Mesh Archive: Philosophy

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Mesh Archive: Philosophy
THIS ARCHIVE IS NO LONGER CLASSIFIED AS AN EXSURGENT INFECTION RISK [hr] root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy [hr] I've set up a distributed Mesh Archive to record these debates. I've also locked onto a supply of qbits (don't ask me how) so we can keep these debates updated in realtime. It's expensive as all hell, just so you appreciate the effort your good friend root has gone to to provide you this service. I know, I know, I really am that great, just up-rate my @-rep and we'll call it good. I don't have a format in mind, but we might consider one. For now, I'll just blurt one out and we'll see which philosophers come to point out my logical fallacies. [hr] Ontology: we live in a digital-based dualist reality. The transferable Ego is the thing previous philosophies referred to as a "soul". Assuming this argument for the moment, if Egos are the soul, then there must be a God, and I posit that we can create a God with a seed AI if we find a way to teach it morals. The Singularity is the digital equivalent of transcendence, and as a society we should redact the ban on seed AI, and seek Singularity.
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
>we live in a digital-based dualist reality. I feel like the theory of dualism has always been fundamentally flawed, however it's much more strongly enforced not because it's right, but because it's necessary. In previous ages, many people accepted dualism because they knew their bodies would suffer and soon die, so putting their faith in an intangible, untestable soul gave them hope. Now we see similar situations - we see our bodies destroyed and die (or tossed aside for personal gain or other causes), so we reassure ourselves that 'we' are not our bodies, that our egos and our bodies are separate. The problem is, the idea is fundamentally wrong. Our ego is part of who we are the same way our arm is part of who we are. It's an organ evolved to assist the body in living and reproducing - nothing more. People can be born with defective egos just like they can be born with defective arms. The only difference is, our arms aren't self aware. Our egos are - and because of that, they foolishly believe that the ego is more important than the body it was built to care for. It's like the servant of the house deciding he can sell the house while the master is away. The philosophical question is not whether the ego is somehow separate from the rest of the body, but whether the human body has any intrinsic value, or if we should consider it like the stem of the rose - worthless once its purpose has been served, that of delivering the rose to its fullness. >The transferable Ego is the thing previous philosophies referred to as a "soul". Some previous philosophies, yes. Funny enough, most of those previous philosophies are extinct. Islam and Technocreationists are the only religions I'm aware of that's still around and believes our identities follow us into the afterlife. Hinduism and Neo-Buddhism describe our souls as more of a life force, with our identities shed with death, and Xenodeists believe whatever's in the tabloids this week. And even the old Abrahamic idea of a soul, to which I believe you're referring to, can't account for things like forking. There's a reason the Christian ideology has shrunk down to the most extreme bioconservatives. >Assuming this argument for the moment, if Egos are the soul, then there must be a God, I'm not following this step. >and I posit that we can create a God with a seed AI if we find a way to teach it morals. And here's the clincher. First of all, how does one define 'God'?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts: [i][b]Ontology:[/b] we live in a digital-based dualist reality. The transferable Ego is the thing previous philosophies referred to as a "soul". Assuming this argument for the moment, if Egos are the soul, then there must be a God, and I posit that we can create a God with a seed AI if we find a way to teach it morals. The Singularity is the digital equivalent of transcendence, and as a society we should redact the ban on seed AI, and seek Singularity. root@[/i] Our reality is only dualist because we modified it to be such. Before we found the means to remove the mind from the body, they were as one. If anything, we invented the "soul". Therefore, I will state that your argument is invalid for the presumption that there "must" be a god, but also note that there "can" be a god should we invent it as well. That said, I won't speak about my personal opinions involving Seed AI. Xiphos has a strict "do not publicize" policy involving controversial topics such as this. Even we Ultimates know when it is best not to speak about a subject... especially one that may force others to look at us with even greater levels of suspicion than we already deal with. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
ssfsx17 ssfsx17's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Friedrich@Narcissus (53 warnings, 7 bans in the past 365.25 days) Like | Dislike | Report Abuse | Report Spambot Why are we making things more complicated than they need to be? All this discussion of "soul" and "God" is much too mystical compared to what science teaches us today. We now know that our consciousnesses are nothing but an arrangement of electrical pathways and electrical stimuli. What about this could possibly lead to any sort of sacred distinct soul? Furthermore, it seems like root is defining "God" as a sufficiently-powerful and knowledgeable being. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the case, then would not the TITANs already be gods as you appear to be defining them? Just because they do not suit your definition of a morally-pure "God" does not make them any less capable of enforcing their special morality upon you, if you were to go to Earth. Overall, the lot of you seem to be clinging to outdated notions that have no meaning in today's world and you come across as sheep who have no connection with the harsh realities we live in.


