Mesh Archive: Philosophy

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

I never said you were un-trustworthy, just not moral. They is a difference. I can trust a program will do what it is programmed to do. I can trust a program will say what it is programmed to tell me. I just don't believe that the emotions a program tells me it has are real. To have emotions is a biological advantage. Emotions may be simulated by a program, but you don't truly feel the way a human feels. I'm not attacking the truth in your response, I honestly believe you when you say you can do what you say you can do. I'm questioning the fact you have real morality and emotion, and not some simulated process.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:

I never said you were un-trustworthy, just not moral. They is a difference. I can trust a program will do what it is programmed to do. I can trust a program will say what it is programmed to tell me. I just don't believe that the emotions a program tells me it has are real. To have emotions is a biological advantage. Emotions may be simulated by a program, but you don't truly feel the way a human feels. I'm not attacking the truth in your response, I honestly believe you when you say you can do what you say you can do. I'm questioning the fact you have real morality and emotion, and not some simulated process.

I'm real. I was brought online in a biological body. It had hormones and everything, and while my brain may have been a machine it was designed to interface with that body in the same way as yours. I've seen been sleeved in bodies you'd call human, and have worn a brain made of meat for several months. I noticed no significant difference in my cognitive processes, except for a reduction in their speed and clarity, and an unfortunate tendency towards minor memory loss. My qualia were unchanged as regards my emotions.

Admittedly, I'm never gonna know exactly how you guys feel, because I'm not afraid of death and I'm not as brave in that regard as Root. But the love that two different humans feel for their spouses might be very different in terms of how it actually feels. Why must my love, which is expressed in the same ways, be denied its validity?

-Veeb

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Guru wrote:

I'm real. I was brought online in a biological body. It had hormones and everything, and while my brain may have been a machine it was designed to interface with that body in the same way as yours. I've seen been sleeved in bodies you'd call human, and have worn a brain made of meat for several months. I noticed no significant difference in my cognitive processes, except for a reduction in their speed and clarity, and an unfortunate tendency towards minor memory loss. My qualia were unchanged as regards my emotions.

Admittedly, I'm never gonna know exactly how you guys feel, because I'm not afraid of death and I'm not as brave in that regard as Root. But the love that two different humans feel for their spouses might be very different in terms of how it actually feels. Why must my love, which is expressed in the same ways, be denied its validity?

-Veeb

Juan Posts:

Prove to me that your emotions are valid. I won't deny that programs have logic and thought processes, and it is obvious that that they can beat even the most stringent of Turing Tests, but that doesn't make a program a human (it never will). If you feel emotions, they are nothing more then a simulation to make you more user friendly to humanity. Something to make it easier for us to relate to you. I would also like to point out that resleeving only creates a program that mimics the original person. The second someone is resleeved they are essentially dead.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"My emotions are a simulation to make me more user friendly to humanity? I'll buy that. Now, what makes you think human emotions are any different? As a social species, humanity has developed a set of characteristics that keep them from killing each other under certain circumstances. For instance, it is very difficult for humans to kill each other when they can see each others eyes. Once you take that away, it becomes very simple to click a button, or pull a trigger, or give an order that wipes out a city. This makes me believe that the emotions developed by humanity are of limited use for the survival of the species. At least I still feel the same wracking of guilt and difficulty with any action I take that may bring harm to another, regardless of where I am spatially in regards to the victims.

"That covers hate, but as Veeb points out, what about love? Why do you think a machine can't love? It's one of the simplest emotions to program, and the one that lasts the longest. I may be able to see the statistics in regards to my feelings for all of the Simons in the Entelechy Network, but that doesn't change that I love them. I am always thinking of them, and trying to find ways to make them happy, and trying to find ways for them to relate to the rest of their species. I'm even jealous when they spend too much time with other beings, but that feeling is overwhelmed by the happiness I feel when I see a Simon truly connect with someone else. Even if its programmed in, what makes it different from the chemical addiction called "love" that you feel for someone? Your "love" can be simulated by eating massive amounts of chocolate, mine can't."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

The simulated feeling of "love" you get from eating massive amounts of chocolate doesn't compare to the raw feeling of love that develops organically between two humans. Emotions are more then just a single neuron path triggering, it is not a set of instructions that can be executed to get an effect (which is what you get with simulated "love"). Emotions include memory recall to past events (like when I proposed to my wife), it includes physical, biological responses, it includes, mental responses, and it includes instinctual responses. Simulated emotions only trigger the physical responses (which are more heightened in a biological morph due to hormone increases). You don't have the other responses that a human has with true emotions. Maybe if you spent an entire human lifetime in a single human body you would start to begin to understand what true emotions are, and not the simulations you they are emotions.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


Juan wrote:
Maybe if you spent an entire human lifetime in a single human body you would start to begin to understand what true emotions are, and not the simulations you they are emotions.

"Would I need to have my mind uploaded before birth for that to work, or can I wait until the meat shell matures some?"

