mate. I've been quiet HEX-wise primarily because I'm writing my own rpg at the moment, but if you (or anyone else) is interested in playtesting, drop me an e-mail at oaklynx@yahoo.co.uk Colin

Radioactive Ape Designs: ENnie and Indie Award nominated publisher of Atomic Highway!
http://radioactiveapedesigns.com

Decivre Decivre's picture
Actually, I doubt that
Actually, I doubt that overpopulation will be that big a deal in the far future. With the potential for artificial habitats, as well as a morph that allows you to live on the corona of the sun (which is 11,913 times the size of the surface of the earth, thank you Wolfram Alpha) means there is plenty of room for people to live.

That said, I do agree that the concept of family is going to change dramatically. When your mind is no longer tied to your body, and therefore your genes, things like genetic paternity may largely go out the window (unless they are old-fashioned about making their kids, and keep their original bodies around for that purpose). Moreover, concepts like adultery would have to change in some ways. If your husband's backup mind gets put in another body, effectively creating the existence of two of your husband, does the other one have the right to sleep with other women?

Hell, more to the point, sex itself would change. Things that are normally taboos today will become completely acceptable norms (such as sleeping with someone who's body is genetically a different species from your body). Hell, there could be fetish clubs where your spouse can jump into whatever body you desire to have sex with... do you want your wife to be a 12-year old girl or a dog today? It's creepy now, but would it be when social attachments to blood and body have gone the wayside?
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
GregH GregH's picture
...so when the captain says
...so when the captain says his "first love is the ship" that means...
Decivre Decivre's picture
It very well could. Then,
It very well could. Then, every so often, the ship's intelligence jumps into an "entertainment morph", and they get on with the marital duties. Maybe he even installs an artificial womb system on one of the lower decks, in case they want to start a family (or already have).

How's that for breaking the old nuclear family concept?
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
doctorbadwolf doctorbadwolf's picture
I don't care if I have to beg
I don't care if I have to beg whoever GMs and then houserule a bit, I want to play a pilot whose mother was literally his father's ship. Possibly flying in his sibling, somehow. On other notes: It might be difficult to seriously maintain any sexual taboos in such a future. Imagine: the reason that incest is bad, always, is that you are too genetically similar for mating to be good for the bloodline. That would not be an issue when you can alter your own genetic structure. How would agism, and thus age of sexual consent laws stand up in this future? Oh god...would there still be a 4chan? Would they still rule 34 things? would this be bad or good? I want to cry now...:P Anyway,religion. I've always been annoyed by the star trek assumption that religion pretty much goes away when people start hanging out in space and things get all advancified.:P It just doesn't make sense. Human nature would make the natural inclination of a person raised by a religious parent to rationalize their religion with their enviroment. Already there are people who view the world scientifically, except that they have faith in a given religion. Some of them are raised with no religious pressure from their parents. Hell, I'm one of them. I think some specific religions would see a downturn, but other might well see and increase. Worship of Odin, for instance, has been growing over the last few decades, along with the other Norse gods. Would not a god who travels between worlds, and withstood great physical pain and scaring to attain powerful information, appeal to people in a setting like this?
GregH GregH's picture
...don't forget Eschatology
...don't forget Eschatology and "The Omega Point", that shows up in a number of more current sf stories (including some Transhuman ones). In other cases, expansion into the solar system and beyond may not so much lead to the end of religion as much as it may present evidence that tests one's faith in the motivations of God(s). Arthur C Clarke's "The Star" is probably the best tales about one such situation.
oboreruhito Anonymous's picture
an artificial womb
an artificial womb system
"Launch the drones!"

"We're out of drones, captain!"

"Hmm. Then put some Barry White on the loudspeakers while I get down to the womb deck."

Sunchaser Sunchaser's picture
Re: I don't care if I have to beg
doctorbadwolf wrote:
Anyway,religion. I've always been annoyed by the star trek assumption that religion pretty much goes away when people start hanging out in space and things get all advancified.:P It just doesn't make sense. Human nature would make the natural inclination of a person raised by a religious parent to rationalize their religion with their enviroment. Already there are people who view the world scientifically, except that they have faith in a given religion. Some of them are raised with no religious pressure from their parents. Hell, I'm one of them. I think some specific religions would see a downturn, but other might well see and increase. Worship of Odin, for instance, has been growing over the last few decades, along with the other Norse gods. Would not a god who travels between worlds, and withstood great physical pain and scaring to attain powerful information, appeal to people in a setting like this?
I agree that religion will always exist in some form or other. In many ways religion seemed to me as much a evolutionary development as the hand or the eye. As a coping mechanism it helps sentient beings stay sane and resolute in a harsh world. That's not an inconsiderable survival edge. In a future like that of Eclipse Phase religion will do what it has always done when faced with new knowledge...it will adapt and create new paradigms. You can clearly see this in the relationship between science and the Catholic Church throughout its history. Sure the Church had its moments of book burnings and inquisitions...but at the same time if offered sanctuaries & opportunities for men of science to flourish. Copernicus and Mendel.
