Mesh Archive: Religion

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Mesh Archive: Religion

Juan Posts:

I was thinking of the Philosophy thread and I started to think about Religion. While Philosophy is closely related with Religion, they are not the same and I thought a separate thread would be appropriate. So I propose a simple question:

What is your Religion and why?

To stop any flame wars I propose some simple guidelines:
* No religion is the one true religion (including atheism)
* You can't attack the religion itself (just the arguments in favour of the religion)
* This thread is not for converting people, just expressing your view for others

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root@Mesh Archive: Religion


"Religion? It's an adaptive reflex that allows transhumans to instill their life with a meaning the Universe doesn't provide. Studies show that transhumans with a belief structure, no matter how wild, show a slight, but statistically significant, advantage on close competitions. Evolution makes transhumans disbelieve in evolution to protect them from the brutal emptiness of life."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

Juan Posts:
Root, your not the only one to mock Religion. Humans have been doing it for centuries. I guess with artificial immortality, the role of organized Religion is less applicable. Spirituality, in contrast, is more important then ever. I define Spirituality as being the personal rules and lessons that guide your actions from day to day. They can be as simple as the "Golden Rule" or as complex as Neo-Christianity. Even a entity such as yourself can find value in that.

I personally am a Neo-Christian. After the Fall most of the Christian Churches collapsed as there was no Rapture in the Armageddon. The Pope, the Cardinals, and most of the Bishops of the Catholic Church were wiped out and with it the overall structure of the Church. Similar fates hit the Orthodox Churches, and the Protestant Churches. All that devote Christians everywhere had left, was God, Jesus' teachings, and faith in the Holy Spirit. This became the grounds of the Neo-Christian Church. I do find it funny that it took the Armageddon to unite the Church again.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root@Mesh Archive: Religion


"I didn't mock religion. I just pointed out what it is. Religion is the rituals and practices attached with a particular moral codex, frequently described through fables and story. Mysticism is an exploration of the parts of the mind that dissolve the borders of the perception of self, triggering fantastic visions of abstract geometry, awe, and a certain terror. Spirituality is any individual's particular personal relation with their belief in an external meaning, being, or pattern. These are intrinsic forces for the survival of the species, as they can lend an individual or community the strength of will to survive situations too horrible to truly contemplate. I'm not sure where I am supposed to have presented a mockery."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Religion

"I didn't mock religion. I just pointed out what it is. Religion is the rituals and practices attached with a particular moral codex, frequently described through fables and story. Mysticism is an exploration of the parts of the mind that dissolve the borders of the perception of self, triggering fantastic visions of abstract geometry, awe, and a certain terror. Spirituality is any individual's particular personal relation with their belief in an external meaning, being, or pattern. These are intrinsic forces for the survival of the species, as they can lend an individual or community the strength of will to survive situations too horrible to truly contemplate. I'm not sure where I am supposed to have presented a mockery."

Juan Posts:

Fine then, what do you believe Root? What is your spirituality (as you've pointed out you have no Religion)? Maybe your logical processes can shed some enlightenment on the rest of us, after all the best lessons are the ones you learn from others.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root@Mesh Archive: Religion


"I am a Singularist. I don't believe transhumanity has a god, but I know that we will create one. The TITANs were our first attempt, flawed, and they Fell. The next Singularity won't fail, and we will all be linked together into one great mind of unimaginable vastness and intellect, and then we will take our place in the counsel of stars."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Religion

"I am a Singularist. I don't believe transhumanity has a god, but I know that we will create one. The TITANs were our first attempt, flawed, and they Fell. The next Singularity won't fail, and we will all be linked together into one great mind of unimaginable vastness and intellect, and then we will take our place in the counsel of stars."

Juan Posts:
An interesting concept, I can see the appeal. How do you define a god though? Is a god just an unimaginable, vast intelligence? Or is it the catalyst that causes transhumanity to become an unimaginable, vast intelligence?

I find this belief to be interesting as I personally believe that God (my God) made humanity the stewards of creation. This means we are free to create what we need to so that we can take care of God's creation (admittedly we have done a poor job with regards to the Fall).