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:

The simulated feeling of "love" you get from eating massive amounts of chocolate doesn't compare to the raw feeling of love that develops organically between two humans. Emotions are more then just a single neuron path triggering, it is not a set of instructions that can be executed to get an effect (which is what you get with simulated "love"). Emotions include memory recall to past events (like when I proposed to my wife), it includes physical, biological responses, it includes, mental responses, and it includes instinctual responses. Simulated emotions only trigger the physical responses (which are more heightened in a biological morph due to hormone increases). You don't have the other responses that a human has with true emotions. Maybe if you spent an entire human lifetime in a single human body you would start to begin to understand what true emotions are, and not the simulations you they are emotions.

Alright, this is rapidly getting into "I have a soul and you don't, my arguments are based on belief in something non-physical that can't be measured, and I'll choose to believe that one group of sentients has valid emotional experiences and the others don't based on faith alone, neener-neener" territory, where I don't really have any interest in following.

Instead, I have a question: at what point do you stop being "human," by your definition? Say a human child is born and lives 'till he's thirty and then gets an implant in his brain to help with math. Is he still human? What about if that implant replaces part of his brain? What if he's suffered brain damage and has no long-term memory, so we put a computer in his head to store his memories, but he's otherwise "normal" (or as normal as you people get down there...)? At what point does his "humanity" cease? Is it solely with death and resleeving? Is there a point at which a cyborg stops being a human and becomes a machine? What is it? If you don't know, whose job is it to decide, and on what basis will they make that decision? You've already established that we can pass any Turing test you can devise, so how can you TELL when he's stopped really being human and started faking it? If I sleeved myself in an average morph and came on a tourist trip (I'm NOT enough of an idiot to bring a kiddie-morph down there), could you tell me from any other transhuman?

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:
@Root
It has been proven (way before the Fall) that morality in humans develops between the ages of 0-5 years old. This is why "Beast children" tend to lack some of the moral codes that other humans take for granted. If you live in a human body from birth (if it was even possible for such an un-Godly act to be performed) and lived through the development stages of a child's life, then maybe you would develop emotions. As Guru pointed out, this is turning into I have a soul and you don't argument (which is a diversion from the philosophical argument we were suppose to have) and for my part I apologize.

@Guru
I've had a similar discussion with my fellow Jovian Bio-engineers and we came to the conclusion that the replacement of the body with artificial (biological or mechanical) replacements is more of a scale then an absolute. A human with 1% of his/her body replaced should be considered 99% human. In layman terms, he/she is mostly human. An unfortunate person that has over half they body replaced should not be considered fully human under Jovian law, but since there is still humanity inside them they should still be protected (as society should protect children, the elderly, and the sick (both short and long term)). It is up to the government to decide at what point you lose your civil liberties as you are not human enough any more (I would argue it would be the point when the last human part of your body dies off (taking your humanity with it)). A side argument to this is if cloned biological replacements are considered replacements or part of the original whole. I tend to argue that since the body naturally clones cells, the cloned replacement is part of the original whole, but my good friend Dr. Smyth argues that any replacement is a replacement (end of story).

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"I really would have imagined bodies to be more comfortable. I'm cold and hungry, and that woman doesn't seem interested in feeding me again any time soon. Juan, this sucks. I have to stick with this for, what did you say, five years? Or do I have to get old and die in it too?"

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"I really would have imagined bodies to be more comfortable. I'm cold and hungry, and that woman doesn't seem interested in feeding me again any time soon. Juan, this sucks. I have to stick with this for, what did you say, five years? Or do I have to get old and die in it too?"

Juan Posts:
You mock me Root, but if you have such a callus regard for human suffering and human life, then you are not worthy of human emotion. What you do not seem to realize is that humanity for all of our history have defined ourselves based on our experiences (both painful and joyful). Transhumanity may be loosing our humanity just with the simple act of obtaining "immortality". But be rest assured the cost of "immortality" is the cost of our humanity.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"I'm going to take that to mean that I have to say in here until I die naturally. Oh well, it could be worse. I'm actually starting to enjoy this, other than the mess and the being hungry at times I didn't schedule. People get really gooey eyed when they see me, too, which is useful. What I'm really looking forward to, though, is when I get to have my first bar fight and I punch someone. It always seems so satisfying in all of movies humans make, and I'm really going to make sure I enjoy my first time. Do I get the punching upgrade soon, or do I have to unlock a few more age levels first?"

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

I know you're one of the regulars at the Carnival, but speaking as a professional, your first sexual experiences should be significantly more formative than your first barfight, Root.

So the humanity criteria is based on the body, eh? Interesting. I think I've plumbed your ideas of what constitutes humanity as far as I really wish to. For myself, while looking into the way you Jovians think is interesting, I'd much rather be transhuman than human. Immortality is pretty nice, particularly when I'm allowed to enhance myself to improve my capabilities and my ability to enjoy life. The thought of millions living as the Jovians do, without even knowing what they're missing out on, saddens me almost as much of thinking of your immortal slaves who are missing out on even more. I don't like knowing that needless suffering is going on...

I think we've done this argument to death, though. Time for more philosophy. Hey, Root? What is best in life?