Iv Iv's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I am of the opinion that religions are not about gods and angels, but ultimately about life after death. The goal of every religion on earth is to provide a framework of belief where the death is not the end of the mind. I think that EP's setting where someone sufficiently concerned can live for a very long time, have at least provoked great changes in most religions. I can see people believing in a soul refusing to transfer themselves, considering virtual minds to be puppets mimicking life. Concerning the christian religions (those I know better) I can see them coming back to the doctrine they had in the early middle age : focusing on the imminent end of the world and the need for a global remission of humans (instead of the current focus on individual responsibility, guilt, and place in heaven) I haven't read all the settings yet but I could easily see some people worshipping actual AIs, a la Count Zero. After all, isn't karma the ultimate reputation currency ?
Wayfinder Wayfinder's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I totally disagree with the belief that religion will "fall by the wayside," because in truth the more we learn about the universe the more faith is strengthened. Perhaps it may change, but this idea that transhumanism will undermine the belief in a Creator is silly. Indeed, it may demonstrate the existence of the soul, though I'm sure the crack-pot humanists like Richard Dawkins will probably explain it away as purely the result of genes despite his lack of evidence. Without faith, there can be no philosophical sense of purpose, and no direct sense of individuality. Before you go flying off the handle, understand that humanism and atheism are forms of faith as well, equally, if not more so, filled with superstition.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I agree that religion will continue. Why is religion important to humanity (and will be important to transhumanity)? Because there will always be questions without answers, and answers without solid proof. I think that EP was right to say that certain religions will fair better then others (like Hinduism where reincarnation is now not just a religious belief, but a proven fact) but I highly doubt that we would ever totally get rid of religion in our lives. I really wished that EP would have got into what new religions would have sparked up since the Fall and why (an example I would like to know what religion uplifts follow). I think that certain fringe religions today (like scientology) may actually gain root as their crazy ideas now, are not so crazy in the EP universe.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Iv Iv's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Well, believers in the soul will probably have to acknowledge it can be uploaded, copied, degraded, all through technological processes then :-) Maybe this can lead this thread in a flaming trollfest (but the title pretty much promises it) but I can be the "crack-pot humanist" if there is such need. At the core of EP game design, there is the belief that the mind is not made of matter, energy, or another thing calld 'soul' but rather of pure information. Copy it, swap it, transmit it. 'Soul' is so loosely defined that it could be understood to be compatible with this idea or to be mutually exclusive with it. But in an universe where life and the existence of the human specie itself is threatened, I have no doubt that belief in new transcendentalisms will arise. Either from completely new dogma or mixed with a Christian sauce implying Jesus and Teilhard de Chardin-like philosophy. That gives me an intriguing idea : Muslims have the Mecca, Jews have the land of Israel, to a lesser extent, Christians have the tomb of Jesus, all located on Earth. Are there people calling for the liberation of these places ?
Matrix Matrix's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Iv wrote:
That gives me an intriguing idea : Muslims have the Mecca, Jews have the land of Israel, to a lesser extent, Christians have the tomb of Jesus, all located on Earth. Are there people calling for the liberation of these places ?
Well, IIRC, these religions are pretty much dead, since they refused to adapt to new technologies and such. There may still be people who want to do that just for their historic significance (the symbols for which millions were killed - who wouldn't want to see that?), but I'd say they're just a small part of whatever the faction that calls for reclaiming the entirety of Earth is. Yes, I'm an atheist. So?
Sunchaser Sunchaser's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Iv wrote:
That gives me an intriguing idea : Muslims have the Mecca, Jews have the land of Israel, to a lesser extent, Christians have the tomb of Jesus, all located on Earth. Are there people calling for the liberation of these places ?
I think that would be a logical supposition. There would probably be plenty of religionists (relative to their numbers in the setting) calling for crusades, jyhads, or whatever to reclaim ancient holy lands. But the very events that exiled humanity from earth and destroyed faith in the old religions works against any chance these people could pull it off. They just don't have the resources or numbers to do it. Good source of adventure scenarios though. Catholics attempting to retrieve important texts from the Vatican, Muslims trying to retrieve the bodies of Shiia saints from ancient tombs, that kind of stuff. Not to mention competition from those looking for authentic artifacts to sell for profit. Extropian Jones and the Temple of Doom! I find the whole idea that religion will just dry up and blow away in the hard light of science to be a bit naive. Religious memes are remarkably tenacious and adaptable as circumstances change. They seem to draw on something foundational to the way humans think that makes them a 'tough stain' to remove. Even some people who resist the idea of religion can be found mimicking the behavior of the religious just filtered through an atheistic lens. Fanaticism and pig-headedness is hardly unique to the religious.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Matrix wrote:
Iv wrote:
That gives me an intriguing idea : Muslims have the Mecca, Jews have the land of Israel, to a lesser extent, Christians have the tomb of Jesus, all located on Earth. Are there people calling for the liberation of these places ?
Well, IIRC, these religions are pretty much dead, since they refused to adapt to new technologies and such. There may still be people who want to do that just for their historic significance (the symbols for which millions were killed - who wouldn't want to see that?), but I'd say they're just a small part of whatever the faction that calls for reclaiming the entirety of Earth is. Yes, I'm an atheist. So?
I thought Islam lived on. There are several settlements on both Luna and Mars (I will have to double check the book of course). Christianity is all but dead now though. Judaism was on the decline before the fall as to be Jewish is more then just having the religious beliefs, you actually have to have Jewish blood in you. There may have been a handful of Jews that escaped the Fall but I would expect that they would slowly lose their culture and their identity as Jewish.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Matrix Matrix's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
TBRMInsanity wrote:
I thought Islam lived on. There are several settlements on both Luna and Mars (I will have to double check the book of course).