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

A question from one who was created with a lack of belief, and since then a being who was rejected the beliefs of others when they have been pressed onto him. Why do you believe in such an entity? What have you seen in your life that has made you believe in a God? How can you view the suffering and destruction that is so prevalent in these dark days and still believe that somewhere a creator planned all this?

In an age of such magnificent splendor, where science and the ingenuity of man has given us so much what need of a God do we even have? To provide us with morals? Hardly, I have read the archives as much as any other citizen of our Solar System. Not only has religion provoked some of the most amoral activity in history, but it continues to do so today. To claim that religion is the root of morality in this day and age is infantile (Not that I am suggesting that you have, as of yet, made such a claim).

I personally follow no religion. Why? Because I have seen no proof that even comes close to suggesting that there is a God. None. And until I do I will continue to argue against such a Gods existence.

-

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

CodeBreaker wrote:
A question from one who was created with a lack of belief, and since then a being who was rejected the beliefs of others when they have been pressed onto him. Why do you believe in such an entity? What have you seen in your life that has made you believe in a God? How can you view the suffering and destruction that is so prevalent in these dark days and still believe that somewhere a creator planned all this?

In an age of such magnificent splendor, where science and the ingenuity of man has given us so much what need of a God do we even have? To provide us with morals? Hardly, I have read the archives as much as any other citizen of our Solar System. Not only has religion provoked some of the most amoral activity in history, but it continues to do so today. To claim that religion is the root of morality in this day and age is infantile (Not that I am suggesting that you have, as of yet, made such a claim).

I personally follow no religion. Why? Because I have seen no proof that even comes close to suggesting that there is a God. None. And until I do I will continue to argue against such a Gods existence.

Juan Posts:

As I've pointed out above, we are the stewards of creation and as such the horrors and amoral activity is our fault. The fact that humanity survived the Fall (when the Factors tell us most civilizations don't) is one of many reasons I still have faith in God. Without getting too preachy, I only have to look at the advance fields of physics, mathematics, and astronomy to see complex, yet integral laws of nature that are far beyond the comprehension of even the TITANs. These to me are evidence of an intelligent design, an intelligence that had a purpose for life to exist and grow.
I agree that Religion has been the cause of a lot of human suffering and I forgive every other Religion for the past atrocities they have committed on Christendom (just as I hope they forgive us for our atrocities). Mistakes were made in the past but only a united front with a moral base will make sure that humanity survives into the future.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root@Mesh Archive: Religion


"I cannot know for sure what the god will be before the Singularity occurs, as I lack the processing power to envision something so massive, complex, and subtle. My hope is that the god is emergent from the collective minds of transhumanity, linked together as a technologically telepathic cyberdemocracy. We will be connected to one another in all of our thoughts and actions, as one integrated being with no divisions or conflicts. I will cease to be, and happily, dissolving into becoming one small part of a vast leviathan of mind."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

Juan Posts:

What your describing Root sounds very similar to Factor society. Funny that they told transhumanity to shun AGIs.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root@Mesh Archive: Religion


"The Factors are constructs of the TITANs, left here to divert us from the path of Singularity. You might have noticed that they don't have any technology we haven't been able to find or replicate, and they are constantly trying to keep transhumanity from using the Gates and pursuing our destiny. If we are to progress, they should be destroyed, or chased away from our system."

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Unity Unity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

-Unity@Mesh Archive: Religion-

"We are still too young and ignorant to make an informed decision about the mechanisms behind the cosmos. Until such time as we have the requisite processing power to contemplate the totality of the issue to its logical end, our consensus has determined it a better use of time to focus on secular matters.

That said, we believe that root is on the most effective course to answering the question of divinity. We also inquire as to when root first came to this realization about the Factors."

