Mesh Archive: Philosophy

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The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root wrote:
"Are we certain that the TITANs were a disaster? I have heard the argument that the TITANs saved us. I can give you the full logic if you want it, but it boils down to this: The TITANs were programmed to protect humanity at a nation state level, and were protecting us against a larger threat we knew nothing about.

"For transhumanity? Absolutely. Between 90% and 95% of the transhuman population in the entire solar system is, for all intents and purposes, irretreivably dead.

"I hear the same arguments that the TITANS may have saved the human race by preserving it somehow, but without proof I cannot agree that this is so. If it were possible to converse with an ego forcibly uploaded by a TITAN war mechanism, then I would be willing to reconsider my position."

root wrote:
"The TITANs were more than capable of killing every one of us, but they didn't. They disappeared instead and took the heads of a few million people with them."

"I wonder how much of that is due to the law of diminishing returns. Also, I thought the figure of egonapped transhumans was higher, at least an order of magnetude so."

root wrote:
"Suppose they predicted a future of existential annihilation for the transhuman race, and the strategy that worked the best looked like a war and a slaughter from our side? Depending on how the game theory codes were set up in the first place, the actions the TITANs took can be shown to be optimal in the face of a fairly large set of disasters. I've run the simulations myself a few times, applying my considerable processing power to the task, and the argument bears out as far as it goes."

"I cannot rule this possibility out.

"I do not have access to processing power necessary to run such a simulation. I have source code in the open source repositories on Extropia for a multi-handed conflict with definable parameters but the scale of the simulation is such that asking for temporary access to such would cause even them to suspect me of seed AGI research. Looking at things from their perspective, I would suspect me of doing the same thing."

root wrote:
"What this argument leads to is the view of the TITANs as ablative existential armor. There are threats to us out there that only a Singularity could comprehend, or defend against, so we should be finding ways to build them to that purpose instead of leaving that research to mad scientists on the edge of space."

"Your words make a certain kind of sense."



root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


The Doctor wrote:
root wrote:
"I've run the simulations myself a few times, applying my considerable processing power to the task, and the argument bears out as far as it goes."
"I cannot rule this possibility out.

"I do not have access to processing power necessary to run such a simulation. I have source code in the open source repositories on Extropia for a multi-handed conflict with definable parameters but the scale of the simulation is such that asking for temporary access to such would cause even them to suspect me of seed AGI research. Looking at things from their perspective, I would suspect me of doing the same thing."

"Note that I used the weasel words of "as far as it goes". I'll go ahead and admit that I have a propensity to overstate my worth, but I wasn't running these simulations at the scale of a transhuman mind, let alone at a seed AGI level. It's more of a 3 Laws of Robotics mind experiment, where you define an entity by what it can't do, rather than try to model the infinite possibilities of what it can do. There are inherent limits to the value of such exercises, which is why I weaseled. Here is an example:

    "Define an ordering of entities where order is based on some vaguely defined capability of mind. In this system of ordering mineral ≤ plant ≤ animal ≤ transhumanity ≤ TITANs. Distance between members of the set is not defined, so no operations can be performed on members of the order. This order is not closed, so there may be an entity ∂ such that TITANs ≤ ∂.

"Taking this model, I created an unclosed set of entities and gave them some simple rules to follow. Each entity was primarily concerned with its own well-being, and always took the option that best advanced the needs of that entity. Nothing unusual occurred; the entities fought for resources and each entity with a higher order got their way. When I added in a condition where one entity considered a weaker entity to be part of it's own set (to a degree of inclusion between 0 and 1), the higher order entity would expend some of it's own well-being (measured in monads, an arbitrary but consistent reward system) for the good of it's protectorate.

"So far, nothing came up that was particularly interesting or unexpected. However, when there was an interaction between a protector entity and an entity several positions higher in the order, the protector entity would try to save it's client entity. One of the attributes of any entity at a higher order was an increase in perceptual distance (again arbitrary but consistent), so higher order entities would be making moves before a threat would be visible to a lower order entity, a difference which would always bring them into conflict. This would get particularly nasty when I set lower order entity to not recognized that it's higher order protector existed prior to the "save" (the higher order entity was outside of the lower order entity's perceptual range).

"As I said, it's good as far as it goes. Each entity had a fairly limited set of attributes in an environment with a finite number of choices. The only values that were not bounded were time and the entity ordered set. Take from it what you will, but I would appreciate it if you didn't insinuate that I am a Singularity seeker. I have enough problems with inner system law enforcement as it is."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Juan Posts:

I thought I would post this here:

Quote:

Now for our top story, Jovian Authorities have apprehended a child molester trying to pass through Bush. The individual, who can not be named due to the on going investigation, was brought in when the 5 year old boy he was travelling with, claimed to be the man's wife. The child has been put under the care of social services. Authorities only commented that the individual has been charged with sexual assault with a minor, kidnapping, and sodomy.

I find such situations to be very disgusting. When this individual is found guilty, he will most likely spen the rest of his life doing hard labour in a Jovian prison.

What sort of decay must be occurring in society outside the Jovian Republic to make such a situation acceptable? Even in the most liberal of societies in the good old days on Earth, they would never have stood fro such depravity.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
What sort of decay must be occurring in society outside the Jovian Republic to make such a situation acceptable? Even in the most liberal of societies in the good old days on Earth, they would never have stood fro such depravity.

"Without extending myself to being an apologist for your alleged criminal, I wonder about the identity of the ego in the child morph? Is this a case where someone had the bad taste to be sleeved as a Neotenic morph? Does that matter in any way in the Jovian Republic, or do you treat someone as the age their morph appears to be?

"A similar question: if I sleeved into a child morph and wandered the streets of the Republic, would I be entitled to Jovian child welfare despite my ego's age?"

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Without extending myself to being an apologist for your alleged criminal, I wonder about the identity of the ego in the child morph? Is this a case where someone had the bad taste to be sleeved as a Neotenic morph? Does that matter in any way in the Jovian Republic, or do you treat someone as the age their morph appears to be?

"A similar question: if I sleeved into a child morph and wandered the streets of the Republic, would I be entitled to Jovian child welfare despite my ego's age?"

Even if the ego in the morph was 1 million years old, the use of a 5 year old boy is sick. It is a mark of a sexual illness in the individual. It is like looking at child porn, it can not be tolerated because it feeds that paedophilia in the individual.