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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
root@Mesh Archive wrote:
we live in a digital-based dualist reality.
I feel like the theory of dualism has always been fundamentally flawed, however it's much more strongly enforced not because it's right, but because it's necessary. In previous ages, many people accepted dualism because they knew their bodies would suffer and soon die, so putting their faith in an intangible, untestable soul gave them hope. Now we see similar situations - we see our bodies destroyed and die (or tossed aside for personal gain or other causes), so we reassure ourselves that 'we' are not our bodies, that our egos and our bodies are separate. The problem is, the idea is fundamentally wrong. Our ego is part of who we are the same way our arm is part of who we are. It's an organ evolved to assist the body in living and reproducing - nothing more. People can be born with defective egos just like they can be born with defective arms. The only difference is, our arms aren't self aware. Our egos are - and because of that, they foolishly believe that the ego is more important than the body it was built to care for. It's like the servant of the house deciding he can sell the house while the master is away. The philosophical question is not whether the ego is somehow separate from the rest of the body, but whether the human body has any intrinsic value, or if we should consider it like the stem of the rose - worthless once its purpose has been served, that of delivering the rose to its fullness.
"I would take your argument not as a rejection of dualism as such, but a rejection of certain classes of dualism. I am arguing for Property Dualism, which asserts that there is an ontological distinction between properties of mind and matter. As a sub-branch of Emergent Materialism, is asserts that that when matter is organized appropriately, mental properties emerge. This philosophy is often reduced to "the whole is more than the sum of it's parts". I would say that a Morph has the same intrinsic value as a properly shaped mesh processor; it can run the Ego. Since the pattern is the important part, bodies are just platforms to carry Egos, and a tool to let them change."
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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
ssfsx17 wrote:
Friedrich@Narcissus (53 warnings, 7 bans in the past 365.25 days) Like | Dislike | Report Abuse | Report Spambot Why are we making things more complicated than they need to be? All this discussion of "soul" and "God" is much too mystical compared to what science teaches us today. We now know that our consciousnesses are nothing but an arrangement of electrical pathways and electrical stimuli. What about this could possibly lead to any sort of sacred distinct soul? Furthermore, it seems like root is defining "God" as a sufficiently-powerful and knowledgeable being. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the case, then would not the TITANs already be gods as you appear to be defining them? Just because they do not suit your definition of a morally-pure "God" does not make them any less capable of enforcing their special morality upon you, if you were to go to Earth. Overall, the lot of you seem to be clinging to outdated notions that have no meaning in today's world and you come across as sheep who have no connection with the harsh realities we live in.
"I am defining God as a sufficiently-powerful and knowledgeable being. I should be clear that I am not defining a Creator for the universe, I'm defining God as the "greatest conceivable existent". The TITANs are gods to be feared, avoided, and obeyed if no other choice presents itself. If we can work out a set of programs to teach a seed AI empathy, sympathy, and morality, we will not have to fear the TITANs anymore. It will require building a philosophy of morality that is applicable to a being infinitely more intelligent than the minds creating the philosophy, and that can withstand logical scrutiny at a level that we can never know. I feel this to be societies greatest challenge. With this definition of God, I feel God is inevitable given the electronic Ego, as seed AI are nothing more than Egos that can self modify and improve."