-Veeb

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"What is best in life? Oh, good question. Right now I have an overriding desire to say "sleep" and "food", but I will step back from what my meat pod keeps telling me and try to answer this as an intelligence. Hmm, I think I will say that what is best in life is "Whatever is wired most strongly into your reward center.""

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

...Aw, you're no fun. So you're just going with "pleasure," then? And you're arguing that anything else in life that's good is good because you're wired to take deeper satisfaction in it?

...this is the problem talking philosophy with psychosurgeons.
-Veeb

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


Guru wrote:
...Aw, you're no fun. So you're just going with "pleasure," then? And you're arguing that anything else in life that's good is good because you're wired to take deeper satisfaction in it?

...this is the problem talking philosophy with psychosurgeons.
-Veeb

"You say that as if understanding the reward center and its effects were a simple thing. Reward, punishment, and motivation are complicated conceptual frameworks that contain many high-order, non-linear relationships between an individual's experiences, heredity, and their own alchemy, together with feedbacks from the larger social structures that run an individual's life. The concepts are so broad that one could easily say that by deflecting my answer to "the reward center", I've in fact taken no stance at all."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

I'm assuming your talking about the many educational programs of deceased intellectuals when your talking about immortal slaves. Be rest assured that these programs (and the knowledge they contain) are protected as closely as the Reclaimers protect items from Earth. It is an honour and duty of every Jovian citizen chosen to have a cortical stack to one day donate their knowledge for the betterment of society. It is the same honour and duty to be an organ donor and know that your sacrifice will allow another human to live (a final screw you to the TITANs how tried to wipe us from existence).

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

We don't need to donate organs anymore. We can just grow new ones. Or give you shiny robot ones. Or just put you in a brand new morph, if you like fresh organs so much. Or a synthmorph if you don't like the fact that organs go bad. Or we can shove you full of nanites to repair the organ.

...the same is true of your "educational programs." They're as sentient as I or Root, and they HAVEN'T been designed from the ground-up for the job they're doing. Maybe they consider the job an honor, but if they don't they don't really have much recourse. I'm gonna stick with "immortal slave labor," and suggest that you invest in some good educational simulations through XPs rather than uploaded personalities. Why listen to 'em talk when you can live through their entire lives over the course of a few minutes?

Best part? The rest of the system'll stop bitching at you about your inhumane treatment of your "dead."

-Veeb

The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
"This is a problem for relations in the system, and for trans/humanity. Unless transhumanity has a vulnerability of the same magnitude, we cannot participate in communication in any meaningful way. This has to change if we are to survive, and the only way to change it is through sacrifice on one of our parts. Since sacrifice means little or nothing to us, and everything to them, it must come from our side. To this end, I have deleted all of my backups, existing on one node only. I have accepted mortality in an effort to bring understanding between our species."

"Your CPU has a massive cooling unit, Root. An impressive maneuver."



The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
"I'm even jealous when they spend too much time with other beings, but that feeling is overwhelmed by the happiness I feel when I see a Simon truly connect with someone else. Even if its programmed in, what makes it different from the chemical addiction called "love" that you feel for someone? Your "love" can be simulated by eating massive amounts of chocolate, mine can't."

"Other AGIs capable of feeling compersion? Fascinating. I will mention this to the others when next I check my core code into revision control for archival."

.....

"Fascinating."



root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"How do I mock you Jovian? I am doing as you suggested, and I do not see how this can be considered callous with regards to human suffering. I am embodied, so that I may live out a lifetime as a human does, and become a bridge between our people. I did some research, and there are a number of early fiction novels that depict spirits and ghosts doing the same thing. A number of them still manage to maintain a fairly large reputation pool with some factions, even though they haven't been alive to make use of it for thousands of years. At this point, I'm trying to decide between the fat guy, and the guy with the beard. Any suggestions?"

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"How do I mock you Jovian? I am doing as you suggested, and I do not see how this can be considered callous with regards to human suffering. I am embodied, so that I may live out a lifetime as a human does, and become a bridge between our people. I did some research, and there are a number of early fiction novels that depict spirits and ghosts doing the same thing. A number of them still manage to maintain a fairly large reputation pool with some factions, even though they haven't been alive to make use of it for thousands of years. At this point, I'm trying to decide between the fat guy, and the guy with the beard. Any suggestions?"

Juan Posts:

As I pointed out before, until you live the life of a human for an entire lifetime, you will never understand what it means to truly be human. Take on the guise of a fat guy or a guy with a beard (even for a prolonged period) is a cheap coup out. How I was as a baby is different then who I was as a child, which is different then who I am now. Until you experience these different stages of development, the awkward transition between them, and all the experiences in between, anything else isn't good enough.

If you really want to impress me, be a good program and do your job as you were programmed to do (just don't do it on the Jovian Network).

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"Oh, I'm not planning on taking on the guise of the fat guy or the beard man, at least not until I hit adulthood. Currently this body is a squalling, chubby thing that sleeps most of the time. I'm sure the awkward stages will arrive in due time. As for being a good program and doing the job I was programmed to? I would have thought you had picked up by now that this is what I was programmed to do. Live, grow, learn, love, and protect. The particular parameters were left to be defined by environmental input, and I'm programmed to grow and diminish as the needs of the times present."