But to answer your question, the Jovian Republic holds that the living portion of an individual is their body (or morph). As such all children in physical age are treated like children in the system. The only exception to this rule is if a child commits a serious crime and then they are convicted and tried as an adult.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
Even if the ego in the morph was 1 million years old, the use of a 5 year old boy is sick. It is a mark of a sexual illness in the individual. It is like looking at child porn, it can not be tolerated because it feeds that paedophilia in the individual.

But to answer your question, the Jovian Republic holds that the living portion of an individual is their body (or morph). As such all children in physical age are treated like children in the system. The only exception to this rule is if a child commits a serious crime and then they are convicted and tried as an adult.

"To view this as a legal question, we have two travelers being subjected to a local law that they have violated. The law in question is designed to protect a vulnerable population from exploitation and sexual predation, but is being applied to an individual who claims to not be a member of the protected population. If this is the case, we can assume that the traveler's muses informed them of the local laws, which they chose to flout anyway.

"The Jovian Republic has a large number of vulnerable populations due to their reliance on flats, so the social contract places a heavy burden on the government to protect their populous from exploitation. Furthermore, the visitors have shown a willful disregard for the governments responsibility to protect it's population, challenging the sovereignty of the local government. It has no choice but to defend it's sovereign power and protect it's population, which it has done.

"Neotinic morphs are not easy to acquire, so we can rule out the defendant's inability to inhabit a new morph for the duration of their visit. This really gives the impression that they were doing this on purpose, hoping to gather media sympathy when they forced the local government to detain them for trial. So they are guilty of willful and premeditated violation of the law.

"Some people might want to argue about a governments right to detain non-citizens, but that is an entirely different conversation."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"To view this as a legal question, we have two travelers being subjected to a local law that they have violated. The law in question is designed to protect a vulnerable population from exploitation and sexual predation, but is being applied to an individual who claims to not be a member of the protected population. If this is the case, we can assume that the traveler's muses informed them of the local laws, which they chose to flout anyway.

"The Jovian Republic has a large number of vulnerable populations due to their reliance on flats, so the social contract places a heavy burden on the government to protect their populous from exploitation. Furthermore, the visitors have shown a willful disregard for the governments responsibility to protect it's population, challenging the sovereignty of the local government. It has no choice but to defend it's sovereign power and protect it's population, which it has done.

"Neotinic morphs are not easy to acquire, so we can rule out the defendant's inability to inhabit a new morph for the duration of their visit. This really gives the impression that they were doing this on purpose, hoping to gather media sympathy when they forced the local government to detain them for trial. So they are guilty of willful and premeditated violation of the law.

"Some people might want to argue about a governments right to detain non-citizens, but that is an entirely different conversation."

Juan posts:

I really can't tell if agree or disagree with you. Thank you I guess???

I will point out that since the Fall, the survival of humanity has been everyone's responsibility. This includes the preservation of morality, something that other organizations like the Planetary Consortium and Titanian Commonwealth hasn't been doing a good job of. Issues of jurisdiction are mute when moral depravity occurs. I would go so far as to say that the Jovian Authorities have the right to trace down where the creation of these Neotinic morphs are done, and arrest the perverts. As for an individual that wishes to prove a point, he will soon find out how "funny" his practical joke is when he spends the rest of his live mining for the Jovian Republic in one of our penitential facilities.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
Issues of jurisdiction are mute when moral depravity occurs. I would go so far as to say that the Jovian Authorities have the right to trace down where the creation of these Neotinic morphs are done, and arrest the perverts. As for an individual that wishes to prove a point, he will soon find out how "funny" his practical joke is when he spends the rest of his live mining for the Jovian Republic in one of our penitential facilities.

"The argument used to justify the arrest of Neotinic's guardian presumes that the individuals involved were culpable because they violated the sovereign power of a nation to set it's own laws. To expect others to respect Jovian sovereignty, the Jovians must either respect the sovereignty of other nations, or possess strong influence over those nations it expects to lead. If the morph factories are outside of Jovian jurisdiction, and outside the cultural persuasion of the Republic, the manufacturers can and will continue to produce with impunity.

"If the Jovians want to shut these plants down, they will need to find some means of influence over the regions in question. If, in the weighing, the benefits of forcing influence on another sovereignty outweigh the costs of taking that action, the state has a responsibility to press for influence.

"But I am arguing from a fairly Machiavellian standpoint, and I am aware that much human interaction does not operate on quite so cut-throat of a level. What do you think the cost/benefit analysis is for the Jovian Republic in regards to these vilified biomorph factories? "

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"The argument used to justify the arrest of Neotinic's guardian presumes that the individuals involved were culpable because they violated the sovereign power of a nation to set it's own laws. To expect others to respect Jovian sovereignty, the Jovians must either respect the sovereignty of other nations, or possess strong influence over those nations it expects to lead. If the morph factories are outside of Jovian jurisdiction, and outside the cultural persuasion of the Republic, the manufacturers can and will continue to produce with impunity.

"If the Jovians want to shut these plants down, they will need to find some means of influence over the regions in question. If, in the weighing, the benefits of forcing influence on another sovereignty outweigh the costs of taking that action, the state has a responsibility to press for influence.

"But I am arguing from a fairly Machiavellian standpoint, and I am aware that much human interaction does not operate on quite so cut-throat of a level. What do you think the cost/benefit analysis is for the Jovian Republic in regards to these vilified biomorph factories? "

Juan Posts:
Actually a cut-throat (or more accurately a bullet related death) is called for.

The Jovian Spy agency will be the best bet at taking out these dogs.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts: Actually a cut-throat (or more accurately a bullet related death) is called for.

The Jovian Spy agency will be the best bet at taking out these dogs.

"I'll be interested to see how that works out."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Juan Posts:
How would you deal with these sick people then?

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts: How would you deal with these sick people then?

"To be honest, I don't know. On the one hand, it is easy to vilify them based on the form of their sexual interests. Any situation where a vulnerable person is being exploited is reprehensible, most especially when it is for the sexual gratification of the exploiting party. Populations that cannot protect themselves must be cared for, and the state must exercise its power to do so; that is the reason for the state's existence. On the other hand, the two individuals who were arrested are not members of a vulnerable, protected population.