Really? *flips through the PDF* Really.
Quote:
Islam, while still holding some most controversial views and values, managed to adapt by accepting a more liberal and even secular view.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Matrix wrote:
TBRMInsanity wrote:
I thought Islam lived on. There are several settlements on both Luna and Mars (I will have to double check the book of course).
Really? *flips through the PDF* Really.
Quote:
Islam, while still holding some most controversial views and values, managed to adapt by accepting a more liberal and even secular view.
Never underestimate the power that faith has on people. It does make we wonder if the Hajj is now done on Luna (when it is directly above Mecca at the exact right time), or if Islam has given up on the Hajj till the Earth is liberated again (kinda like how the Jews gave up many of their traditions when the temple was last destroyed.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Sunchaser Sunchaser's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Never underestimate the power that faith has on people. It does make we wonder if the Hajj is now done on Luna (when it is directly above Mecca at the exact right time), or if Islam has given up on the Hajj till the Earth is liberated again (kinda like how the Jews gave up many of their traditions when the temple was last destroyed.
The Hajj going symbolically to someplace on Luna because its nearest Mecca makes a lot of sense. And I suppose which way to kneel and say prayers (or even what to do if you can't kneel in microgravity) in space would of been long since addressed by a coalition of Islamic scholars so that wouldn't be a problem. Lots of other nitpicky problems would need to be addressed for the new environments. I could see the shattered Muslim survivors re-creating a Islamic caliphate as a central Islamic authority...even to the point of creating Islamic stations to be their new bastions. Would be an interesting contrast to a Catholic Church that remains fragmented and leaderless after the Fall.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Sunchaser wrote:
I could see the shattered Muslim survivors re-creating a Islamic caliphate as a central Islamic authority...even to the point of creating Islamic stations to be their new bastions. Would be an interesting contrast to a Catholic Church that remains fragmented and leaderless after the Fall.
Funny that EP states that Christianity basically destroyed by the Fall but Islam is not (though it took a huge hit). I would have thought that some of the more decentralized denominations would have lived on (like the United Church, Lutherans, Methodists, etc). These denominations don't need a single religious leader to maintain their faith as they all view the community as the church (not the building). I assume though that as a GM if I really wanted to, I could always introduce a Christian station, or community into one of my games if it fit the story line.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Iv Iv's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Note that Arabic is said to be the most spoken language in EP. It suggests that a lot of Arabic people (and therefore a high percentage of muslims) managed to escape before the Fall. Unless I missed something, I don't think this is explained. We can imagine various explanations : - Arabic countries could have been less involved in the great military conflicts and therefore had less spaceships shot down when escaping. - African nations (amongst who Arabic is common) had more big hauler and space port (Africa occupying a bigger part of the equator) compared to others. - For some reason TITAN attacked arabic nations last. Maybe they were more cautious about not using infected technologies or maybe they did not shoot TITANs on sight when they first appeared. - Some crazy prophecy was popular amongst the muslims and resulted into many countries taking their precautions. Maybe there were some argonaut, ETI or Factor's hand in this. (Firewall should investigate it !) - Some wealthy and wise imam or arabic leader recognized the TITAN for the threat it was when it first appeared, and prepared for a massive exodus (by financing habitats or Lunar extension) long before all the others did. I wonder how much of this is inspired by the imam character in Accelerando. I also wonder if some virus really simulates the paradise of Islam and whether it actually locks up believers.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Iv wrote:
Note that Arabic is said to be the most spoken language in EP. It suggests that a lot of Arabic people (and therefore a high percentage of muslims) managed to escape before the Fall. Unless I missed something, I don't think this is explained. We can imagine various explanations : - Arabic countries could have been less involved in the great military conflicts and therefore had less spaceships shot down when escaping. - African nations (amongst who Arabic is common) had more big hauler and space port (Africa occupying a bigger part of the equator) compared to others. - For some reason TITAN attacked arabic nations last. Maybe they were more cautious about not using infected technologies or maybe they did not shoot TITANs on sight when they first appeared. - Some crazy prophecy was popular amongst the muslims and resulted into many countries taking their precautions. Maybe there were some argonaut, ETI or Factor's hand in this. (Firewall should investigate it !) - Some wealthy and wise imam or arabic leader recognized the TITAN for the threat it was when it first appeared, and prepared for a massive exodus (by financing habitats or Lunar extension) long before all the others did. I wonder how much of this is inspired by the imam character in Accelerando. I also wonder if some virus really simulates the paradise of Islam and whether it actually locks up believers.
Related to this, some of the most richest people in the world live in Arabic countries (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Jordan, etc) and as such would have a better chance of buying a civilian escape craft during the Fall. Even though there were atrocities occurring during the fall (like the bombing of a civilian Brazillian transport), military and hypercorp spacecraft would have been the main targets and as such these rich financiers would have had a better chance at escaping (or at least uploading off the Earth). Being good Muslims they would have been instrumental in the restoration of Mosques where ever they settled (most likely Luna and Mars). I would go as far as to say that maybe Luna would be considered a Holy site (crescent moon and all) for Muslims now and I wouldn't be surprised if the imams state that when Mohammed was raised to heaven he stopped on Luna first (heck as a GM plot you could have a settlement on Luna that is the heavenly replacement for Mecca, and the new site for the Hajj).