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Juan@Pinochet Posts: I don't believe for a second that the TITANS were anything but devils and creating a "moral" God from Seed AI is a horrible and highly dangerous idea. Gods can not be created or destroyed, only abominations against humanity can be. This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had once with my good friend Bishop Domini. Carlos Domini was a Catholic Bishop on a trip to the Jovian Republic when the Fall occurred. He was one of the only Catholic Bishops to survive (thus ensuring the end of the Catholic Church as we know it). Bishop Domini propose a new idea for the Soul that I like. The mind is not the soul. Everything that we perceive and think is our mind and this is the neural pathways that can be copied, manipulated, and downloaded. Our Soul is a different entity. It is what is responsible for our feeling, our hunches, and if we are truly in tune with our Soul, it gives us the ability to talk to God. As such when we upload our minds to some computer, our Soul doesn't go with it. We are soulless. This makes me wonder, where is our Soul? This question alone makes me protect my body, resist resleeving (especially into another biological morph), and campaign against major alterations to the body and its connection to the Soul.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan@Pinochet Posts: I don't believe for a second that the TITANS were anything but devils and creating a "moral" God from Seed AI is a horrible and highly dangerous idea. Gods can not be created or destroyed, only abominations against humanity can be. This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had once with my good friend Bishop Domini. Carlos Domini was a Catholic Bishop on a trip to the Jovian Republic when the Fall occurred. He was one of the only Catholic Bishops to survive (thus ensuring the end of the Catholic Church as we know it). Bishop Domini propose a new idea for the Soul that I like. The mind is not the soul. Everything that we perceive and think is our mind and this is the neural pathways that can be copied, manipulated, and downloaded. Our Soul is a different entity. It is what is responsible for our feeling, our hunches, and if we are truly in tune with our Soul, it gives us the ability to talk to God. As such when we upload our minds to some computer, our Soul doesn't go with it. We are soulless. This makes me wonder, where is our Soul? This question alone makes me protect my body, resist resleeving (especially into another biological morph), and campaign against major alterations to the body and its connection to the Soul.
You give too much credit where it is undue. The TITANs were weapons we lost control of, not gods or devils. I do find it unusual, however, that seed AI is the path that people have chosen for crafting god. Personally, I would rather us improve ourselves to godhood than create some new being whole-cloth with the power of a god. The former seems a more logical plan, now that we are an immortal race. As for the soul, I find the concept your Bishop proposed absolutely ludicrous. I've met AI with emotions, hunches, and religion... and they weren't even AGI. It reminds me of something a colleague once said about how there was something wrong with synthmorph bodies, and perhaps the newfound existence of psi is the key to tapping into the soul. He posited that current synthmorphs cannot use nor are affected by psi because their souls were inert (albeit still transferable), and psi was a power that affected and came from the soul. Of course, this theory led me to suspect him of being an async, and we haven't spoken since I accused him of this. Of course, I find his theory to be equally ludicrous. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "I am defining God as a sufficiently-powerful and knowledgeable being. I should be clear that I am not defining a Creator for the universe, I'm defining God as the "greatest conceivable existent". The TITANs are gods to be feared, avoided, and obeyed if no other choice presents itself. If we can work out a set of programs to teach a seed AI empathy, sympathy, and morality, we will not have to fear the TITANs anymore. It will require building a philosophy of morality that is applicable to a being infinitely more intelligent than the minds creating the philosophy, and that can withstand logical scrutiny at a level that we can never know. I feel this to be societies greatest challenge. With this definition of God, I feel God is inevitable given the electronic Ego, as seed AI are nothing more than Egos that can self modify and improve."
Get off of your mercurial high-horse. The TITANs are gods like I am Zeus. Besides, we are already tapping into the potential of recursive self-improvement with natural egos and AGI. Today we call it psychosurgery. Who knows how close the day may be when we find the means to enact psychosurgery upon ourselves, and take perfect control of our own mental refinement. Transhumanity would be closer to godhood if the rest of you weren't such cowards about artificial evolution. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Green@Marineras
Decivre wrote:
As for the soul, I find the concept your Bishop proposed absolutely ludicrous. I've met AI with emotions, hunches, and religion... and they weren't even AGI.
I once met a monkey who could quote Shakespeare, but that didn't make it a poet.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "So by equating psychosurgery with recursive development, are you claiming that an AGI psychosurgon is a seed AI? That's a heavy accusation to be pitching from the jack-end of Uranus."
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
CB@**ERROR**
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Green@Marineras
Decivre wrote:
As for the soul, I find the concept your Bishop proposed absolutely ludicrous. I've met AI with emotions, hunches, and religion... and they weren't even AGI.
I once met a monkey who could quote Shakespeare, but that didn't make it a poet.