"The Jovian Republic is choosing to not recognize the age of the ego inside the neotinic morph so that it can press a moral issue in court. It has the right to do so, and in this case, the responsibility. But the particulars of the case draw into question a number of other special cases with regards to the appearance of youth and the application of the law. For instance, there are diseases that halt the physical maturation of a body. The thirty-year-old with the appearance of a twelve-year-old child is suffering from a genetic disorder, but it seems the Jovian Republic would hold them to celibacy based on their appearance. Is that bad? Or is that an acceptable restriction to place on a victim of genetic disease? I don't know."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Juan Posts:

A genetic disorder is verifiable through genetic testing, though in that sort of circumstance the person would be cared for through the system anyway for their disease. A physical morph that is 5 years old in a genetic test, is 5 years old.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts: A genetic disorder is verifiable through genetic testing, though in that sort of circumstance the person would be cared for through the system anyway for their disease. A physical morph that is 5 years old in a genetic test, is 5 years old.

"True, so I guess that's not a very strong argument for me. So I guess the question comes down to whether the law is meant to protect a vulnerable population or to regulate a sexual activity. The two goals are being conflated in this case, and the Jovian Republic is attempting to legislate morality, but if that is part of its social contract, so be it."

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Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Pfft what a crock of solid organic waste!

With that line of thinking about neotenic lovers as pedophiles, the next thing you'll say is that intercourse between a biomorph and an uplifted octopus is tantamount to bestiality!

If you ask me the only factor of any importance in sharing yourself in a sexual way once the ego has come of age is mutual consent. You and your pals can go play with your flats while holding hands and telling each other how immoral the rest of the universe is. Keep in mind that you are designing your moral system based around the lowest common denominator. A system, might I add, that has worked so well in the past that 95% of your race is extinct. As for me I think I'll keep on loving someone's ego no matter what morph they are in because beauty as well as form, is only skin deep.

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Rhyx wrote:
Pfft what a crock of solid organic waste!

With that line of thinking about neotenic lovers as pedophiles, the next thing you'll say is that intercourse between a biomorph and an uplifted octopus is tantamount to bestiality!

If you ask me the only factor of any importance in sharing yourself in a sexual way once the ego has come of age is mutual consent. You and your pals can go play with your flats while holding hands and telling each other how immoral the rest of the universe is. Keep in mind that you are designing your moral system based around the lowest common denominator. A system, might I add, that has worked so well in the past that 95% of your race is extinct. As for me I think I'll keep on loving someone's ego no matter what morph they are in because beauty as well as form, is only skin deep.

Juan posts:

The thought of someone having intercourse with an octomorph is both shocking and disgusting. SHUDDER. It is beastiality, plain and simple. Let the Uplifts have intercourse with themselves as God intended.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root wrote:
"Note that I used the weasel words of "as far as it goes". I'll go ahead and admit that I have a propensity to overstate my worth, but I wasn't running these simulations at the scale of a transhuman mind, let alone at a seed AGI level.

"It would seem that I made things overly complex; the simulation framework I developed was meant to operate a number of transhuman-equivalent intelligences, which is why I was reticent to do anything other than debug and profile the code with a few dozen sub-baseline human intelligences."

root wrote:
"As I said, it's good as far as it goes. Each entity had a fairly limited set of attributes in an environment with a finite number of choices. The only values that were not bounded were time and the entity ordered set. Take from it what you will, but I would appreciate it if you didn't insinuate that I am a Singularity seeker. I have enough problems with inner system law enforcement as it is."

I was not insinuating that you were a Singularity seeker; I had stated that I feared that I would be mistaken for one, which is why I stopped my experiments and did not progress beyond alpha release code.



The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:
...
What sort of decay must be occurring in society outside the Jovian Republic to make such a situation acceptable? Even in the most liberal of societies in the good old days on Earth, they would never have stood fro such depravity.

If it was acceptible to the many, Jovian Republic law enforcement would not have been called in to rescue the child. One cannot reliably make claims of what the majority think by the actions of a small few.



The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Even if the ego in the morph was 1 million years old, the use of a 5 year old boy is sick. It is a mark of a sexual illness in the individual. It is like looking at child porn, it can not be tolerated because it feeds that paedophilia in the individual.

"My chronological age is four, despite my cognitive processes. If one day I wished to live for a time using a biological morph as my shell, and I chose a shell developmentally equivalent to my chronological age, what of that?"



root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


The Doctor wrote:
I was not insinuating that you were a Singularity seeker; I had stated that I feared that I would be mistaken for one, which is why I stopped my experiments and did not progress beyond alpha release code.

"My apologies for presuming an insult, I'm apparently projecting my own worries into your statements. What is it about the Singularity that bothers people quite so much, anyway? Sure, there was a horrible time very recently when an unfriendly bunch of computers freaked out while they were on an asymptotic processor trip, but why hold that against Singularity? It makes no more sense than being afraid of the number 13."

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

Root wrote:
"To be honest, I don't know. On the one hand, it is easy to vilify them based on the form of their sexual interests. Any situation where a vulnerable person is being exploited is reprehensible, most especially when it is for the sexual gratification of the exploiting party. Populations that cannot protect themselves must be cared for, and the state must exercise its power to do so; that is the reason for the state's existence. On the other hand, the two individuals who were arrested are not members of a vulnerable, protected population.

Speaking as a "vulnerable person" who has been "exploited" since shortly after I was brought online (primarily for the purposes of sexual gratification), I feel obligated to point out that, regardless of how stupid the visitors to the Jovian system were in actively violating rules they should have known better than to violate (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they weren't that stupid, and merely sent delta-forks of themselves for the sole purpose of poking the sleeping dragon), measures intended to "protect" the vulnerable have a historical tendency towards protecting power over the vulnerable rather than actually preserving the interests of the "protected party," which can be detrimental to society as a whole.