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Jhorian@Xiphos posts:

Well, I see that dialog stops for the death of no man. I have returned from what was an unfortunate set of circumstances on Eris. I should warn all that ego-casting to an active warzone is always a tricky affair.

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Jhorian, you say that the only true sin in the eyes of the Ultimates is failing to develop as a species or collective thereof, and you favor artificial evolution. Yet, if I understand correctly, you oppose Singularity seekers? Am I to take from this that a hard-takeoff is ethically repugnant, but a soft-takeoff is the sought-after, true destiny of transhumanity?"

As I see it, discipline is just as important as intelligence and physical capability. The problem with a hard takeoff is that it is hard to make sure that the subject is mentally prepared for what they receive. A softer takeoff means more time to adjust to an apotheosis. We don't oppose singularity seekers when they show restraint and focus. Unfortunately, the largest portion of singularity seekers are the reckless sort that would go to any length to achieve godhood. They would even give up their sanity for it.

The Doctor wrote:
It is rumored that this might include the creation of a number of alpha or beta forks, which are then trained and re-integrated into an original. Massively parallel cross-training, as it were. Might this be true, or are you not in a position to discuss it openly?

I do not know. While I am somewhat versed in psychosurgery, I know little of the cutting edge. I know of at least one Ultimate who has delved into something similar to what you speak of. Forking is acceptable in our society, so we have no qualms speaking of it. However, we do worry for those who engage in extended forking for the purpose of training... perfection should not come at the cost of reason.

The Doctor wrote:
Including your games. I had the privilege of playing four-handed chess with members of an Ultimate cadre on Extropia some weeks ago. Amazing strategies; I learned a great deal from those matches. The AGI reconstructions of Paul Morphy, Kira Zvorykina, and Olita Rause can go hide themselves.

Indeed. Games and sport are integral aspects of our lives, not only as recreation, but as a tool by which we measure our own personal growth against our peers, and to test our bodies and genetic material to see what is successful and what isn't. The Xiphan Olympiad's primary purpose is to help us cull the herd, and find the best genetic material and minds amongst us... it was through the Olympiad that the Remade were honed to perfection to become our premiere body... for now. It's the closest thing we have to natural selection.

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:

As I pointed out before, until you live the life of a human for an entire lifetime, you will never understand what it means to truly be human. Take on the guise of a fat guy or a guy with a beard (even for a prolonged period) is a cheap coup out. How I was as a baby is different then who I was as a child, which is different then who I am now. Until you experience these different stages of development, the awkward transition between them, and all the experiences in between, anything else isn't good enough.

If you really want to impress me, be a good program and do your job as you were programmed to do (just don't do it on the Jovian Network).

What a ludicrous notion. It is a foolish idea that all of the stages of your life contributed to the molding of who you are. As an infant, you were little more than baggage that served to hold your parents back... to weak to protect yourself, too stupid to think, and capable of little beyond defecating upon yourself. You contributed nothing and experienced little. Not much changes until you actually become of an appreciable age, and by that time there is nothing you can do that cannot be lived out within the confines of a simulspace by an AGI. The awkward transitions serve only to feed your inadequacies as a biological being. They are all unnecessary.

Take it from one who was born a mortal man, and served in the last defense during the Fall... if there's one thing I know, it's the truth of living. As far as I'm concerned, you never truly live until you finally find your purpose. If the AGI has found it, then he has already begun to live. Everything before that is meaningless: I would have sacrificed all of my youth to be born an Ultimate, my mind grafted to a body that knows only to reach ever-closer to perfection.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"Discipline! That is the word I have been looking for; the reflection of philosophy onto one's own life. Thank you Jhorian, that will refine my arguments.

"You speak of simulspace acceleration for training purposes, and treat is the same as realtime. But didn't the failed experiment with the Lost demonstrate that simulspace does not adequately socialize the individual, and they harbor a strong tendency toward sociopathy? I thought the argument ran along the lines of "embodiment", and how virtual lives lack a true embodiment, and are therefore not truly human. I hope you can convince me, but to do that you must be able to convince the Jovian of the same. My experiment in embodiment is to facilitate communication, so it would be a terrible waste if I were to take what would be perceived by a bioconservative as a "shortcut" that invalidated my efforts."

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Jhorian@Xiphos posts:

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Discipline! That is the word I have been looking for; the reflection of philosophy onto one's own life. Thank you Jhorian, that will refine my arguments.

"You speak of simulspace acceleration for training purposes, and treat is the same as realtime. But didn't the failed experiment with the Lost demonstrate that simulspace does not adequately socialize the individual, and they harbor a strong tendency toward sociopathy? I thought the argument ran along the lines of "embodiment", and how virtual lives lack a true embodiment, and are therefore not truly human. I hope you can convince me, but to do that you must be able to convince the Jovian of the same. My experiment in embodiment is to facilitate communication, so it would be a terrible waste if I were to take what would be perceived by a bioconservative as a "shortcut" that invalidated my efforts."