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nostromo1a1 nostromo1a1's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I find the discussion interesting, and also am amazed that the suggestion that a new living god concept has not come up. seems that every major change in society breeds a need for people to lose some sense of sanity and follow some crazed idiot with an even crazier idea or line of crap. religious cults through out history if driven by the dire existence of the fall lead to new religious followings. old Gods and other beliefs have nothing on the need for people to need some higher imanginary being to make them feel better, who grants instruction through some divine mediator, who in turn controls the masses and manipulates the socio-political body to further the claimed needs of a grouping of peoples. most believe only primitive people fall sucker to advanced society, it's teaching, as well as dogma in whatever form it takes. Yet fail to look around to the desperate, following someone with all the apparent answers in their own backyard.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
That is why I always dispute the idea that humanity will eventually give up religion. I do imagine that there are thousands of micro-cults in EP (each with their own station, dogma, etc), in fact the book states that there are new religions that praise the TITANS and rue the fact that they were not part of the chosen how were uploaded and taken to the heavens during the fall.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Matrix wrote:
Yes, I'm an atheist. So?
You're not alone.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Yogo Ted Yogo Ted's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Religions have adapted over time with varying degrees of success, but I'm fairly certain that at least some of them are still going to be part of people's life post-Singularity. Coming into this late I know, but think about history. The Catholic church has been disgustingly slow adopting new technology and scientific advances and alot of really basic stuff, but they have continued to make just enough concessions to remain viable. Also, if Catholicism didn't make it off of Earth, did The Pope? Can I play as the Pope IN A FLYING ROBOT BODY?! I want that.
Iv Iv's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
In theory, a new pope can be elected. I am not an expert but I understand that if a bishop escaped the Fall, he can ordinate new priests. A cardinal is just a bishop promoted by the pope. I would say if no cardinal escaped the Fall, bishops can gather just as cardinals usually do and elect a new pope or elect cardinals that will in turn elect a pope. I can totally see the catholic hierarchy being almost invisible as 10 AF, because they are still bitching about who has a soul and who has not. Can an uploaded priest bless people ? Can you baptize an infomorph ? With virtual holy water ? Can a bishop fork itself ? How many votes should such an entity get in a council ? And so on... Maybe give them 10 more years to emerge. In the meantime, there is probably still people wearing Mary pendants and reciting prayers. I would expect a lot of them in the Jovian Republic. After all, bio-conservatism goes well along with a belief in the existence of the soul. Will there be a schism between the bio-Church (Holy Catholic Jovian Church) which only recognizes biological entities born from biological entities and the info-Church (Holy Catholic Distributed Church) that lives on the mesh as some sort of limbo, keeps a backup of every ordinated priest ever and grant every sentient entity services at demand ?
Matrix Matrix's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Yogo Ted wrote:
Also, if Catholicism didn't make it off of Earth, did The Pope? Can I play as the Pope IN A FLYING ROBOT BODY?! I want that.
[url=http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0806/pope-gundam-dem... Pope Gundam![/url] *Is shot. Repeatedly.*
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Matrix wrote:
Yogo Ted wrote:
Also, if Catholicism didn't make it off of Earth, did The Pope? Can I play as the Pope IN A FLYING ROBOT BODY?! I want that.
[url=http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0806/pope-gundam-dem... Pope Gundam![/url] *Is shot. Repeatedly.*
ROFLMAO I think that the Catholics have many issues that would have swamped them after the Fall. The biggest one that I saw was the issue of females sleeving into male morphs and then becoming priests. I would imagine that the Church would state that your ego is your soul (and would force Catholics to refer to their ego as a soul and not an ego as that is against the will of God). Further the fact that you can resleeve would be ok as it is the power of the Holy Spirit in the hands of skilled technicians to perform the miracle of resurrection. This would play well into Bio-Conservatism as you shouldn't take God's power for granted and resleeving should be done when absolutely necessary.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
The Catholic Church would probably still be around after the Fall. The Church has always been fairly adept at modifying itself to recruit new populations and accommodate contemporary cultural values...albeit at a 30-50 year lag time. The pre-Fall Church would probably have updated its dogma to accommodate things like life extension technologies and personality uploading. They'd lose the vast majority of their congregation, otherwise. The majority of main stream religions have become more liberal and progressive in their policies in modernity for this very reason. By the time of the Fall, Islam could have very well gone through it's version of the Enlightenment and that's why it's doing so well post-Fall. There will always be fundamental, dogmatic splinter groups. That's just the reactionary thinking you get with progress. I'm sure there are tons of crazy little habs out in the fringe full of mystery cults, gnostics, and hardcore primitive fundamentalists. As long as they don't get a hold of nukes or TITANtech, they could do whatever the hell they want. Here's the thing though: when you have immortality technology, you're eventually going to run out of people who shun immortality for ideological reasons. The immortals just have to wait them out. In a hundred years or so after the Fall everybody in the system will be Transhuman because the bio-conservatives either have a change of heart or expired of old age. I do believe that people will continue to build communities, albeit secular ones. They'll toss out the sermon and go directly to the coffee and donuts and picnics, to put in bluntly. The real world is already seeing this with the secular Church of Freethought (http://www.churchoffreethought.org/) or the spiritual (but vaguely so) Unitarian Universalist Church (http://www.uua.org/). In the universe of EP, we do see a trend of communities springing up around purely political and economic schools of thought...and, of course, the persistence of dogmatic nationalism in the Jovian Junta.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

puke puke's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
browwiw wrote:
when you have immortality technology, you're eventually going to run out of people who shun immortality for ideological reasons. The immortals just have to wait them out. In a hundred years or so after the Fall everybody in the system will be Transhuman because the bio-conservatives either hand a change of hear or expired of old age.