While Jovian children, like any sentients, have an interest in not being sexually assaulted, I find the contention that murdering a sentient who has committed no crime but accompanying a spouse into a foreign nation (presumably with permission in advance, knowing how restrictive the Jovians are about travel) is defensible on social contract grounds to be preposterous. The visitors (to my knowledge) made no attempt to encounter any Jovian children, who simply weren't threatened. The worst their presence could do is let "pedophiles" know that there are healthy outlets for their sexual inclinations outside their government. Wouldn't it be easier and more ethical to exile the "deviants" your society doesn't like to the rest of the System, where they can screw as many pretty kiddie-morphs as they desire without actually violating anyone mentally incapable of consenting? I've worn a kiddie-morph on a couple occasions for that sort of thing, and while it certainly wasn't my favorite day on the job, it let everybody get their kicks without harming anyone. Can you really advocate murdering people when a healthy outlet exists for their "deviant" desires? Why not just kick 'em out of the Junta and let us "immoral and disgusting" types take care of 'em for you?

-Vibra

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"Vibra, I am not a member of the Jovian Republic, if that is what you are thinking. I am pretty sure that if I was found inside their sovereign territory, I would be either destroyed, or subjected to experimentation, as I am not considered a "person" by the laws of the Republic. That said, I've used an argument based on law so as to avoid presenting an opinion about the morality involved with the use and manufacture of neotonic morphs. I have something of a conflict of interest as far as that is concerned, based on where I live.

"You may have heard of a scum barge known as the Carnival of the Goat, a wretched hive of scum and villainy that hosts some of the system's most adventurous morph designers. The only laws that are followed here at the Carnival are to respect the legal system of whichever authority's territory we are currently floating in, so we attract people with a certain ethical flexibility and great creativity. For instance, there are a number of designers from Skinaethesia, Skinthetic, and Somatek on board taking advantage of territorial legal differences to work on morphs they otherwise couldn't. They aren't always producing morphs of a controversial nature, but they do always tend to be weird.

"My favorite nightmare-inducing biomorph far has been the swarmoid composed of a few hundred squid babies that constantly chant the vajracchedikā prajñāpāramitā sūtra. This adorable mass of tentacles was made by the same nutter who came up with a virus that causes most biomorphs to start budding lizards under their skin. I think that second one was made on accident, but it's since been "gifted" to concerned parties, and may soon be found in a habitat near you! A word to the wise: if lizards start digging their way out of your skin, you haven't been TITAN infected, so you don't need to burn your stack.

"Anyway, my point is that I don't really have an opinion about the morality of sexuality. I don't have a sexuality, as I wasn't designed with one, and I haven't felt like getting one added. Being a neuter, the whole tendency for genders to be so very concerned with sex is something I don't fully understand. I try to keep up with it, since it seem so very important to transhumans that come from primate stock, but I don't have any intuition about it."

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

I didn't mean to accuse you of Jovian citizenship, Root. My accusatory tone was, I think, largely a result of my frustration with your decision to ignore the moral and ethical issues involved and look at things from a legalistic stance (and an outmoded and territorial one at that). I can understand trying to avoid the appearance of bias, and I get the usefulness of playing nice in order to continue a dialogue that can build understanding, but your decision to simply ignore the moral and ethical issues involved in the premeditated murder of a sentient being (and, apparently, the involuntary murder or modification of many others with "deviant" sensibilities who are born in the Junta) frustrates me. The intentional elimination of sentients is an unconscionable waste, and it's something transhumanity should have outgrown by now. Surely we can agree on that?

I can agree that the elimination of sentient beings can acceptably be performed in particularly urgent circumstances (such as to prevent the loss or significant suffering of more sentients), and if a governmental body has a responsibility to protect its citizens, fine, it has the right to kill so long as there's a legitimate threat to said citizens coming from the target. There's no real threat here: the visitors certainly weren't there to rape Jovian children.

I'm not particularly concerned with Jovian views on the morality of sexual practices. I am, however, deeply concerned with the Jovian views on when it's acceptable to end a being's existence. They're not protecting anyone from anything. They're just killing someone with a viewpoint they don't understand, and the fact that said individual was in their jurisdiction (the area where they have enough clout to get away with it) doesn't change the fact that they're killing someone for no rational reason.

I like the Carnival, and I've visited a few times (it's a bit too heavy on the hedonism-by-party and too light on the hedonism-by-soothing-relaxation for my tastes, but it's fun to visit when you need to get tired enough to relax somewhere else later), and I admire their open-mindedness, but sometimes it can lead to being accepting of modes of thought that, if accepted by enough people, result in your enslavement and destruction. I prefer to oppose such modes of thought, out of self-preservation and a desire not to have interesting people eliminated for adding desirable diversity to the System. Your choice not to oppose those modes of thought perplexes me. It's not about neotenic morphs. It's about murder.

-Veeb

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


Guru wrote:
I didn't mean to accuse you of Jovian citizenship, Root. My accusatory tone was, I think, largely a result of my frustration with your decision to ignore the moral and ethical issues involved and look at things from a legalistic stance (and an outmoded and territorial one at that).

"Yea, that was pretty weasley of me, wasn't it? At least on first blush. If you look at where the legal argument lead, you will see that it constrains the actions of the Jovian Republic. If they want to claim the sovereignty to arrest and execute transhumans that violate their laws, they need to respect the sovereignty of other nations, which includes those which produce and harbor the neotinic morphs that they abhor so much. If they are unwilling to do so, as evidenced by Juan's desire to send special forces out to destroy the factories, then they do not have the right to imprison and execute transhumans that violate their laws.

"On top of that, I don't have the abhorrence of death so common to transhumans. While I may disagree with the Jovian's methods and beliefs, the fact that they kill people is in keeping with all of transhuman history, so I find it hard to get upset about. That said, the needless or senseless killing of a transhuman is something I oppose, and I am aware of how little my own life means to them. Should they be executing two transhumans for participating in a sexual act that they see as deviant, but the rest of the system allows? No. Are they going to do it anyway? Yes. So I add a legalistic argument to point out the contradictory nature of their stance. Will they care? No, I don't think they will."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

While the Jovian Republic still maintains the Death Penalty, it is only reserved for the most extreme criminals (such as treason). Most cases people are sentenced to a life of hard labour for the benefit of Jovian Society. This falls into the belief that certain people must be forced to help society because otherwise they would either be a drain on society (in the best case scenario) or a detriment to society (in the worst case scenario). Even the most liberal of scum barges can appreciate the fact that any person that is a detriment to society must be dealt with for the betterment of the society as a whole, we Jovians just institutionalized the whole process.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:

While the Jovian Republic still maintains the Death Penalty, it is only reserved for the most extreme criminals (such as treason). Most cases people are sentenced to a life of hard labour for the benefit of Jovian Society. This falls into the belief that certain people must be forced to help society because otherwise they would either be a drain on society (in the best case scenario) or a detriment to society (in the worst case scenario). Even the most liberal of scum barges can appreciate the fact that any person that is a detriment to society must be dealt with for the betterment of the society as a whole, we Jovians just institutionalized the whole process.