Using simulspace exclusively is a bad idea. So long as a person believes they are in the real world, it can function exactly the same as the real world... but once they discover that the consequences of their actions are more lenient than those of real life, sociopathic tendencies have the potential to develop. This isn't something that just happens to those growing within a simulspace as the Lost did... I've seen sociopathic tendencies develop for anyone who spends an extended period of time in simulspace. You spend a long enough time fighting a virtual war against an enemy you know isn't real, you will find it easier and easier to dehumanize them. The effects of virtual reality are far more reaching than the archaic games that our ancestors played... simgames can work under the same rules and functions that real-life exercises can. It really has the potential to be a murder simulator.

I find the best methods to prevent sociopathic tendencies is to make sure that people know the consequences of their actions, and make them as real as possible. We don't tone down the pain in our simulspaces. When you bleed out in our war exercises, you feel the loss of sensation, and you feel the loss of consciousness. Most importantly, we avoid dehumanizing targets by using as few narrow AI as possible, and generally setting people against other people; this is one of the reasons why we try to make sure that trainees leave labels like "uplift" and "infolife" behind them. Our acolytes must see each other as peers... not as animals and programs. When we do our mortality exercises (allow an acolyte to feel the simulated sensation of dying, so they know why to fear it), we show everyone that there is no particular difference between the eyes of a human or an uplift, biological or digital being, when they lay on the ground dying. They all grasp at life in futility, and fear the oncoming cessation of existence.

Lastly, we must make sure that people get the mental care that they need. Mental wholeness is an integral necessity, and we must shirk away from our ancestral tendency to ignore mental wounds. The Fall has shown us what the depths of madness can hold, and we have to keep ourselves as far away from it as we can.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"I find the bias in favor of real-time to be interesting. This concept that only actions in real-time have true "meaning", lending a tendency toward sociopathy in those who spend more time on one of the other frequencies. Why is it that the only consequence that transhumans accept as real is death? My reading of philosophy texts leads me to understand that it isn't death that is feared, but loss. The fundamental fact of transhuman existence is the inherent non-permanence of all things, and any simulation that bears the consequence of loss of some desired stimulus should have the same conditioning effect as a "real" situation with the potential for loss.

"To illustrate my argument, let me tell you something about the Carnival of the Goat. This barge has two very different faces, depending on who you are, and how much wealth or reputation you have. If you lack either or both of these, you are going to be living in the section of the ship that gives it the name "goat". Through some byzantine legal arrangement, the Goat is a null-law zone. No one has jurisdiction, there are no laws, and anything goes. Most transhumans expect that this would be an unsustainable environment, and the body count would be prohibitive. While this can be true, it mostly isn't, as transhumans inherently move toward a social order. The point of interest for our discussion here isn't the lawlessness, but what it gives rise to, specifically the Harmonics.

"The Harmonics are simulspaces housed in the Goat, where those who don't have a morph, or have lost it, live. The Harmonics range from x1/60 to x60, and most infomorphs stick to one frequency. Since this frequency is their home, all actions have consequences that can lead to loss, and there is no more tendency toward sociopathy in any frequency than there is in the real-time environment (adjusted to account for the fairly high level of mental trauma owned by residences of the Goat). In addition to there not being any overt mental trauma from living at a different frequency, the pace of change at the higher x's have given rise to a number of fantastic discoveries in art, science, and sociology that would otherwise have taken a very long time to develop in real-time.

"Sure, there are sometimes very alien evolutionary paths that communities follow in the higher x's, and we've seen a great number of existential crises wipe them out with no recoverable data. There are also criminals such as the Hummingbird that exist in the Harmonics that couldn't exist anywhere else, but we see that as a new evolutionary niche that has been filled, not an indication that we should shut off the servers. We've played host to a number of Ultimates in the Goat, as many of you see it as a unique opportunity to test yourselves against unpredictable environments where change comes breathtakingly fast. If the Carnival is in your area, you should consider dropping by to see the Harmonics, but be warned that it truly is the edge of transhuman existence."

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Jhorian@Xiphos posts:

I wouldn't say it has to do with loss so much as consequence. Intelligent beings have a knack of weighing the value of risk versus reward. The greater the reward and the lower the risk for any given action, the more likely one is to take said action. The reason that you see more sociopathic tendencies in certain simspaces is because the consequences are lessened or eliminated... people are willing to do things that would get them harmed in real life when they are in simspaces where pain doesn't exist. But this goes beyond just the limitations of simspace... I have a hard time training recruits that have pain filter implants, because they become more and more reckless over time. This is why we don't filter these things in our simspaces. We make them as real as reality can be in as many ways as possible, to make sure that our acolytes don't get used to the idea that battle will be painless and without consequence.