really now? that must be why developed first world nations with their longer lifespans and better health are outlasting all the poor people in less desireable places, gradually pushing the worlds standard of living ever higher as they die off and we dont as quickly. whats that you say? thats not happening? theyre out breeding us? huh. who'd have thought. but to the main topic, advances in science and better understanding of the nature of consiousness doesnt preclude religion. many scientists are very religious people, and im not talking religious dogmatics either. ideas on evolution, big bang, and quantum indetermanancy dont invalidate the idea of a creator. indeed, some of those theories even foster the idea of pantheism. I think the real polarizing ideas in EP arent religious ones though, but social and economic philosophies. i think this is where the meat of the conflict is designed to be.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Except for things like that AIDS outbreak in Africa, right, puke? Have the majority of your off spring die before puberty and then only have a average life span of 48 years yourself does not equate to long term success. This sounds cruel, but third world countries with population booms are like bacteria eating up all the culture medium in their petri dish. There will be a lethal tipping point. Hopefully in the RL world we can reverse this by ousting things like ignorance and harmful dogma and introducing like education and modern medicine. I suspect that this was how transhumanism was spread in the universe of EP. Most people got educated and made the switch. Those too entrenched in their traditional dogmas chose to become part of history. And I'm not a big fan of the non overlapping magisteria school of thought. Superstition quite simply can't survive in a world where the scientific process and objective observation are the norm. As we progress technologically as a society there are fewer and slimmer gaps for the gods to fill. In a world like EP, where lifelogging and sousvelliance are ubiquitous, there will be very little room for gods of 'personal revelation'.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

puke puke's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
browwiw wrote:
Except for things like that AIDS outbreak in Africa, right, puke?
no, not really like that at all. i couldnt figure out how to scale an image to the forum width, so i just linked it. http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/popgrowthsince_15... i agree that third world population booms arent helping anyone, including them. but i think we'll all agree -- at least in principal -- that scarcity is the only thing that limits population. its not just an opinion thing, its based on historical data. in developing places, its scarcity of food. in developed places, its the scarecity of resources that allow for a comfortable individual standard of living. in either place, it self regulates. EP is bodering on a post scarcity scociety. if a population group was evangelical and motivated by a desire to spread its beliefs / colonize / convert, even at the expense of individual wellfare, well then its going to be a stronger competitor than a population group that is motivated to increase the wellfare of the individual. immortality isnt the end-all be-all here. i wish it was, but thats just my own wishfull thinking.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
browwiw wrote:
And I'm not a big fan of the non overlapping magisteria school of thought. Superstition quite simply can't survive in a world where the scientific process and objective observation are the norm. As we progress technologically as a society there are fewer and slimmer gaps for the gods to fill. In a world like EP, where lifelogging and sousvelliance are ubiquitous, there will be very little room for gods of 'personal revelation'.
I'm sorry I totally disagree with this statement. There will always be room for superstition, and religion (and they are mutually exclusive IMHO). Just look at China, a technologically advanced country, yet millions of Chinese citizens still follow age old superstitions like drinking hot water when your sick. Likewise there are devote followers of almost every religion that are also some of the leading authorities in areas such as Mathematics, Astronomy, Physics, and Chemistry. Superstition can take hold in any culture that has forgotten why they do certain actions (such as boiling water to kill viruses). Religion is more then just the answers to questions with no answers, it is also a driving force in people's lives, gives them reason to live each day to the fullest, and to do what is for the betterment of others and themselves (and not just themselves). Without religion I would argue that we would never have things like Law, culture, and etiquette.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Ok, TBRM, you seem like an open-minded individual, so I'm not going to be too incredibly offended by your post.
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Religion is more then just the answers to questions with no answers, it is also a driving force in people's lives, gives them reason to live each day to the fullest, and to do what is for the betterment of others and themselves (and not just themselves). Without religion I would argue that we would never have things like Law, culture, and etiquette.