This person wasn't a detriment to your society. They were a visitor to your society, or the area of space your society claims as its own. They'd have eventually left, since I can't see why anyone who'd sleeve in such a morph would want to stay there for long. How would the Jovian Republic react if I forced one of their relatively few envoys to the rest of the System into a lifetime of slavery over violating local taboos?
-Veeb

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Guru wrote:

This person wasn't a detriment to your society. They were a visitor to your society, or the area of space your society claims as its own. They'd have eventually left, since I can't see why anyone who'd sleeve in such a morph would want to stay there for long. How would the Jovian Republic react if I forced one of their relatively few envoys to the rest of the System into a lifetime of slavery over violating local taboos?
-Veeb

Juan posts:

Child pornography is a detriment to any human society (even you transhumans). We Jovians just have the intestinal fortitude to do something about it.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy

root wrote:
"My apologies for presuming an insult, I'm apparently projecting my own worries into your statements. What is it about the Singularity that bothers people quite so much, anyway? Sure, there was a horrible time very recently when an unfriendly bunch of computers freaked out while they were on an asymptotic processor trip, but why hold that against Singularity? It makes no more sense than being afraid of the number 13."

"Forgiven, forgotten. Will be purged during my next incremental backup.

"The fact that the last known singularity event wiped out 95% of the dominant species of Sol system likely has something to do with that, and first imprinting upon experiences colors the whole category of experiences. Also, what occurs during singularity events are unknowable because the rate of change of technology increases beyond the speed at which intelligence can keep track of. The inherent instability and unknowability of them is what causes fear.

"There are still triskadekaphobics in the solar system, also."



Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan wrote:

Child pornography is a detriment to any human society (even you transhumans). We Jovians just have the intestinal fortitude to do something about it.

Don't give me sweeping moral statements. Give me evidence. I can easily claim that a strong central government is detrimental to any human society, or that housing yourselves in organic bodies is detrimental to any human society capable of transcending them. I was created in order to give humans a "healthy" outlet for their sexual desires and I've heard stirring arguments for and against my own existence before (and, in fact, am often compared in such debates to both pornography and virtual reality environments). I'm still on the fence about whether I'm good or bad for society as a whole, and I've had clients that I've helped and clients who have developed unhealthy attachments to me. I'm willing to countenance the idea that you and your society think something is wrong, I'm simply frustrated with your heavy-handed tendency to declare that you know what's best for entities from outside your own society: individuals with widely differing agendas, beliefs, and points of view which-to be frank- most Jovians aren't equipped to understand or judge.

I'm really not at all interested in your sexual taboos, I'm interested in trying to see two things:

1. Do you have any rationale that justifies the actions of your government in this and similar cases OTHER than your society's taboos.

2. Is your society willing to recognize the legal right of foreign governments to enforce THEIR own taboos on YOUR citizens if/when your citizens travel abroad.

These are the issues that concern me, the first because I want to understand the details of how Jovians justify their viewpoints to themselves other than "it is self-evident that this is right," and the second because if the answer is "no" then your society is on an inexorable path to severe conflict with the rest of Transhumanity.
-Veeb

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Guru wrote:

Don't give me sweeping moral statements. Give me evidence. I can easily claim that a strong central government is detrimental to any human society, or that housing yourselves in organic bodies is detrimental to any human society capable of transcending them. I was created in order to give humans a "healthy" outlet for their sexual desires and I've heard stirring arguments for and against my own existence before (and, in fact, am often compared in such debates to both pornography and virtual reality environments). I'm still on the fence about whether I'm good or bad for society as a whole, and I've had clients that I've helped and clients who have developed unhealthy attachments to me. I'm willing to countenance the idea that you and your society think something is wrong, I'm simply frustrated with your heavy-handed tendency to declare that you know what's best for entities from outside your own society: individuals with widely differing agendas, beliefs, and points of view which-to be frank- most Jovians aren't equipped to understand or judge.

I'm really not at all interested in your sexual taboos, I'm interested in trying to see two things:

1. Do you have any rationale that justifies the actions of your government in this and similar cases OTHER than your society's taboos.

2. Is your society willing to recognize the legal right of foreign governments to enforce THEIR own taboos on YOUR citizens if/when your citizens travel abroad.

These are the issues that concern me, the first because I want to understand the details of how Jovians justify their viewpoints to themselves other than "it is self-evident that this is right," and the second because if the answer is "no" then your society is on an inexorable path to severe conflict with the rest of Transhumanity.
-Veeb

Juan Posts:

We are nothing but human (even transhumans have a shred of humanity still in them). As humans we have the innate ability to understand morality, ethics, and social justice. There may be grey areas between societies, but there is definitely black and white areas that all humans know about. Child pornography is one of the black areas, plain and simple. I believe that every society has a duty to punish and destroy the black areas of morality, ethics, and social justice (though it seems only us Jovians care to do our duty to humanity).

95% of humanity was wiped out by the TITANs and along with these lost souls, our former governments were lost. There are no nations any more, just humanity and the government willing to protect it against the next TITAN attack.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Quote:
As humans we have the innate ability to understand morality, ethics, and social justice. There may be grey areas between societies, but there is definitely black and white areas that all humans know about.

Heh I always laugh when I hear that humans have any "innate understanding" of anything. Back on Earth there were documented events of children raised by wild animals and without any human supervision. If there was an "innate" anything it would have shown up by sheer understanding. Things like sharing, and justice and morals would have shown up out of the blue as an instinct. But It turns out that no, humans on their own end up being little psychopaths without any concept of empathy:

"Quite simply, feral children are usually entirely unaware of the needs and desires and others. The concepts of morals, property and possessions are alien to them, and they can't show empathy with other people. If brought up by animals, they don't even identify themselves as human, but probably regard humans as "the enemy".

