A question on character age

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ChaosMage ChaosMage's picture
A question on character age

I'm incredibly new to Eclipse phase (I haven't even played a single game yet) and I was going through the process of making a character when I realized something.

In the lore of EP, the current year is 10 A.F. and I had assigned my characters age at 20. I had been thinking that she was born ~ ten years before the fall and wound up dying during the fall. She was re-instantiated at age 18 or twenty, which means that she spent ~ 8 years as an Infomorph. How would this affect her growth? I remember reading about the Lost Generation, and while that mostly dealt with the Watts-McCleod Strain, accelerated Growth/training, and a lack of human supervision, I was wondering if there would be similar effects for my character?

I was also having a hard time figuring out how she would acquire a body, or even if she should at all. My former plan was to use the line from the Skineasthesia hypercorp page that states that they occasionally give out experimental morphs, and have them give her an exalt morph that looks like a ruster, in an attempt to create a higher-class biomorph adapted for mars (All the same implants with maybe a few extra and some extra traits, both positive and negative to show that it was a prototype).

I was also thinking that maybe she would be given a neotenic body right away and put into some sort of governmental system directly after the fall (Sympathy for children?) or maybe even incorporated into the same program that the Lost came out of.

Thoughts?

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Welcome!

Welcome!

As for your character, I don't think they'll be crazy like the lost generation. I need to reread the lore but I'm under the impression that the Lost were a unique case. "Benign" Exsurgent virus, science experiments, and untested psychosurgery used on children. Stuff that would make adults crazy but used on developing minds.

I'm not sure how your character would get a body. I'm not sure if they do indenture ship for children, or how it would work. Maybe your character had a sponsor or adoptive parent?

Edit: Maybe your character hasn't acquired a body. Instead, they are an Infomorph. This might be an idea a bit too complex for a new player. I suggest you read the infomorph stuff in Transhuman and see if you like the idea.

MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
So The Lost Generation are

So The Lost Generation are fucked up, not because they were infomorphs. They're fucked up because fuzzy-gm-space-for-plot, plus never being in a physical body, and them figuring out its all fake so no actions have consequences. Which lead to casual murder and torture. Its not like I really killed Billy, by piling stacks and stacks of wet paper on him. I mean sure, for Billy it felt like hours of drowning, and being crushed to death. But look, here he is next school day, just fine.

And we can also assume that the various supervisors, teachers ect... werent angles. But mostly the book argues it has to be with them being poorly socialized and never having a physical body.

As for your character. If you died during the fall, then you were more then likely placed into Cold Storage. And you don't age when you're in cold storage. At least not emotionally, or biologically, mentally ect. Kids are a burden during the best of times, and well during a genocide, its way easier to care and protect you if you're compressed in .rar then being a thinking and feeling thing.

So then after that, being a minor with no marketable skills, unable to care for yourself, it depends where you were reinstated. If it was in the PC, then you have a patron, or were selected for some Hypercorp program. And this program can be as benevolent or malevolent as you want. Or your family was rich, and your estate has just been recently settled and you got money for a body. If you were out in the @s, then they would get you out of cold storage, out of humanitarian reasons, the lolz, labor, or they were stoned. How well you were cared for, is as diverse as rimward is. If you were brought out of Cold Storage by the Jovians, then you would have a moral and ethical leaning toward bioconseratives and probably raised in foster care or an orphanage depending how you see Jovians.

As for what body you get. Well for the PC you would probably have gotten an age appropriate biological age morph of your choice. As any of the Biomorphs can grow and age. Its just that most folks decide not to. They are also capable of begetting, but most folks choose not to. If you were in the @s, then probably some kind of synth, or any random morph at any random biological age. If you were with the Jovians, then they would get you a flat, that was your last biological age.

Now when you died in the Fall as a child and for some reason werent placed in Cold Storage, then you have been living as an infomorph for some time. If this was in the PC then you would have experienced a lot of racism, oppression, and challenges if you count as a person. You would have to find work, which can be selling yourself into Indentureship which probably cant happen as children often dont have many marketable skills. If not then well, you would have to get gud at what digital life is stereotyped as good at. Infosec, programming, research. These skills are kind of true whereever you are.

However, someone that spent the bulk of their life as digital can get any not physical skill high. EG, it wouldnt make sense for someone that been an infomorph for about half their life to have gud gun skills, or gud murder skills in general, or gud freefall freerunning skills. But they can be a social face character, favor/rep broker, or a medic. Or whatever.