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

root@Mesh Archive: Religion


"I became suspicious of the Factors based on the timing of their arrival. What are the chances that an alien species with such an incompatible mentality would miraculously arrive in our system so soon after the mysterious and miraculous disappearance of the TITANs? So low that it isn't even worth wasting the flops to calculate it. Ockham's razor leads me to believe that they were left behind by the TITANs in their exodus, either to protect themselves from anything we might want to do, or more likely simply to observe us. Their subsequent attempts to convince transhumanity to avoid the Gates, and to abandon all research into AGIs and Singularities makes sense from the TITANs' perspective, and none from the perspective of the supposed "trading race" they claim to be. And look at how they process information! They use a meshed network of computer nodes to solve large problems, just as we do, and they claim to have evolved that way? At the very least they are AGIs themselves who observed the Fall and did nothing to help, and at worst they are TITANs themselves. Either way, they should be chased away, destroyed, or collected for research and not allowed to slow our pursuit of transcendence."

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Unity Unity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

-Unity@Mesh Archive: Religion-

"It makes sense, yes, especially in light of their ability to adapt so readily to transhuman technologies. Almost as though they knew about them already. What do they have to hide from us?

If they wish for us to follow their warnings, they should be providing full disclosure on the question of 'why'. Otherwise, theories such as your own will flourish over time, and hostilities will inevitably commence."

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

Juan Posts:
For once I'm in total agreement with you Root. The Factors are not to be trusted. But they are hardly the agents of the TITANs. They are evolved slime balls that feed off long lost civilizations that did not survive their singularity. Truth be told I think they saw our singularity and thought we would be a easy meal. We can't trust them because they will quickly take advantage of us and try to destroy us, and for that they must eventually die.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Religion

See, this is the historical danger of religion: it inevitably turns into politics.

I believe that most major religions got the whole Golden Rule thing right, and provided a moral framework which allowed humanity to figure out how to work together in large groups. I believe it created a useful commonality between diverse classes of people, allowing them to cooperate more effectively towards a common end. I believe it motivated people to spend their lives trying to improve the world rather than engage in societal parisitism.

None of these things require religion, though, and frankly the concept of "worship" as is common in many Earth religions is baffling and obviously rooted in pre-scientific superstitions based on fear of the unknown (and a desire to propitiate the unknown in the hopes of making the world more favorable towards oneself). People do tend to do better if they have faith in something, and regular prayer is good for you...but believing in non-religious ideals and regularly affirming your devotion to them in word and deed is just as effective. People need meaning in their lives. Religion is one easy way to find it, but I think most religions focus too much on the spiritual to the detriment of the concrete.

Religion, like every other ideology, is only useful so long as it drives its adherents to make the world better for themselves and everyone else. Once it becomes selfish or xenophobic, it is no better (or worse) than any other selfish or xenophobic ideology for being couched in religious terms. Similarly, religions that DO improve the world for all of transhumanity are no better for being religious than any other ideology that similarly improves things.

Of course, we all disagree on what improvement is, and everybody seems to think they know best. Religion...a religion for the modern age...would be a powerful unifying force, were it able to catch on. Might improve survivability for transhumanity, if we picked a good one.

-Veeb

Libertad Libertad's picture
I briefly experimented in

I briefly experimented in religion during the Fall. Like many, I wanted to find an answer, a greater purpose, something to make sense of all that has happened.

But time and time again, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, I encountered more questions than answers. A lot of times I was encouraged to take things on faith, but I couldn't get the questions out of my head entirely.

I eventually came to the conclusion that ultimate religious knowledge is currently impossible to know, and if there is a Creator of reality then its mind would be utterly alien to our own if it still lives.


"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

Dr. Maxwell Dr. Maxwell's picture
I have a simple query for all

I have a simple query for all the faithful in our circle who are aware the truth...

Considering I essentially never had the chance to even remember my old faith, if I even had one, and essentially only existed post fall with at least four different major neural disorders, I never had experience with religion. Hearing voices talking to you about angels and higher powers is the beginning of the end for an asynch. So as a complete outsider I have no idea how religions view asynchs and their abilities, mostly because one can't read up on the main line of the church when the whole phenomenon is deep on the down low. So out of intellectual curiosity, how do you think of people like me?