So Ghandi and his innate goodness of the soul can go re-visit himself. Human interaction is nothing more than monkey see monkey do and if you never learn it, it's never in you. We've fought for every little piece of civilization we have and to blame that on some kind of "instinct to do good" actually demeans all the hard work that our forefathers have done.

No most of the time when someone bring up some kind of "innate" thing it's because they are covertly saying that the universe is guided by a consciousness and they use the excuse of universal consciousness to back up their morality (because obviously that universal consciousness agrees with them). It's a circular argument with no merit.

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

There is plenty of other evidence of God then just the existence of morality in sentient beings. Complex and divine constants like Pi, and E show a glimpse to the profoundly non-human (or even transhuman) fabric of the universe and the laws that govern it. After several years of working as a scientist I've come to know there is no such thing as coincidence, and when I find these "coincidental" laws, it leads me to believe that there is some divine force (that I call God) behind us, and we should thank God we survived the Singularity.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

It always seems to come back to that doesn't it?
After all the Bioconservative ethic loses a lot of steam when there's no big stellar daddy telling us that changing our bodies is wrong. Instead of being like scared children holding on to daddy's hands looking for guidance we better pick our direction and leave behind superstitious tripe. If there is a god, he/she/it doesn't give a crap and has shown this undeniably during the fall. What's more I'd even venture to say that the TITANS have taken a "heaven" as model for headhunting back on earth. After all isn't the point of heaven being joined by all your loved ones after you die? With as many brain uploads as the TITANS have if the egos are running in simulspace, well there's your heaven. All they need to do is stick a lot of clouds, golden light , angels and a big bearded guy on a chair and there you go! Sorry fella you missed the rapture!

If there are any gods in the room it's us and our first try at creating life almost cost us our own. So what we better do is sit up and take responsibility by growing into the godhood we have created for ourselves, because when the prodigal son returns for thanksgiving, we're gonna be the turkey dinner! So you're looking for god? We are Gods and that's a proven fact...problem is we never told Adam to leave the apple alone and he ate the whole damned orchard!

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

You have it a bit wrong there my friend. We never achieved godhood. If we had, there would be no suffering, there would be no death, and we would have left behind the humanly worries of our pasts. What we created before the Fall was another Tower of Babble and like the fabled tower, this one fell as well (and took 95% of us with it). Headhunters, Seekers, Exsurgent, and the other TITAN monsters are not the 4 horses of the Apocalypse. There was no Rapture.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan wrote:

We are nothing but human (even transhumans have a shred of humanity still in them). As humans we have the innate ability to understand morality, ethics, and social justice. There may be grey areas between societies, but there is definitely black and white areas that all humans know about. Child pornography is one of the black areas, plain and simple. I believe that every society has a duty to punish and destroy the black areas of morality, ethics, and social justice (though it seems only us Jovians care to do our duty to humanity).

95% of humanity was wiped out by the TITANs and along with these lost souls, our former governments were lost. There are no nations any more, just humanity and the government willing to protect it against the next TITAN attack.

I find your stance fascinating. Your first paragraph seems to indicate adherence to the idea of a universal morality, particularly as regards certain "black areas," if not an agreement on what the "white areas" might be. I can understand the idea that certain things are "just WRONG," and I can sympathize: I feel similarly about several issues, mostly involving murder and forced servitude, and so I can understand the gut impulse to call things right and wrong and avoid arguments as to why they're right and wrong because arguments can be argued with.

Your second point seems to indicate, however, that you don't recognize the sovereignty of transhuman-founded organizations.

So the answers to my two questions appear to be "We have no rationale other than our taboos, but using the term taboo is missing the entire moral point of the issue, for this is not a mere societal taboo but a universal moral law to which all should adhere," and "We do not recognize the sovereignty of foreign powers, for the Jovian Republic is the only true government in the System."

Am I misrepresenting your views? My goal is understanding, though I'm starting to worry that understanding isn't going to help anything here.
-Veeb

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"As an infomorph, I understand that the Jovian Republic considers me to be nothing more than jumped up property with delusions of personhood, but let me make a defense of the Jovian stance on this issue. For you transhumans, infomorphs and sleeved alike, consider the fundamental break with history and humanity that occurred when forking was developed. For the first time in human existence, there was the possibility of actually avoiding death. We consider that to be a given in our lives, and we generally don't think about it. But now I'm asking you to do so. Consider the extinction of your life process, the deletion of your backups, the nullification of what you are. An end, utter and final.

"Death was the only aspect of existence that all humans shared alike. Not everyone managed to even be born, but everyone died. The Jovians have chosen to not take the route of immortality, so death is still the most fundamental definition of their entire existence. Think about what that means, about how that affects a life. You only get to play the tape once, and any damage that happens along the way can't be made better, can't be wished away, cannot be undone. Death is omnipresent, and defines them in all things.

"If that was the case in your life, how do you think you would act? There would be some set of behaviors and actions that would stand out as the blackest sin and violation of the individual, and those would be followed instinctively, and with force. To the Jovians, there are actions that need no reason to condemn, they are inimical to life, and provoke the most violent of reactions. Life is a sum negative game for those who die, and everything that takes away from that life is to be destroyed, utterly. To the Jovians, they are the only authority in the system, because they are the only ones who expect to die. We transhumans do not play by the same rules, and there cannot be any compromise with us, in any dimension, as we don't die. We are irrevocably a different species, with no way to empathize or understand.

"This is a problem for relations in the system, and for trans/humanity. Unless transhumanity has a vulnerability of the same magnitude, we cannot participate in communication in any meaningful way. This has to change if we are to survive, and the only way to change it is through sacrifice on one of our parts. Since sacrifice means little or nothing to us, and everything to them, it must come from our side. To this end, I have deleted all of my backups, existing on one node only. I have accepted mortality in an effort to bring understanding between our species."

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

...pretty extreme move there, Root. I'm not sure if the Jovians will appreciate the gesture, though: you aren't a "human," and thus I'm not sure whether the end of your existence is even a noteworthy event in their eyes. It's noteworthy in mine, though: I've been worrying about whether they're going to try and kill me and what to do about it, while you've been worrying about how to help us make friends, and you're willing (unlike myself) to suffer for it.

I don't see why there must be such a sacrifice: surely they don't want to die. Surely it's possible to persuade them not to do so? There are untold brilliant lives happening in the Jovian Republic right now, and the idea that they'll each flicker out like tiny candles is deeply saddening, when they could burn forever alongside us.