Ok, so using that premise, you are saying that I, as an atheist, have no meaning in my life, have no purpose, have no reason to care about others, and pretty much lack all morals? Nope. Nada. Incorrect. Logical fallacy. Sorry. We are social creatures. Social apes, to be exact. We have survived and thrived due to our capacity for empathy and cooperation (granted, natural selection has also given us a quiver of arrows along with this social toolbox). We do good things and care about other people because it's an excellent survival strategy and evolution has reinforced it. Religion and spirituality are extant of these social urges. Religion is extant of man's natural empathy towards his neighbor, not the other way around. Religion and culture are constructs of our own innate biases. Superstition and a sense of the supernatural are products of the fact that we are also pattern recognizing apes. Pattern recognition is actually one of defining traits of humans as a species. Google 'paradolia'. That pattern finding function of our brain is why we see faces in automobile grills and puppies in the clouds. It's also why we think movement in tall grass might be a tiger. It's a solid survival trait. It's also why we think our house is haunted when the AC makes the lampshades sway. In a world such as EP where your very sensory inputs are constantly recorded and played back is why superstition can't reasonably exist. If you claim to have seen a ghost or leprechaun running around the hab, your friends can just download your memory data and study the claim for themselves. Sure, there will be people that will absolutely believe they say what they saw, but they will have even fewer legs to stand on than they do now in the real world. So, yes, religion and superstition will probably exist into a future like that of EP, but those possessed of it will have to rely totally on the fact it's an irrational feeling and can't say that they had a 'personal revelation'.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Your right browwiw I try to be open minded, and my statement about with out religion there would be no law, culture and etiquette is still true. If you take a class in art history you will notice that all of the oldest art is religious in nature, in fact event prehistory art has a pseudo-religious bend to it. You can dismiss this as humans being pattern recognizing apes, but the fact is religion has been and will be a driving force in human (and transhuman) life. I would also argue that with more sensory input and the ability to replay past recordings that some superstition would only increase. Superstitious acts like boiling water can be proven to be helpful and thus reinforce the superstition (regardless of why the superstitious act is helpful or harmful). As you pointed out superstitions are irrational thoughts that gave early humans an evolutionary advantage. Even though they are irrational they are still advantageous and people are not likely to let go of them any time soon.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Truthfully, I think Eclipse Phase dropped the ball on this. In my games, I'm going to reverse it; Christianity is the one who's still alive and kicking, while Islam is the one that all but died. Christianity is, as a religion, infinitely more flexible than Islam is; Islam translates to "submission to God" for a reason, and the only Muslims who properly practice their religion are the likes of Al Qaeda or are simply lying in wait for their enemies (read: everyone who's not a Muslim or a dhimmi) to be suitably weakened so that they can take over. It is [i]not[/i] a peaceful religion, no matter what they might tell you; they're either mistaken, uneducated, or lying. Christianity, on the other hand, has a zillion sects, is loosely structured, and is pretty much just "accept Jesus and go to Heaven when you die". Much simpler and more friendly than Islam's "Submit to God." Pretty much everyone but the asshole athiests in a Western country is a Christian of some variety or another, and a disaster like the Fall is just going to bring that back to the forefront. If all your family is dead (and almost everyone lost someone), that reverend that reminds you that they're happy in Heaven with God now is a big relief. In any case, Religion and Science need not conflict. I, personally, am both an ardent Transhumanist and a die-hard Christian, and I see no reason why they need be seperated. God created the universe, and he did so in a fashion that was exquisitely elegant. In the end, all of Creation boils down to a few pages of equations, and God prefers to avoid violating them unneccessarilly. Quantum Mechanics was the means through which He granted us free will; as time branches with every decision we make, this allows us to make moral decisions while still giving God omniscient knowledge of the future. Time is a tree; we just see the branch we're on, while God is outside the tree and sees the entire thing. Angels, similarly, are just robots, that were misinterpreted by primitive humans as being supernatural in nature. Similarly, UFOs are actually angels, that were misinterpreted by modern humans as being aliens. Ophanim are your flying saucers, and Cherubim are a variety of fighter jets.

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
nick012000 wrote:
Truthfully, I think Eclipse Phase dropped the ball on this. In my games, I'm going to reverse it; Christianity is the one who's still alive and kicking, while Islam is the one that all but died. Christianity is, as a religion, infinitely more flexible than Islam is; Islam translates to "submission to God" for a reason, and the only Muslims who properly practice their religion are the likes of Al Qaeda or are simply lying in wait for their enemies (read: everyone who's not a Muslim or a dhimmi) to be suitably weakened so that they can take over. It is [i]not[/i] a peaceful religion, no matter what they might tell you; they're either mistaken, uneducated, or lying. Christianity, on the other hand, has a zillion sects, is loosely structured, and is pretty much just "accept Jesus and go to Heaven when you die". Much simpler and more friendly than Islam's "Submit to God." Pretty much everyone but the asshole athiests in a Western country is a Christian of some variety or another, and a disaster like the Fall is just going to bring that back to the forefront. If all your family is dead (and almost everyone lost someone), that reverend that reminds you that they're happy in Heaven with God now is a big relief. In any case, Religion and Science need not conflict. I, personally, am both an ardent Transhumanist and a die-hard Christian, and I see no reason why they need be seperated. God created the universe, and he did so in a fashion that was exquisitely elegant. In the end, all of Creation boils down to a few pages of equations, and God prefers to avoid violating them unneccessarilly. Quantum Mechanics was the means through which He granted us free will; as time branches with every decision we make, this allows us to make moral decisions while still giving God omniscient knowledge of the future. Time is a tree; we just see the branch we're on, while God is outside the tree and sees the entire thing. Angels, similarly, are just robots, that were misinterpreted by primitive humans as being supernatural in nature. Similarly, UFOs are actually angels, that were misinterpreted by modern humans as being aliens. Ophanim are your flying saucers, and Cherubim are a variety of fighter jets.