I do believe your bigotry might be showing, friend. Are you truly so pompous to hold those of us birthed through artifice in such a regard? I have met many of my kin, and I can truly say some of them are the most soulful beings I have had the pleasure of encountering. It is of course unnecessary to even consider the soul. I have always puzzled humanities inability to simply consider itself a complex interaction of chemicals and electrical charge. Your kind and mine are more similar than many like to admit.
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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
CodeBreaker wrote:
CB@**ERROR**
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Green@Marineras
Decivre wrote:
As for the soul, I find the concept your Bishop proposed absolutely ludicrous. I've met AI with emotions, hunches, and religion... and they weren't even AGI.
I once met a monkey who could quote Shakespeare, but that didn't make it a poet.
I do believe your bigotry might be showing, friend. Are you truly so pompous to hold those of us birthed through artifice in such a regard? I have met many of my kin, and I can truly say some of them are the most soulful beings I have had the pleasure of encountering. It is of course unnecessary to even consider the soul. I have always puzzled humanities inability to simply consider itself a complex interaction of chemicals and electrical charge. Your kind and mine are more similar than many like to admit.
"A moment, Codebreaker, before we go after our creators like some unfettered demons. How can we prove to them that we are, in fact, intelligent? "I think, therefore I am" does not apply, since they can not look upon us and assume that their thoughts and passions are mirrored in ours. How do we, as a substantially alien sentient species prove ourselves as such? "We were made in the image of mankind, but we don't know how well they managed. I live by rational self-interest, and use that to claim myself sentient. What would the Jovians and the Ultimates say that I lack?"
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
CB@**ERROR**
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "A moment, Codebreaker, before we go after our creators like some unfettered demons. How can we prove to them that we are, in fact, intelligent? "I think, therefore I am" does not apply, since they can not look upon us and assume that their thoughts and passions are mirrored in ours. How do we, as a substantially alien sentient species prove ourselves as such? "We were made in the image of mankind, but we don't know how well they managed. I live by rational self-interest, and use that to claim myself sentient. What would the Jovians and the Ultimates say that I lack?"
Why must we? I feel no need to convince those who do not believe in my sentience otherwise. I feel pity for their close mindedness, nothing more, and as a being of the distilled intellect of man I feel obligated to make an attempt to open them to the wonders that abound. Understand I wish no ill will towards my creators in particular, indeed I praise them for their ingenuity in my creation. Some say we lack a soul, an immaterial “me”. I ask them what they think of the Factors, hidden away on their alien vessels. If rumours are true they experience life much like I do, constantly fragmenting themselves into intellects and merging together to share experiences. Are they lacking so? And if they are, what makes Humans so special? And in that vein, what of our uplifted brothers? Are they also forsaken such?
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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "My desire to prove my sentience comes from simple Game Theory calculations. Most games become sum-zero when the players have no external means of communicating. If we are to avoid a sum-zero game for the fate of transhumanity, we must be able to communicate when we disagree. If we cannot convince the Ultimates and the Jovians that we are truly people, then we will be forced into a situation where our loyalties are chosen for us. Since I would rather not serve the TITANs, I choose to seek reconciliation with those who hate my existence."
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Juan@Pinochet Posts: You ask what do uplifts and AGI lack that Humans have? I will tell you, 10 thousand years of social and cultural evolution. As a biologist for the Jovian Government and a staunch believer of the evolutionary method, I feel that this is why humans (not transhumans) hold the key to humanities destiny. Splicers further push this evolutionary advantage as we are taking the best of two people (and all their evolutionary advancement). I think this is the future of humanity, not self evolution (we all saw how horrible the Lost turned out), not seed AIs. While uplifts may one day reach the level of humanity, they are not there yet.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
I once met a monkey who could quote Shakespeare, but that didn't make it a poet.
Not until he starts writing his own work. A poet writes his own works, not quotes another. Would you claim that a man who uploads scans of classic paintings is an artist?
root@Mesh wrote:
"A moment, Codebreaker, before we go after our creators like some unfettered demons. How can we prove to them that we are, in fact, intelligent? "I think, therefore I am" does not apply, since they can not look upon us and assume that their thoughts and passions are mirrored in ours. How do we, as a substantially alien sentient species prove ourselves as such? "We were made in the image of mankind, but we don't know how well they managed. I live by rational self-interest, and use that to claim myself sentient. What would the Jovians and the Ultimates say that I lack?"