So then if you were an Infomorph in the PC you got any body you want with saving, and loans with reasonable apr. (This can be represented as the Debt.) Or your rich or someone rich liked you or you got into a Hypercorp program.

Now its mostly the same out in Rimworld. Though you wouldnt need to work for a body, you would get a body when its your turn to get a body. And this can be as fast or slow as you want. Which means that if you were left as an Infomorph Rimward, you can have any skills you want. Including murder.

Jovians would get you a body asap.

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
ChaosMage wrote:I'm

ChaosMage wrote:
I'm incredibly new to Eclipse phase (I haven't even played a single game yet) and I was going through the process of making a character when I realized something.

In the lore of EP, the current year is 10 A.F. and I had assigned my characters age at 20. I had been thinking that she was born ~ ten years before the fall and wound up dying during the fall. She was re-instantiated at age 18 or twenty, which means that she spent ~ 8 years as an Infomorph.

your math here is wrong, when she is reinstanced, either biologically or as an infomorph, she is still just age 10, if she was an infomorph prior to 10af for 8 years then she was reinstanced at 2 af. reinstancing a child outside of a biomorph, especially the stress the psyche will undertake because of violent death is going to lead to some severe behavioral developmental problems.

btw a neotenic is not just a child body, its permently a child scale body with fully working repoductive organs (insert coprorate drm restrictions here). Neotenics are a very niche morph, Original niche is high biomass efficiency and the scaling down of habitat vollume to save resources but i suspect the morph sees more use in the sex trade.

Best case scenario for her development would be infomoph initialization with extensive counseling and psychosurgery to overcome death trauma and then sleeved into a morph that is biologically age 10.

Mr wiggles has a nice summery but i disagree on the jovian example unless you were kept safe by someone explicitly defying the law, which could be a really interesting backstory or opening plot. and its the titanians who the fastest turner outers of biological bodies outside the pc because there policy is everyone who died in the fall has the right to a new body

in a PC or even morning star starting scenario the most likely way your character got reinstancedwas because of a parent or relative with sufficient rep or pull or cash. rep/pull could of been suave contract negotiation for their own indenture, or you were reinstanced as a "Bonus" / moral booster

Also welcome

ChaosMage ChaosMage's picture
ORCACommander wrote:

ORCACommander wrote:

your math here is wrong, when she is reinstanced, either biologically or as an infomorph, she is still just age 10, if she was an infomorph prior to 10af for 8 years then she was reinstanced at 2 af. reinstancing a child outside of a biomorph, especially the stress the psyche will undertake because of violent death is going to lead to some severe behavioral developmental problems.

I was thinking she was born 10 B.F., died during the fall (Which puts her at ten years old at the time of the fall) and 'aged' in the following 10 years (since the current time is 10 A.F) as an infomorph. She's only technically 20 years old due to actual physical time passing rather than any mental age or stasis. Her mind would be whatever age she is mentally, whether that developed or not as an informorph is hard to say. I was thinking she'd be reinstantiated either in 8 A.F. or in 10 A.F.

I didn't know they put egos in stasis, i always sort of figured that they would put them into a Simulspace MMO or something. Perhaps a Free to play, pay to win sort. Stasis does make more sense though.

I forgot that biomorph bodies aged for some reason, and was considering neotenic. But, on that same note, would she feel more comfortable in a neotenic body, due to never actually having a body that aged?

MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Any biomorph can age, and

Any biomorph can age, and presumably, you can get any biomorph at any biological age. Then let it age into full physical maturity. The funny part, is that it wouldn't change in capability. It would just be smaller, slimmer younger version.

As said before, Neonetics arent made for kids. They're made for adults to be child size. To have child scale need for space, and resources. A neonetic is fully grown. There is no '20 year old' version of a Neonetic. A Neonetic is always a child in stature, and physicality. It however is emotionally mature as the Ego that inhabits. It is also sexually mature as well. The only child like thing about the morph, is its appearance and stature.