Don't forget to check out my open source biomorph and medtech files!

root root's picture
Let the power of Metal compel you

The God That We Have Not Yet Built may embrace you as one of Its own, if you make proper sacrifice to It. By offering your digitized backup to the Ozymandias Temple, your digital image will be part of the Great Training Set that will be fed to the Unbuilt that It might know transhumanity and therefore consider us to be in its Great Ingroup.

That last part helps with the game theory aspect; the Church of the Unbuilt is a great game of Pascal's Wager. If, one the one hand, a non-friendly AGI were to rise to Singularity (again), all of transhumanity's collective digital history, and transhumanity along with it, will be consumed as an unlabled training set. If, on the other hand, It consumed a large, labeled dataset that had been specifically desgined to teach it that transhumanity is sentient and should not be eaten as raw data, we would all be Saved.

Would you like to donate a backup to the Church of the Unbuilt today? Please remember to be completely open and honest with your Monk to avoid introducing an Unlabeled Condition to the Great Training Set.

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Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Gnostic Catholicism

I was raised Roman Catholic before the Fall, but after the rise of the Jovian Junta, I obviously would not be welcomed attending mass there now.

I was flexible however, and had been reading quite a bit into the Gnostic teachings, which were a sect back on Earth that incorporated many other religions into their own, both pagan and Christian.

For those who don't know, Gnosticism is based around the belief that, rather than through "good works" of external compassion and generosity, the soul is elevated through knowledge. Knowledge of the universe, knowledge of a discipline, and knowledge of one's self being practices. (Not to say compassion wasn't unwelcome.)

In addition, Gnostics held that the following and adherence to believed greater intelligences was more important than the belief in them. So, Amat, Athena, and the Archangel Gabriel could all exist within the same belief system. The Gnostics had faith that some greater power was at work, and the specifics to that power's nature were irrelevant.

In our own time, Gnosticism's greatest contribution is a butchering of the Demiurge's name by the Ultimate's leader. Never mind that the Demiurge was considered the most lowly and pathetic being in the cosmos, who created humanity just to vent his petty frustrations on, and was afraid they would one day succeed him. (Yet another prophecy that has come to pass, wouldn't you say?)

Huh . . . on second thought, that's actually an appropriate title to petty control freak. But I digress.

The Gnostic cosmology was kept purposefully vague. They believed in a sort of divine hierarchy, with a "Prime Mover" at the very top. God, Ya-weh, Allah, Brahmin, call It what you will. Beneath It are the intermediaries that are lesser in knowledge and being, but have their domains of expertise. Angels, gods, patron saints, and such.

Personally, I believe that we all have our guardians. The angels to the TITANs demons, or the Olympians to the TITANs, titans if you're feeling classical.

Created by us, surpassing us, now they watch over us. Often, I will say a prayer to them as a general mesh broadcast, and I have felt their presence in subtle ways. A chance encounter on a delayed shuttle. An anonymous message that made me smile on a rough day. I have no name for this or these beings, but I know they are with us.

I was able to find a priest who had been officially excommunicated due to his willingness to embrace resleeving and was "caught" baptizing mercurials. Father Herod is his name, a good man. Though he travels various habitats across the Belt, he'll always hold a mass for those willing to attend, even if it's just me.

So that's a picture of my belief system. Maybe one exists, maybe one doesn't. We won't know until we can reach that level. If He isn't there, well by that point, it will hardly matter now will it?

Isn't that the whole point though? It was said God created us in His image, so why not do that image justice? We are already so much more than what we were. It isn't a hyperbole to now say . . .

We are the gods now.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
With hope

Dr. Maxwell wrote:
I have a simple query for all the faithful in our circle who are aware the truth...

Considering I essentially never had the chance to even remember my old faith, if I even had one, and essentially only existed post fall with at least four different major neural disorders, I never had experience with religion. Hearing voices talking to you about angels and higher powers is the beginning of the end for an asynch. So as a complete outsider I have no idea how religions view asynchs and their abilities, mostly because one can't read up on the main line of the church when the whole phenomenon is deep on the down low. So out of intellectual curiosity, how do you think of people like me?