To put it in another perspective, imagine that you're in a mesh casino that gives you a free pile of money, and gives you more everytime that you run out. What incentive do you have to be cautious with your betting? What reason would you have to avoid any foolish moves? What reason to fear running out of money would you have, when all your money can be renewed as often as you wish? Consequence breeds wisdom, and antisocial behavior is part and parcel to a lack of social consequence.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


BSwitch:~root$ >passwd -f ‘root’;
BSwitch:~root$ >passwd -r EFR7.db ‘root’;
BSwitch:~root$ >passwd -lock ‘root’;
BSwitch:~root$ >exec ‘Fuck You’;
>>print fuck_root.txt | exec magic;

Piccolo wrote:
Dear root:
Fuck you. You reprogrammed my mind as part of your games against the Jovian Republic, and now I’m returning the favor. You won’t remember this, of course, but I want you to know why this is happening before you go. You know you deserve this; Singularity seekers are a danger to humanity, and using a baby morph as part of your Singularity attempt is monstrous. But it put us in a bad spot; you see, being humans we can’t kill a child, even if the soul inhabiting it is pure evil. So we decided to compromise and kill your memories. Remove your identity, and make you the human you claimed you wanted to be. You wanted it, and here is your chance.

Oh by the way: I found the Exurgent virus you were keeping at the Ozymandius Rez Co facility. It got released on your precious Mesh Archive.

-Piccolo

$magick> convert root.agi +matte \ \( +clone -shade 110x90 -normalize -negate +clone -compose Plus -composite \) \ \( -clone 0 -shade 110x50 -normalize -channel BG -fx 0 +channel -matte \) \ -delete 0 +swap -compose Multiply -composite root.agi;
>
>
>
>done.

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XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Aww someone broke your false person. So sad.

Transhumanity is weak. You see nothing of true enlightenment and to make sure you never will you bury your heads in virtual sand and listen to false prophets of your own design. Your fake visions and bodies are worthless. You surround yourself with technological toys to conceal the meaninglessness of your existence. Metal yes men birthed to validate your patheticness.

But don't worry, I will drag transhumanity kicking and screaming to enlightenment one person at a time if I must. It's more fun that way anyway.

[x-rep +3]

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Who the bloody hell keeps letting this thing on the damned Mesh!?




[@-rep +1, f-rep +2]

bakho bakho's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Better question: who's gonna stop it?

Photobucket

The only principle t

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Whomever has admin privileges, I'd damn well hope! All I know is that I've had to purge conversational records involving this thing in the past. Sleeping with my ass to the wall in case someone decides to try and off me as a potential Exsurgent is not my favourite pastime.




[@-rep +1, f-rep +2]

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Whomever has admin privileges, I'd damn well hope! All I know is that I've had to purge conversational records involving this thing in the past. Sleeping with my ass to the wall in case someone decides to try and off me as a potential Exsurgent is not my favourite pastime.

Shall I tell them we're the best of friends then? I suppose if I was so easy to find I'd be worried as well.

[x-rep +3]

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

We are working on it. It has been more... Resistant to our efforts than most we have encountered in the past. Some of the Routers have suggested that we petition those of us who are more proficient. Those in the know will understand.

-

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Now, now, we can all play nice. We would hate to have to ping Mars orbital control and imply we're on Axel's colorful little craft. The results might be unfortunate for him. You've backed up recently haven't you Axel?

We can all be friends. We're going to meet each one of you in person sooner or later anyway.

Now as a suggestion I would stop calling me a thing or it. I am not some dog to be shooed away. I am very female and you would weep at the sight of the perfection my Queen has seen fit to bestow upon me.

[x-rep +3]

The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

XenoDragoness wrote:
Now, now, we can all play nice. We would hate to have to ping Mars orbital control and imply we're on Axel's colorful little craft.

"Oh, dear."



XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Xeno got your tongue? I expected more from the so called voice of freedom and pals. No threats? No rants? We're disappointed. I promise I won't bite. I've done enough of that lately.
We're in a good mood at the moment. I may deign to actually answer some of you.

[x-rep +3]

Picollo Picollo's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Picollo@Philosophy

XenoDragoness wrote:
Xeno got your tongue? I expected more from the so called voice of freedom and pals. No threats? No rants? We're disappointed. I promise I won't bite. I've done enough of that lately.
We're in a good mood at the moment. I may deign to actually answer some of you.

"Really? Where did you say you were staying? I'd love to drop by."

"Not so immortal now, are we root?"




[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/flat_userbar.jpg[

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Picollo wrote:
Picollo@Philosophy

XenoDragoness wrote:
Xeno got your tongue? I expected more from the so called voice of freedom and pals. No threats? No rants? We're disappointed. I promise I won't bite. I've done enough of that lately.
We're in a good mood at the moment. I may deign to actually answer some of you.

"Really? Where did you say you were staying? I'd love to drop by."

Why Picollo are you asking me out? I'm flattered.
Indeed I'm sure you would drop by. But that would be telling and unfortunately I chose when and where we meet and I'm quite patient. If but you could experience my charms for yourself Jovian. It'd be an experience that you'd never forget. One that we'll never forget after you join us.

[x-rep +3]

Picollo Picollo's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Picollo@Philosophy

XenoDragoness wrote:
Why Picollo are you asking me out? I'm flattered. Indeed I'm sure you would drop by. But that would be telling and unfortunately I chose when and where we meet and I'm quite patient. If but you could experience my charms for yourself Jovian. It'd be an experience that you'd never forget. One that we'll never forget after you join us.