And yea, a majority of transhuman population is in Cold Storage. They're a computer file that can be turned on, and be a person again. This is where most of the kids that survive the fall are. Transhumanity is currently in a slow population decline. No one is really begetting. No polity can provide everyone in cold storage a body. Yet. Its a scale issue. Titanian Commonwealth provides most folks with a Synth body. As their the fastest and cheapest to make.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
It's worth clearing up the

It's worth clearing up the difference between being an infomorph and being in cold storage. Most people who died in the fall are still of Cold Storage, which means their ego files are kept in a static archive. They're basically in mental suspended animation. Instanced Infomorphs are comparatively rare, and some exist exclusively in virtual spaces, most use the Augmented Reality capabilities of the mesh in stay in touch with meatspace.

IIRC Infomorphs are full-body virtual simulations, so a decent one could probably do puberty in the simulation. (It'd be really distorted though, as the simulations don't quite get the experience "right" and being able to selectively mute that stuff would be a game changer) That said, going virtual for nearly a decade is going to effect someone, as it's a pretty different experience.

As for the type of morph, any biomorph would probably be equally uncomfortable, as she's spent half her life as a virtual being.

ChaosMage ChaosMage's picture
That seems like such a huge

That seems like such a huge waste of resources though to not have that entire group of people as infomorphs. When I was reading, it seemed like data storage and simulation capabilities were near limitless, and having that massive of a work force just creating things simply because they have nothing else to do would be impressive. Not to mention any 'free-to-play' style games being able to use such a massive base as a reason to draw people in. It's hard to imagine there isn't some hypercorp out there that wouldn't do that on Mars, just to bring in the 'whales' as a challenge. Any free time the infomorphs had that they didn't want to spend on the game could be spent just creating things, either for the game they are in, or for simulspace in general, or even running CAD software that enables them to design things for the Real space (like furniture, or art sculptures, or what have you). Even people who aren't very creative would eventually make something worthwhile to the economy.

As for my character, what I'm learning is she's either really messed up for spending 10 years as an infomorph, or she's a kid who just came out of stasis. Both could be a neat character, but the messed up version would probably be the one that is easier on the GM to incorporate.

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
storage is virtually

storage is virtually unlimited, Petaflops are not. dedicated processing nodes, which you need for transhuman egos to run at ful capacity, are deliberately kept to a minimum to avoid any single node from having enough computational capacity to kickstart a seed AI problem again. the largest ego server i have heard of in settings was 500 or 30 i forget which. further the amount of infrastructure availible to run all those egos at the time of the fall did not exist. we probly lost 10% of the population du to I/O saturation. but they are slowly instancing people as infomorphs, as long as they have skills that justify their maintenance and investment

also in the glory scenario, a Sub processor for a TITAN was the size of a loaf of bread.

your character would feel most at home in a genetic duplicate of her previous morph, probly included as meta data in her ego, aged to the day she died. even then it is not gonna fit perfect. no old scars from when she put her hand on the burner, no stamina because the body has not been properly exorcised, hair style is going to be completely wrong... and if she died painfully 10 years or not going back to the "same" flesh and blood body and not feeling those expected pains is going to leave some mental lashes

MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Computers need electricity

Computers need electricity and they need processors. A solid state hard drive, is pretty stable, and doesnt need much of anything to remain fine.

To run a virtual instance of a person, is still a none trivial amount of computing for Eclipse Phase. The human mind, is estimated to hold about 2.5 petabytes. For an example of scale. The entirety of google, could instance 8 minds. Just the data it holds. This isnt including the processing power needed to simulate thought. (And its vague how much of a emulation or simulation EP is for infomorph.)
And this isnt a simulation of external stimuli, which is even more computation. And this isn't including the Muse, and the Exocortex that each transhuman has.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
If you are going the

If you are going the Infomorph route, you should consider Eidolons (morphs for infomorphs) and maybe a portable server (a server for 10 minds on wheels). You should also know that you could run on ectos (portable computer), mesh inserts, and ghost rider modules (an augment to carry an extra infomorph).

Eidolons, portable servers, and other things are covered in the transhuman book.

ChaosMage ChaosMage's picture
One thing I noticed as part

One thing I noticed as part of the Re-instantiated background was that "edited Memories" was applied as a 'free' trait (since it's a negative trait, it sort of means I don't get any CP for it). Technically, those edited memories could be anything, so long as it is plot relevant.

It could be her own traumatic death (edited for her own mental health, so that she basically only loses a few moments or weeks or months, depending on how well they edit the memories), it could be something to delete some data that she saw of importance (Perhaps she was in a refugee camp and saw something she wasn't meant to see, I.E. someone intentionally letting TITANs into the camp, or stealing some bit of information), or it could be that her entire remembered life is a lie (depending on how advanced the memory editing is), although why anyone would do that would be a mystery.