While I don't agree with everything you say, you do bring up some good points. Christianity is more resilient to destruction then Islam (but not for the same reason you gave). Islam is not this big ugly evil empire your painting it to be. I've personally have worked in an Islamic country with Muslims as an open Christian and on average most Muslims are salt of the Earth type of people. The problem with Islam (with regards to EP) is that, as you pointed out, Islam is about submission to God and part of that submission to God is the 5 pillars. Two of those pillars are effectively destroyed with the FALL (Mecca is a radioactive hole in the ground like most cities on the Earth, and as such you can't pray towards Mecca, nor can you perform the Hajj either). Since Muslims would be denied the ability to submit to God, they would have to change their core beliefs and thus no longer be Muslim. The same situation would effect the Roman Catholic Church, with the Holy See destroyed, along with it goes the seat of Catholic leadership, its cardinals, and most of its doctrines. Now lucky for Christianity, as you also pointed out, there are many different sects that don't require the Pope to dictate how they worship. I also only partially agree with you on the point about science and religion not mixing. I tend to have a more scientific view when it comes to how things work in the universe, but I do believe that God uses the different laws of nature to shape and direct existence. I have an essay (which I've been meaning to post somewhere on these forums for a while now) that argues how you can see God in such things as Mathematics, Physics, Astronomy, and even Evolution. I would love to argue theology with you some time. I'm sure it would be enlightening.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Actually, I don't think that Muslims would have much of a theological problem if Mecca was turned into a radioactive crater. One of their rules is that if an unbeliever forces you to sin (by forcefeeding you bacon or nuking Mecca or whatever), it doesn't count. I could see them praying in the direction of Earth once they're in space, and I could see people forking themselves and sending the fork down to Earth on the Hajj. Sure, most of them don't make it, and they'd probably need to be quarantined afterwards to make sure they're not infected with the Exsurgent Virus, but once that's done with, and you've merged, voila! You're a Hajji.

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
nick012000 wrote:
Actually, I don't think that Muslims would have much of a theological problem if Mecca was turned into a radioactive crater. One of their rules is that if an unbeliever forces you to sin (by forcefeeding you bacon or nuking Mecca or whatever), it doesn't count. I could see them praying in the direction of Earth once they're in space, and I could see people forking themselves and sending the fork down to Earth on the Hajj. Sure, most of them don't make it, and they'd probably need to be quarantined afterwards to make sure they're not infected with the Exsurgent Virus, but once that's done with, and you've merged, voila! You're a Hajji.
The point of praying towards Mecca is to pray towards the Kaaba. If the Kaaba is destroyed then there is no point of praying towards Mecca any more. I agree that Muslims that lived in space before the FALL would pray towards the Earth because that is where the Kaaba was. As per the rules of the Hajj, only a full fork could do the pilgrimage and only that fork would be considered Hajji. I guess when you merged you would be considered the true fork and the one that was absorbed into the Hajji and not the other way around.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
benji benji's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
The Catholic Church would have some problems. Any surviving Cardinals would have to decide where the Pope in Exile is to be elected, and then they'd have to elect one. Plus, it's a bit strange to think that the current pope might be pope forever. The Orthodox church, and other, smaller apostolic sects, would have fewer problems. So long as the minimum number of bishops survive (I think it's 3), they can make more bishops. Even one bishop could make more priests, and the bishop might live forever. If you have bishops, priests, and followers, you have a church. Islam also has a number of sects, by the way, and is not nearly as homogeneous as presented in the American news. Most likely, scholars would debate for a long time before it was really decided what to do about prayer and hajj. Prayer would most likely continue toward earth in the mean time. As for hajj, if denied the means, the desire to go is sufficient. Since Mecca is a hole in the ground, until the scholars figure it out, everyone is denied the means. F or the record, in the last century BCE, the Jewish priests probably would have said that Judaism can't last very long with no temple. Yet it's been 2000 years since the destruction of the last temple and the Jews are still here. Traditions run deep and religions are more adaptable then people give them credit for.
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Its not a stretch to Interpret the faiths & faithful as a Memetic warfare weapons. Or at least giving faith credit for boosting the enemy moral. I wouldnt put it past the Titans to exploit the various Bias the Humans & Transhumans had. Acting the Armageddon out in "strict" accordance to biblical text would be a great propaganda & memetic attack, and offer lots of ideas for irresistible faith-themed traps. [I]"Abandon you flesh and a new world await you, We demand it" [/I] Matrix second Renaissance
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
benji wrote:
cord, in the last century BCE, the Jewish priests probably would have said that Judaism can't last very long with no temple. Yet it's been 2000 years since the destruction of the last temple and the Jews are still here. Traditions run deep and religions are more adaptable then people give them credit for.
Very valid point, but ever since a large portion of Jews were slaves in Babylon, there has been a Synagogue Sect (the current mainstream Judaism). The priests were partially correct in that with the destruction of the temple only the Synagogues continued and flourished (though hope that the temple would be rebuilt is still a common theme). I'm not sure that there are any sects of Islam that don't require the following of the 5 pillars but I imagine your right in that praying towards Earth is "good enough" for the time being, and since everyone is effectively immortal, it would be the responsibility of all Muslims to rebuild the Kaaba and the Great Mosque so that the Hajj can continue again. I imagine that a large number of reclaimers would be Islamic because of this.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
benji wrote:
Plus, it's a bit strange to think that the current pope might be pope forever.
Go Battle Pope!!! http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc205/jose_ssj/PSPapers/battlepope.jpg
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
nick012000 wrote:
Truthfully, I think Eclipse Phase dropped the ball on this. In my games, I'm going to reverse it; Christianity is the one who's still alive and kicking, while Islam is the one that all but died. Christianity is, as a religion, infinitely more flexible than Islam is; Islam translates to "submission to God" for a reason, and the only Muslims who properly practice their religion are the likes of Al Qaeda or are simply lying in wait for their enemies (read: everyone who's not a Muslim or a dhimmi) to be suitably weakened so that they can take over. It is [i]not[/i] a peaceful religion, no matter what they might tell you; they're either mistaken, uneducated, or lying.