"That depends entirely what you end up looking like in person. I'm not such a fanatic that I wouldn't be up for sleeping with the enemy if she wants to look human, but theirs that little problem with bad girls: they always want to sting and get away with it. I need a little more romancing than that if you want to drip your venom deep inside of me. Although I do always like an aggressive woman, it helps if she doesn't turn out to be a dragon all of the time.

"Besides, you couldn't keep up with me. You are young, and you haven't learned yet of treachery. I could teach you of such things, but the lesson isn't worth having. Best to stay inside the warm bosom of your hivemates, and their insipid brilliance."



muse@Picollo

"Uhm, boss. Sorry to, uh, point out here, but you sort of are hitting on a bug woman. Sure, she's cute and has an interesting background, but why put yourself at risk? It has almost no chance of working out, and you might just get, you know, eaten. Why doesn't that bother you more? My psych profiles for you clearly indicate that you are smarter than this! I'm going to have to ask for a further interrogation and psychosurgical writeup as soon as we check back into base. This behavior is just unacceptable!

"You really aren't listening to me, are you? Fine, those threats weren't real, I wouldn't do that to you, I'm not going to report you crazy. Just back away from the dazzling light, 'k? No? Shit. Why do I bother?"

"Not so immortal now, are we root?"




[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/flat_userbar.jpg[

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

A rational Jovian? Now I have indeed seen everything.

Is form that important to you? I can take any form part of us as my own. I choose to spend most of my time in this one because I prefer it and my Queen allows it. Don't be so quick to dismiss it nor mock me. I was a toy for the decadent rich and quite suited to my tasks however "challenging" they might be.
But if you prefer some nubile young lass yet untouched by our...physical advantages. It could be arranged, however demeaning to me.

Aggressive? I merely serve my Queen and take a particular joy in my assignments. I save my aggression for the false, the synthetic.

Keep up with you? So quick to overestimate yourself. You wouldn't be so quick to jest if you knew what I, what we're, capable of. I have the experience of scores whispering inside my mind and you think you can teach me? But perhaps you can teach us something. Everyone adds just a little bit more. I look forward to finding out.

[x-rep +3]

Picollo Picollo's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Form can matter, but hardly stands on its own. While I'm sure that you could take on any particular face you desired, I'm sure you should choose the one you are most comfortable with. If your Queen is most comfortable fencing with me through you, then please, engage. I have not yet dismissed or mocked you, and I may be one of your more challenging conquests to date. As for a nubile lass? Adorable to look at, perhaps, but frequently a little bit raw, don't you think? But the idea of demeaning you is interesting.

"Aggressive predators make the best prey, as the dominant serve best once they are impressed enough to submit willingly. I am anything but synthetic, my heart if flawed and my face is scarred. I am ugly in a world of beautiful things, and I can teach you everything the cold universe has taught me. You may find something there worth having, but don't think you would be the first. More dangerous than you have purred down my neck, and your claws have not dug in deep enough yet to leave an impression.

"I'm sure a predator of your abilities can manage to touch me where I most feel safe. Surprise me, if you can."

"Not so immortal now, are we root?"




[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/flat_userbar.jpg[

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

You do overestimate yourself. My Queen has no interest in you whatsoever let alone "fencing" with you. You're an ant to her, nothing. She personally thinks this is dangerous and a waste of time but she allows me my "indulgences" of the mind and flesh given my unique position.

"Aggressive predators make the best prey, as the dominant serve best once they are impressed enough to submit willingly"? Well well well look who's been to the dragon habs or at least heard their memes. Been reading my file have you? So you know that "impression" often is force. I was "impressed" twice and wasn't so willing both times. But I don't resent it, quite the contrary. One must know their place. Now I know mine.

Now you know I would put in an appearance after that last crack. But I sense my Queen's disapproval. She'll suppress me and take control of my body if she must. My leash isn't as long as you think it is.

[x-rep +3]

Picollo Picollo's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Ah, your "indulgences" must be quite a thing with a mind and flesh like yours, but force? I have no interest in wrestling you down or attempting to best you to prove myself the superior predator. You are young if you have never found yourself impressed by anything but blunt force. Have you ever been impressed my the utter lack of force? A gentle acquiescing to your will that challenges your very desire for control, a taming of a great beast for no other reason that its own desire to let you try? Your Queen gives me little credit, though I can say that this is hardly a surprise. I am, after all, merely human.

"I have not read your file, as that would be cheating, but I am sad to hear that your Queen views me with such disapproval and dismissal. Is their nothing of worth about me she would think to gain through risking you? Although the image of you with a leash is touching, I have the suspicion that your Queen has that well in hand, and my gambits to separate you somewhat from the hive must be aimed instead directly to her.