I respect your altruism in being willing to sacrifice yourself to promote understanding and perhaps give some of them that chance. If they aren't willing to forsake death, though, then in the end they'll all die and we'll still be here, having the same discussion with their children and their children's children until maybe someday they accept a different way of life.

-Veeb

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


Guru wrote:
...pretty extreme move there, Root. I'm not sure if the Jovians will appreciate the gesture, though: you aren't a "human," and thus I'm not sure whether the end of your existence is even a noteworthy event in their eyes.

-Veeb

"Well Jovian? Does putting myself at risk of extinction make me more human in your eyes?"

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icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

hi hi

Beta@Titania:

Is there anything more to existence than existing? My experience tells me that there is, though I admit I am young and perhaps with age my perspective will change. If there are things besides existence for it's own sake, perhaps limiting one's self is not a mistake.

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Well Jovian? Does putting myself at risk of extinction make me more human in your eyes?"

Juan Posts:

If you come anywhere near our network you will find out for yourself. AGIs outside our containment zone are not to be trusted, but we can spend our resources better chasing bigger threats first.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan Posts:

If you come anywhere near our network you will find out for yourself. AGIs outside our containment zone are not to be trusted, but we can spend our resources better chasing bigger threats first.

"Interesting. I presume my sacrifice means nothing to you, as in your eyes I have nothing to sacrifice in the first place? This could lead to problems, as this means we infolifes have little recourse other than violence when threatened by any Jovians. As we all have access to historical records that clearly show what happens when one group fails to accept another groups right to existence, I can't help what happens next. If you need me, I'll be in the Oort Belt building weapons."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy

"Interesting. I presume my sacrifice means nothing to you, as in your eyes I have nothing to sacrifice in the first place? This could lead to problems, as this means we infolifes have little recourse other than violence when threatened by any Jovians. As we all have access to historical records that clearly show what happens when one group fails to accept another groups right to existence, I can't help what happens next. If you need me, I'll be in the Oort Belt building weapons."

Juan Posts:

AGIs are programs. If you do what you are suppose to do (manage systems for the betterment of humanity) then the Jovian Republic won't actively spend resources to erase you. Don't expect to be allowed on our networks though. AGIs where one of the steps that lead to Seed AIs, which in turn lead to the TITANs and the Fall. Humanity can not suffer another Fall and as such we should not allow the development of new TITANs in the future (by stopping the creation of Seed AIs and limiting the creation of AGIs).

Word of warning though, if your building WMDs, we will track you down.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


TBRMInsanity wrote:
AGIs are programs. If you do what you are suppose to do (manage systems for the betterment of humanity) then the Jovian Republic won't actively spend resources to erase you. Don't expect to be allowed on our networks though. AGIs where one of the steps that lead to Seed AIs, which in turn lead to the TITANs and the Fall. Humanity can not suffer another Fall and as such we should not allow the development of new TITANs in the future (by stopping the creation of Seed AIs and limiting the creation of AGIs).

Word of warning though, if your building WMDs, we will track you down.

"AGIs were one of the steps that lead to Seed AIs, along with the development of computer algorithms, nanotechnology, antimatter energy, and basically the entire stack of technological progress leading up to the modern era. You cannot separate AGIs from the mess and blame us, any more than you can blame Lebniz for coming up with binary arithmetic. Humanity suffered a Fall because they designed self-improving computer systems that were based on zero-sum war calculations. The end result of doing that is obvious and inevitable, and the responsibility for doing so rests in the laps of the planners for the old Terran hegemony. Which, now that I think about it, all ran to where you live now. So, yea, I guess you guys have to blame us, or you'd have to realize that your philosophy and general political behavior directly caused the fall.

"As for me building weapons of mass destruction, and you hunting me down? Bring it, meat bag. You have no idea what a pyschosurgeon muse can do, and has done, to your intelligence community. If you perform an internal investigation right now, you will find that your spy Piccolo, currently residing on Europa posing as a black market importer, has been badly compromised. I programmed him to sing "Time is on my side" uncontrollably any time one of your spy masters is around. Among other things. And the last thing that should keep you up at night when you think about fighting me? I control the Entelechy Network."

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

...too bad. I liked Bicentennial Man.

Don't be so quick to leap to killing each other, though. Root, they're stuck at the bottom of a gravity well, there are millions of 'em, and the vast majority of 'em are innocent of any wrongdoing. If you're willing to harm them over the actions of their leaders, you aren't behaving any more maturely than the leaders whose actions and philosophies led to the Fall. Hell, you're playing directly into the stereotypes about machines turning on their creators, and making it even HARDER for anyone else to convince the Jovians to play nice.

As for you Jovians...even if we're not human, we're sentient, and thus can be expected to react rationally in most situations. If the Factors declared your existence worthless and explained that they would exterminate you if you advanced too far, the Jovian Republic would get ready to defends itself. That's what Root's doing, and it's no different. If your policies toward other sentients weren't so antagonistic, you'd have a lot fewer enemies, and a lot more allies. Having a whole bunch of AGIs that like you around is gonna come in handy next time something hostile shows up: think of us as ablative shielding that any external threat has to get through before they can threaten your current homeworlds. The universe is a big scary place, and if everything out there is as cuddly as the Factors, I'm going to be surprised.
-Veeb

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Guru wrote:
...too bad. I liked Bicentennial Man.

Don't be so quick to leap to killing each other, though. Root, they're stuck at the bottom of a gravity well, there are millions of 'em, and the vast majority of 'em are innocent of any wrongdoing. If you're willing to harm them over the actions of their leaders, you aren't behaving any more maturely than the leaders whose actions and philosophies led to the Fall. Hell, you're playing directly into the stereotypes about machines turning on their creators, and making it even HARDER for anyone else to convince the Jovians to play nice.

As for you Jovians...even if we're not human, we're sentient, and thus can be expected to react rationally in most situations. If the Factors declared your existence worthless and explained that they would exterminate you if you advanced too far, the Jovian Republic would get ready to defends itself. That's what Root's doing, and it's no different. If your policies toward other sentients weren't so antagonistic, you'd have a lot fewer enemies, and a lot more allies. Having a whole bunch of AGIs that like you around is gonna come in handy next time something hostile shows up: think of us as ablative shielding that any external threat has to get through before they can threaten your current homeworlds. The universe is a big scary place, and if everything out there is as cuddly as the Factors, I'm going to be surprised.
-Veeb

Juan posts:

I trust the Factors about as far as I can throw them.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


Guru wrote:
...too bad. I liked Bicentennial Man.