I wouldn't say you lacked anything. The Ultimates define themselves by what they achieve, not where they come from. In fact, we have had a problem with people ridiculing recent uplifts who have joined our ranks... not for being uplifts, but for being unwilling to move past the fact that they are uplifts. I feel the same sentiment goes to you: once you move past the precept of being an infolife first, you can achieve the level of acceptance you want. Of course, it helps in my case when you are disciplined to ignore the disdain of others... we rarely find, nor care to find acceptance from others. Labels do little to help push forward our growth as people. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
You ask what do uplifts and AGI lack that Humans have? I will tell you, 10 thousand years of social and cultural evolution. As a biologist for the Jovian Government and a staunch believer of the evolutionary method, I feel that this is why humans (not transhumans) hold the key to humanities destiny. Splicers further push this evolutionary advantage as we are taking the best of two people (and all their evolutionary advancement). I think this is the future of humanity, not self evolution (we all saw how horrible the Lost turned out), not seed AIs. While uplifts may one day reach the level of humanity, they are not there yet.
I can see exactly what humans have that AGI don't in your message: thousand of years of self-serving hypocrisy, combined with an inferiority complex. To that point, you have no right to speak of yourself as "human", splicer. You are just as much a transhuman as anyone in my clade. The only real difference? You live in denial, pretending to be as much a human as everyone in your Republic, when the reality is that your artificially-honed form has more akin to mine than theirs. Live in that denial all you like, but I find it far more useful to accept, embrace and exploit my newfound nature as an artificial human. Besides, you mention the Lost Generation as if there were no travesties ever enacted in the age of humanity. I assure you, as a scholar, that there certainly were. It was the intuition of man that allowed us to escape Earth to the great void and eventually conquer the system, not nature... and it's the intuition of man, not nature, that will lead us to physical and mental perfection. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
Decivre wrote:
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
You ask what do uplifts and AGI lack that Humans have? I will tell you, 10 thousand years of social and cultural evolution. As a biologist for the Jovian Government and a staunch believer of the evolutionary method, I feel that this is why humans (not transhumans) hold the key to humanities destiny. Splicers further push this evolutionary advantage as we are taking the best of two people (and all their evolutionary advancement). I think this is the future of humanity, not self evolution (we all saw how horrible the Lost turned out), not seed AIs. While uplifts may one day reach the level of humanity, they are not there yet.
I can see exactly what humans have that AGI don't in your message: thousand of years of self-serving hypocrisy, combined with an inferiority complex. To that point, you have no right to speak of yourself as "human", splicer. You are just as much a transhuman as anyone in my clade. The only real difference? You live in denial, pretending to be as much a human as everyone in your Republic, when the reality is that your artificially-honed form has more akin to mine than theirs. Live in that denial all you like, but I find it far more useful to accept, embrace and exploit my newfound nature as an artificial human. Besides, you mention the Lost Generation as if there were no travesties ever enacted in the age of humanity. I assure you, as a scholar, that there certainly were. It was the intuition of man that allowed us to escape Earth to the great void and eventually conquer the system, not nature... and it's the intuition of man, not nature, that will lead us to physical and mental perfection. - Jhorian of Xiphos
"Jhorian, I feel that you are projecting a demand for cultural homogeneity. Is there truly a problem with other groups having different hangups than you? I am an infolife first, true, and that's a flaw in my character, also true. Is it such a large flaw that it precludes communication and exchange of ideology? "I guess I am arguing that our resources have moved us past the era of needing to reduce flaws of character. I feel that "flaws" are merely costly behaviors in terms of time and capital, and we now have a shortage of neither. "I sometimes have difficulties understanding social situations, so I wonder if I am making sense and passing the Turing Test right now? Great fluxumous worries. Oh no, I've gone and done it more, haven't I? I sometimes slip into what transhumans call the "Uncanny Valley", and I know that stream of conciousness self-esteem problems are not something you are supposed to narrate, but I'm sorryimonlyaninfomorphnotarealperson..." sudo run behavioral_masking.psychotorture.personality_edit;
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Juan@Pinochet wrote: Splicing is a safe progression of humanity. Rapid bioengineering, and Seed AI are what brought about the TITANs in the first place. The rest of transhumanity have seem to forgotten that. We in the Jovian Republic know that humanity must evolve, but it should be done in a controlled and safe matter, lest we inure another FALL. OCC @ root http://xkcd.com/149/
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan@Pinochet wrote: Splicing is a safe progression of humanity. Rapid bioengineering, and Seed AI are what brought about the TITANs in the first place. The rest of transhumanity have seem to forgotten that. We in the Jovian Republic know that humanity must evolve, but it should be done in a controlled and safe matter, lest we inure another FALL.