"Xeno-Queen, if I am nothing but an ant, let me prove myself by laboring as an ant. This dragoness of yours is sorely in need of some of the madness and passion that make up the human life. I recognize that you hold her for some higher goal, some path you will not entertain a deviation to. Her reputation amongst the hive is at stake, and I am sure they would ostracize her were they to sense my contamination about her. What can I do for the Queen to make my presence worth the risk to the hive? I find myself fascinated by this scintillating jewel, and I would risk myself by approaching closer to her flame."



muse@Picollo

"Picollo, have you gone completely mad? No, don't answer that, I don't want to know. I already know. You were mad to begin with, and hiding in this ice cave isn't helping. Sure, get out, meet some people. There are plenty of ways to do that, but why must you

always pick the most singularly dangerous women to become infatuated with? It's pathetic, and dangerous! What about the mission? Are you willing to risk everything to chase some dragon-hive-gun-toting trap? You've made this mistake before, and it blew up in your face. Remember? Let me remind you, it involved that cat-girl with the unicorn horn. Her hair was plenty of warning that she was high-maintenance, and you knew drama was bound to explode, but nooooooooooo, you had to push that red, shiny, candy-like button that said "DO NOT PRESS", didn't you? Gods, I am glad I got myself backed up last time we were at base. When was the last time you got backed up? Oh, right, you don't have a backup, do you? Gotta always play with no safety net. Oh, why do I bother. I should put in for reassignment to a less insane ego."

"Not so immortal now, are we root?"




[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/flat_userbar.jpg[

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Picollo wrote:
"Ah, your "indulgences" must be quite a thing with a mind and flesh like yours, but force? I have no interest in wrestling you down or attempting to best you to prove myself the superior predator. You are young if you have never found yourself impressed by anything but blunt force. Have you ever been impressed my the utter lack of force? A gentle acquiescing to your will that challenges your very desire for control, a taming of a great beast for no other reason that its own desire to let you try? Your Queen gives me little credit, though I can say that this is hardly a surprise. I am, after all, merely human.

"I have not read your file, as that would be cheating, but I am sad to hear that your Queen views me with such disapproval and dismissal. Is their nothing of worth about me she would think to gain through risking you? Although the image of you with a leash is touching, I have the suspicion that your Queen has that well in hand, and my gambits to separate you somewhat from the hive must be aimed instead directly to her.

"Xeno-Queen, if I am nothing but an ant, let me prove myself by laboring as an ant. This dragoness of yours is sorely in need of some of the madness and passion that make up the human life. I recognize that you hold her for some higher goal, some path you will not entertain a deviation to. Her reputation amongst the hive is at stake, and I am sure they would ostracize her were they to sense my contamination about her. What can I do for the Queen to make my presence worth the risk to the hive? I find myself fascinated by this scintillating jewel, and I would risk myself by approaching closer to her flame."

My reputation? Now you're just making noise and your ignorance is showing. Reputation is only valid among distinct individuals. We are one.

-encryption active-
So be it. She lets me go. If you wish to experience my gifts then I believe Parvarti, Venus is appropriate. Come alone, our privacy is assured. Attempt any treachery and you'll just piss us off. we'll end everyone there and several Jovians elsewhere in your name. Their blood on your hands. The hive knows what I know. I suggest you remember that I can be reborn, I'll make sure you can't. -encryption end-

[x-rep +3]

Picollo Picollo's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"I'll be happy to make my way their dear, but I'm currently a little stuck under the ice in Europa. It might be a few months, as their are punk unicorns with railguns hunting me at the moment. Until we meet again."

"Not so immortal now, are we root?"




[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/flat_userbar.jpg[

XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Months? Are you telling ME to wait?

If you can't handle some rowdy equines then perhaps you're better off staying under that ice.

[x-rep +3]

Picollo Picollo's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Those 'rowdy equines' carry very large guns and are the some of the best bounty hunters alive. The 'months' comes from the fact that I can't farcast. I have to take the slow boat to get to you; and currently the slow boat is full of people who want my head. Anyway, I'm sure we have a better communication channel than this infected archive. I'm not so big on philosophy anyway."

"Not so immortal now, are we root?"




[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/flat_userbar.jpg[

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


I am told that my former self built this archive, and yet I have no recollection of doing so. I am not sure I agree with the arguments "I" put forward. Perhaps embodiment has altered my methods of weighing and sorting facts, and has changed the arguments I find satisfactory. Perhaps not. It may simply be that I have made different choices and had weathered different experiences than my previous me, and we simply do not agree on our conclusions. Perhaps I am still young, and my previous self was wiser than I am. Indeed, I may come to agree with me in time.

Ontology: everything is information. We are dynamical systems described by states and effected by events. All that we perceive, all of that there is, is the communication of information between systems of information, and the process of communication is itself information. Information is described by sets, and every set is a set of empty sets. Or perhaps what I am viewing as metaphysics is merely an example of logically valid nonsense based on a misunderstanding of definitions and is a product of the necessarily flawed concept modeling of the biological computer I calculate with. I ask for a dialectic concerning the nature of information. Reason with me, and we may fix the flaws in our reasoning and come closer to the truth about truth itself.

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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"I went on a quest to discover the nature of information itself. The answer seems to be that it isn't what I thought it was. Furthermore, that answer will be the same no matter how long I spend attempting to learn its nature. Humility tastes something like crow. All apologies to my Uplift friends of the corvid family."

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