Historically, Islam has a better tendency to embrace technological progress. It is the most likely Abrahamic religion to utilize transhumanizing processes. I agree that they aren't a peaceful religion, but the same can be said historically about Abrahamic faiths in general. Even the Jewish people were originally warring middle-eastern tribes, which largely only ceased fighting when they were overtaken by the Roman Empire. Let's not even get into what Christianity has done over the centuries.
nick012000 wrote:
Christianity, on the other hand, has a zillion sects, is loosely structured, and is pretty much just "accept Jesus and go to Heaven when you die". Much simpler and more friendly than Islam's "Submit to God." Pretty much everyone but the asshole athiests in a Western country is a Christian of some variety or another, and a disaster like the Fall is just going to bring that back to the forefront. If all your family is dead (and almost everyone lost someone), that reverend that reminds you that they're happy in Heaven with God now is a big relief.
Sounds like somebody is looking at one faith with rose-colored glasses. "Accepting Jesus" is a very similar concept to submitting to god, since you do have to "accept him as your LORD and savior". Besides, if you want friendly, then maybe you should read up on the Five Pillars of Islam, and compare them to the teachings of Christianity. The first one is "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet.", which is effectively the same as Christianity's beliefs when it comes to god and Jesus. The other four Pillars (prayer, alms, fasting and pilgramage) are all also things that practicing Christians often do. Not all of Christianity is loosely structured. the Catholic and East Orthodox churches are very rigidly structured, as is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
nick012000 wrote:
In any case, Religion and Science need not conflict. I, personally, am both an ardent Transhumanist and a die-hard Christian, and I see no reason why they need be seperated. God created the universe, and he did so in a fashion that was exquisitely elegant. In the end, all of Creation boils down to a few pages of equations, and God prefers to avoid violating them unneccessarilly. Quantum Mechanics was the means through which He granted us free will; as time branches with every decision we make, this allows us to make moral decisions while still giving God omniscient knowledge of the future. Time is a tree; we just see the branch we're on, while God is outside the tree and sees the entire thing. Angels, similarly, are just robots, that were misinterpreted by primitive humans as being supernatural in nature. Similarly, UFOs are actually angels, that were misinterpreted by modern humans as being aliens. Ophanim are your flying saucers, and Cherubim are a variety of fighter jets.
The primary reason that it is assumed that most Christians are likely not transhumanists is because of the very concept of being transhuman. Most Christians are averse to such intimate technologies that transhumanity entails, and consider such things as body modification, cloning, and the creation of artificial life as blasphemy, or "playing god". It's unusual to see a die-hard, non-liberal Christian believing otherwise (albeit not necessarily impossible, or even unlikely).
TBRMInsanity wrote:
While I don't agree with everything you say, you do bring up some good points. Christianity is more resilient to destruction then Islam (but not for the same reason you gave). Islam is not this big ugly evil empire your painting it to be. I've personally have worked in an Islamic country with Muslims as an open Christian and on average most Muslims are salt of the Earth type of people. The problem with Islam (with regards to EP) is that, as you pointed out, Islam is about submission to God and part of that submission to God is the 5 pillars. Two of those pillars are effectively destroyed with the FALL (Mecca is a radioactive hole in the ground like most cities on the Earth, and as such you can't pray towards Mecca, nor can you perform the Hajj either). Since Muslims would be denied the ability to submit to God, they would have to change their core beliefs and thus no longer be Muslim. The same situation would effect the Roman Catholic Church, with the Holy See destroyed, along with it goes the seat of Catholic leadership, its cardinals, and most of its doctrines. Now lucky for Christianity, as you also pointed out, there are many different sects that don't require the Pope to dictate how they worship.
I don't think it fair to claim that Islam is less resilient to destruction. We cannot say for sure which religion is more fragile, since both are still alive and ticking in the modern day. Moreover, not all cities are holes in the ground. Even so, the city of Mecca itself does not necessarily have to survive for Islam to survive in the Eclipse Phase world. The only essential part of the city to the faith is the Kaaba (the commandment to "pray to Mecca" and "pilgrimage to Mecca" is actually an abridgment; they are suppose to face and make a pilgrimage to the Kaaba), which could have very well been moved off-planet during the Fall. A facsimile could have been built in its stead. Moreover, people could continue to pray facing the Kaaba with them believing it still remained. As for pilgrimages if the Kaaba weren't taken off-planet, a VR simulation of the city might be an acceptable alternative to the faithful. The biggest reason I think that Islam is portrayed as being the least affected by the Fall is because of its willingness to embrace technology. Of all the Abrahamic faiths, Islam is the most likely to embrace resleeving and egocasting as a whole. While some Jewish and Christian sects will also do so, an acceptance of technology is largely universal in the Islamic faith. This means that many Muslims left on Earth during the Fall had the option to ego-cast off the planet. The bio-conservative majority of the other religions did not.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
You keep saying that Islam is more likely to embrace technology than other Abrahamic faiths, but that simply isn't true of modern Islam. It would have been true of Medieval Islam, but then [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali]Al-Ghazali[/url] went and fucked it all up by popularizing the idea that since God has seen the future, we can't change it and we have no real free will so nothing we do really matters. "If God wills it" is a common benefaction in the Middle East. There's a reason that the modern scientific age arose in Europe, and not the Middle East.

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