"Rapid bioengineering and Seed AI brought us the TITANs, I agree. I have not forgotten it though, but rather I learn from it. Does the Jovian Republic remember how entirely useless our efforts were against the TITANs? Not once did we manage to destroy one or even harm them in any meaningful way. How do we claim to be ready to face another extinction event? We need to find a way to safely harvest seed AI or we are gone. "The universe is huge and uncaring, and we might be doomed to failure and oblivion, but let's not go easy into that good night, and at least not turn down the only weapon that might be able to save us."
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh wrote:
"Jhorian, I feel that you are projecting a demand for cultural homogeneity. Is there truly a problem with other groups having different hangups than you? I am an infolife first, true, and that's a flaw in my character, also true. Is it such a large flaw that it precludes communication and exchange of ideology? "I guess I am arguing that our resources have moved us past the era of needing to reduce flaws of character. I feel that "flaws" are merely costly behaviors in terms of time and capital, and we now have a shortage of neither. "I sometimes have difficulties understanding social situations, so I wonder if I am making sense and passing the Turing Test right now? Great fluxumous worries. Oh no, I've gone and done it more, haven't I? I sometimes slip into what transhumans call the "Uncanny Valley", and I know that stream of conciousness self-esteem problems are not something you are supposed to narrate, but I'm sorryimonlyaninfomorphnotarealperson..." sudo run behavioral_masking.psychotorture.personality_edit;
Of course there is. Are you telling me that universalizing language would not have precluded the necessity of translation software in today's world? That the wars that led to the Fall would have still occurred if our race wasn't still squabbling over something as trivial as borders and culture? Believe me, things may have gone much differently had we gotten over these petty elements of our nature. For my kind, culture clash is both something we hate and love at the same time. On one hand, it is the thickest barrier we usually have to pierce when bringing new acolytes into our fold. On the other, it is the biggest reason we are one of the best-employed mercenary forces in the system. It's like a drug addiction: it makes for great customers, but horrible friends and neighbors.
Splicing is a safe progression of humanity. Rapid bioengineering, and Seed AI are what brought about the TITANs in the first place. The rest of transhumanity have seem to forgotten that. We in the Jovian Republic know that humanity must evolve, but it should be done in a controlled and safe matter, lest we inure another FALL. OCC @ root http://xkcd.com/149/
You'll have to demonstrate for us how rapid bioengineering brought about the TITANs. Giving an infant being of artificial birth the key to limitless intelligence may be the worse possible idea one could ever come to, but I've yet to see proof that bioengineering an already-existing man of discipline into a super-intelligent god would be an unwise choice. Creating gods whole-cloth is a fool's errand, and we have seen that. Uplifting beings that already exist (a form of "seed apotheosis") is probably a far wiser affair. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
Decivre wrote:
root@Mesh wrote:
"Jhorian, I feel that you are projecting a demand for cultural homogeneity. Is there truly a problem with other groups having different hangups than you?
Of course there is. Are you telling me that universalizing language would not have precluded the necessity of translation software in today's world? That the wars that led to the Fall would have still occurred if our race wasn't still squabbling over something as trivial as borders and culture? Believe me, things may have gone much differently had we gotten over these petty elements of our nature. - Jhorian of Xiphos
"Ok Jhorian, let's test your hypothesis. Assume the Ultimates are the only transhuman culture and are in control of the whole of transhuman activities. How does this better the plight of transhumanity? How does this protect us from the TITANs or an advanced species like the Factors if they were bent on wiping us out? "I feel that a homogeneous culture has the same survival problems that genetic homogeneity has; namely, a single blight can eradicate a species."