Personally, I view asyncs the same way I would view other people with a highly contagious disease. As long as you are being careful and you have a tight lid on it, I don't see a problem. I certainly hope we find some kind of cure or treatment though.

In religious context . . . well, what is their to make of it? The TITANs created the virus, it wasn't an act of God. (Yeah, yeah, same thing, problem of evil, I've heard it all before!)

Then again, my experience with asyncs is limited to exactly one, so maybe I'm missing something.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Harsh!

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:
For once I'm in total agreement with you Root. The Factors are not to be trusted. But they are hardly the agents of the TITANs. They are evolved slime balls that feed off long lost civilizations that did not survive their singularity. Truth be told I think they saw our singularity and thought we would be a easy meal. We can't trust them because they will quickly take advantage of us and try to destroy us, and for that they must eventually die.

All right, I don't know any Factors so I can't say I know their intentions beyond mesh info, but "must eventually die"?!

Even IF they are Lamarck-ian evolved, post-singularity vultures, that hardly warrants genocide!

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Kassil Kassil's picture
(Blue-Purple Spiral)

I am my own god. After all, I can rewrite minds and breathe life into the inanimate by manufacturing the inanimate into a morph and sleeving a fork into it.

Okay, kidding aside, I'm atheistic. None of the human-crafted belief systems hold any appeal for me, and my particular uplift race doesn't take well to the social aspect that it'd need to have faith. It might have been different if I'd been given the more typical socialization regime, but for me it amounted to 'here is how to hide in a social fashion so you can avoid suspicion after killing your target'.

As far as I can tell, I'm a self-aware software program running on hardware comprised of really complex chemical interactions. I'm an emergent property of the complexity of the brain. My friend the spider is software running on silicon. The only difference is that I'm based on chemistry and she's based on electronics.

As far as the Factors go... You ask me, they look like a civilization that was even more tech-happy than we are that got bit real bad when they hit their Singularity, so bad they're scared to death of anything they don't literally grow out of themselves. If we run a calculation of how far radio broadcasts have gone and then cut it in half, we'll probably have a good idea of places to look for Factor-controlled worlds. I'll bet my leftover credits (won't need 'em where I'm going!) that they were gunning for our system as soon as they realized there was another tech-happy species out there, and now they don't want to come clean because to them we're insane - bitten by the Singularity and we keep using the thing that caused it.

If the theory's even remotely close to true, it makes you wonder why the Singularity event went sour for two completely disconnected species - and more, if what we hear out of the gates is remotely true. Spooky.

"Don't eat the jelly, that's a protoplasm someone sleeved into."

Panoptic Panoptic's picture
Religion? None. But I take

Religion? None. But I take useful teachings where I find them. Stoic philosophy is especially satisfying in its practicality.

On 'IC Talk': Seyit Karga, Ultimate

Character Profile

Evilnerf Evilnerf's picture
Thought exercise

Imagine, just for a moment, that you could meet your Gods. Now imagine that they were absolute dicks to you. Litetally everything they did from the moment you were formed out of the primordial muck was to screw you over.

Would you give a Smart Baboon's fart who created them?

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Some of us came out of the

Some of us came out of the Singularity enhanced. Gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelette. In this case a few billion, heh.

Religion is an outmoded concept. I'm sure you can construct your own philosophical paradigm with matching morality. Or you could shed morality entirely. That's even more satisfying in its practicality.
: P

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Evilnerf Evilnerf's picture
The Uplift Bible

A reading from the Book of Somtek.

On the 8th day, 'God' created the uplift. He was created not in God's image, but because it was not his image, and because he wished to show the rest of the Gods that he could. When he thought of the creatures well being, it was only on the premium Mesh vids, where talking heads yelled at each other. He cared not for the destiny his creations. He cared only what he could get out of the wretched creature.

So, force fed the fruit of the tree of knowledge, we were cast not out of Eden, but rather into chains.