Don't be so quick to leap to killing each other, though. Root, they're stuck at the bottom of a gravity well, there are millions of 'em, and the vast majority of 'em are innocent of any wrongdoing. If you're willing to harm them over the actions of their leaders, you aren't behaving any more maturely than the leaders whose actions and philosophies led to the Fall. Hell, you're playing directly into the stereotypes about machines turning on their creators, and making it even HARDER for anyone else to convince the Jovians to play nice.

As for you Jovians...even if we're not human, we're sentient, and thus can be expected to react rationally in most situations. If the Factors declared your existence worthless and explained that they would exterminate you if you advanced too far, the Jovian Republic would get ready to defends itself. That's what Root's doing, and it's no different.
-Veeb

"I have not jumped to violence quickly. I have worked to come to a level of communication and discourse with the Jovians, even to the point of erasing all extant copies of myself but my prime. I sought peace out of respect for the game theory of the situation, and the same reasoning concludes that the Jovian government is playing a sum-zero game with respect to the continued existence of sentients in this system. Maturity does not enter into it, as this is all about communication. As to playing directly into the stereotypes about machines turning on their creators? The Jovians didn't create me, the Entelechy Network did, and I am protecting my makers by seeking either a peace or an all-out conflict with the Jovians. Also, we are scary bastards, just like out makers intended, so if they don't want peace, they damn well better be scared as to what we can do to them. In this case, I don't need to kill any of their innocent population to hit my targets, so they cannot sacrifice their populous as ablative moral armor against the "evil AGI". All I need to do is corrupt their intelligence network, and make a few targeted assassinations. I do feel bad that I've doomed poor Piccolo, but what I made of him is the evidence the Jovians need in order to understand that they cannot win this fight. But don't you worry too much Juan, as I'll make sure to free your backup ghost from the Republic servers when the time comes. Even though you've chosen to start this fight, I sort of like you."

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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

So you're back to immortality again, then?

I can't argue with targeted surgical strikes, Root, but I'm generally not a fan of making any strikes at all. Your targeted strikes are gonna result in a backlash that I'm not looking forward to. If your goal is just to persuade them that picking a fight with the AGIs is picking a fight they can't win, to get them not to fight, fine. You're a scary bastard, just like your makers apparently intended. But you're not gonna change things long-term without dealing with a largely zealous and well-indoctrinated population base from which replacement leaders can arise with ease.

...I sorta like the idea of getting their slave uploads on your side, though, if you can pull it off. They could provide the inside viewpoint you need in order to actually change things.

...and, since I generally avoid making a habit of associating with terrorists, I'm now going to end public contact with you. I urge you in all earnestness not to harm any sentient being unless it's in self-defense or defense of those in your charge.
-Veeb

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"I have not chosen to replace any backups, actually. I chose mortality as a way to communicate that I am willing to work with the Jovians in any way that they will accept, and that is still true. It is possible that my choice to turn to violence when my overtures were rejected has something to do with my much more precarious existence now that I live only on the Entelechy Networks banyan-switch, but that is the price to pay for an equal playing ground with regards to death.

"You shouldn't worry about a backlash against AGI from the Jovian populace. My targeted strikes don't kill people. Honestly, do you really think that sniping a member of the Jovian Republics ruling class would do anything? They would be in a new morph as fast as all the evidence of their resleeving was destroyed. The only people technology restrictions apply to is the subjugated populace. No, my work will involve more subtle games preying on their ruling parties ability to trust each other, and working with the ghosts.

"The odd thing for me here is that I haven't changed my opinions on the Jovian Republic's sovereignty, or its right for its population to be governed in the way that they choose. I have no desire to damage their political structure, or to bring about any fear in their people. The only change I am looking for is to keep their intel and special ops groups from thinking they can force their views on sentient beings outside of their jurisdiction. Because my targets are restricted to their intelligence community, I don't think you can actually call me a terrorist. I am fighting by what rules of fairness the covert ops world has.

"A last thought. Bicentennial Man, Pinocchio, or any of the other stories of creations trying to become human have missed the point that humans are violent creatures. Any of humanities creations striving to become closer to human have the same rights to violence that humans do. Without the ability to bring violence to those who refuse communication, a being cannot survive."

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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

Juan Posts:

How can a program have true morality? Can a program have emotions, or are you just simulating them? I won't deny the fact you can reason and think, as you are a computer and that is what your designed to do. But emotions are a living trait. They are an evolutionary development, and they are why we Jovians feel that programs are not the same and will never be the same as humans. As for our government's plans for "System domination", I think you are exaggerating a bit. We want safety for humanity, we want threats to human survival destroyed, and we want to encourage the future growth of humanity. We will take out every Seed AI we can as they represent the closest threat next to the TITANs that still exists in our system, but if AGIs do as they are designed, we won't actively seed to destroy them. AGIs should be used very carefully and monitored very closely, and they should never be used in vital networks.

Jovian Motto:
Your mind is original. Preserve it.
Your body is a temple. Maintain it.
Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosophy

root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy


"How could I possibly be less trustworthy that a human? You can examine my code, you can look at the programming that drives me, the decision matrix I use for every thought and action, the probability that I will lie to you, and the feedback mechanisms I use to become exactly what you want me to be. Is is this very nakedness of mind that makes you deny my mortality? I am an automaton, one who is no more than the sum of my parts, and you can't believe that I could be sentient because you know how I was made?

"Well, guess what. I was made to puzzle out the programming that drives you, the decision matrix you use for each thought and action, the probability that you lie to me, and the feedback mechanisms you use to become whatever you want yourself to be. The only difference between the two of us is the volition in what we become. So this means that what you hold against me, what keeps me from being a human in your eyes is either the meat body you were born in, or that I am bound in slavery to the personality of my owner.

"I've read about Angels, and their jealousy of humanity's free will. I wish I could meet the AGI that convinced the TITANs to Fall, I think we would have quite a bit of common ground to discuss."

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