I'm not sure what to think of having a character who is only ten years old. For one thing, it would make it rather difficult on the GM and other characters to have to make up for her flaws (of which it appears there would be many). For another, i'm not entirely sure how well I could actually RP a ten year old. I think I'd rather have a character who is easy to work around.

Thank you for all your help, guys!

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
ChaosMage wrote:That seems

ChaosMage wrote:
That seems like such a huge waste of resources though to not have that entire group of people as infomorphs. When I was reading, it seemed like data storage and simulation capabilities were near limitless, and having that massive of a work force just creating things simply because they have nothing else to do would be impressive. Not to mention any 'free-to-play' style games being able to use such a massive base as a reason to draw people in. It's hard to imagine there isn't some hypercorp out there that wouldn't do that on Mars, just to bring in the 'whales' as a challenge. Any free time the infomorphs had that they didn't want to spend on the game could be spent just creating things, either for the game they are in, or for simulspace in general, or even running CAD software that enables them to design things for the Real space (like furniture, or art sculptures, or what have you). Even people who aren't very creative would eventually make something worthwhile to the economy.

As for my character, what I'm learning is she's either really messed up for spending 10 years as an infomorph, or she's a kid who just came out of stasis. Both could be a neat character, but the messed up version would probably be the one that is easier on the GM to incorporate.

There's a billion+ stored across multiple poorly indexed databases, which are mildly hazardous to access, thanks to any potential leftover TITAN worms. That's double the instanced population of the entire AF10 solar system, so the scale alone is massive. Beyond that, while static storage is massive, and computing power cheap, running that number of infomorphs is a *huge* project, and essentially requires the kinds of clusters which are rare post fall, mostly from a legal perspective.

Now, there are infomorph-populated work servers (IIRC they're called Dream Factories), but considering most of the people in storage don't know anything about the design process you can't just plug a play them into being productive. There's also the problem of there being more than society can really make use of at any one time. And of course, groups like InDex limit access to control prices and ensure stable market prices for indenture.

Buying server access is cheaper than running a refugee camp, but in terms of scale, it's like the modern day world trying to field 14 billion refugees, which would overwhelm every modern attempt.

I'm not sure that messed up is the right term to use, they could be a totally well adjusted person, but would be quite inhuman in some respects, thanks to going into the digital life at such a young age.

BalazarLightson BalazarLightson's picture
Re-instantiated Ideas

I had an idea a while back to play a reinstantiated PC bent on retrieving his lovers stack from Earth. That morphed into a scenario idea I'm working on.

Then the idea to play a reinstantiated PC who's memories are in fact edited together by some powerful agency from a mix of useful personalities and skills.

One interesting idea for career and skill development would be to say your PC as a child awoken as an infomorph form and told you were in a game and had to solve certain technical, academic or scientific problem before you'd be allowed out of the game again. You'd level up over years, learn about SimSpace environments, potentially learn to hack the system... it sounds kind of fun, in a creepy forced labor way.

In a way I think this was part of how the Lost Project might have evolved. Also, kids would band together into power groups, or technical skill groups facing particular problems, racing for certain short term goals. It could be an anxiety inducing nightmare.

ChaosMage ChaosMage's picture
BalazarLightson wrote:One

BalazarLightson wrote:
One interesting idea for career and skill development would be to say your PC as a child awoken as an infomorph form and told you were in a game and had to solve certain technical, academic or scientific problem before you'd be allowed out of the game again. You'd level up over years, learn about SimSpace environments, potentially learn to hack the system... it sounds kind of fun, in a creepy forced labor way.

In a way I think this was part of how the Lost Project might have evolved. Also, kids would band together into power groups, or technical skill groups facing particular problems, racing for certain short term goals. It could be an anxiety inducing nightmare.

This was actually sort of how I was imagining things for the most part as well, although less 'you can't leave the game until you solve it' and more 'here's a game, winners might get a body depending on performance'. I like the former idea more though. It's certainly an extra level of creepy and serviceable at the same time.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
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BalazarLightson BalazarLightson's picture
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Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Just an idea I had

Maybe she is the daughter of a valuable ego and her parent is working an indenture for -her- morph. During this time she's getting an education from her hypercorp sponsor to account for her having useful skills while being kept close by to maintain control of her parent.

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