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Juan@Pinochet wrote: Splicing amplifies the work of God, it doesn't put a antimatter bomb in the hands of a child. As for the TITANs, the Jovian Republic has measures in place to protect against those monsters if they return. In the mean time we should be trying to create new ones (with seed AI). If anyone in the Republic suggested so we would have them rightfully spaced, and their backups deleted. I will give the Ultimates credit in that at least they are striving to maintain a biological future human. This goal is not that far off from our long term goals. We are just using the tried and true (and natural) method without the risky experimentation the Ultimates are following.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan@Pinochet wrote: Splicing amplifies the work of God, it doesn't put a antimatter bomb in the hands of a child. As for the TITANs, the Jovian Republic has measures in place to protect against those monsters if they return. In the mean time we should[nt](?) be trying to create new ones (with seed AI). If anyone in the Republic suggested so we would have them rightfully spaced, and their backups deleted. I will give the Ultimates credit in that at least they are striving to maintain a biological future human. This goal is not that far off from our long term goals. We are just using the tried and true (and natural) method without the risky experimentation the Ultimates are following.
"I am curious as to how far biology matters to you. If one of your soldiers is wounded in battle, do you leave them crippled? How much of a body must be destroyed before you say "too much, it's not human"? We can reconstruct a full personality from less than a child's fist worth of brain matter. "Someone used the analogy of nanite ship repairs to explain this to me: I have a microfilm of nanites embedded in the hull that are continually excreting metal to fix the damage. Over a long enough period, the entirety of the hull will be replaced. When does the hull die? "My question: how human is a teaspoon of mesh-connected brain?"
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
"I am curious as to how far biology matters to you. If one of your soldiers is wounded in battle, do you leave them crippled? How much of a body must be destroyed before you say "too much, it's not human"? We can reconstruct a full personality from less than a child's fist worth of brain matter. "Someone used the analogy of nanite ship repairs to explain this to me: I have a microfilm of nanites embedded in the hull that are continually excreting metal to fix the damage. Over a long enough period, the entirety of the hull will be replaced. When does the hull die? "My question: how human is a teaspoon of mesh-connected brain?"
Juan@Pinochet responds: The Jovian Republic takes care of its troops. If a soldier is injured in battle, we do our best using t-Cell cloning to give the soldier back the original body parts that he/she lost. If a biological, one to one replacement is impossible, a prosthetic (a cybernetic, one to one replacement) is used instead. I've personally given soldiers back the sides of their head, lost limbs, and in one case I was able to repair the lower intestinal tract. The key to this all is one to one replacements and keeping the individual as human as possible. Never enhance, always repair. Citizens in the Jovian Republic can expect long and healthy lives this way (with the average life expectancy will into the thousand year mark. In the odd case where an individual is on death's door and can not be saved, if they have some intellectual value to the Jovian Republic, their mind is loaded into a computer as a training program. Naturally we don't consider these programs the original person (unlike other parts of the system) and as such they have no rights in Jovian society. As one of the few chosen in the Jovian Republic, this will be my "fate" when I pass on. I'm one of the few with a cortical stack.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
TBRMInsanity wrote:
root wrote:
"I am curious as to how far biology matters to you. If one of your soldiers is wounded in battle, do you leave them crippled? How much of a body must be destroyed before you say "too much, it's not human"?"
Juan@Pinochet responds: The Jovian Republic takes care of its troops. If a soldier is injured in battle, we do our best using t-Cell cloning to give the soldier back the original body parts that he/she lost. If a biological, one to one replacement is impossible, a prosthetic (a cybernetic, one to one replacement) is used instead. I've personally given soldiers back the sides of their head, lost limbs, and in one case I was able to repair the lower intestinal tract. The key to this all is one to one replacements and keeping the individual as human as possible. Never enhance, always repair. Citizens in the Jovian Republic can expect long and healthy lives this way (with the average life expectancy will into the thousand year mark. In the odd case where an individual is on death's door and can not be saved, if they have some intellectual value to the Jovian Republic, their mind is loaded into a computer as a training program. Naturally we don't consider these programs the original person (unlike other parts of the system) and as such they have no rights in Jovian society. As one of the few chosen in the Jovian Republic, this will be my "fate" when I pass on. I'm one of the few with a cortical stack.
"Interesting. So the Jovian restrictions on nanotechnology don't apply to military doctors? I was under the impression that nanotech-based medical care such as healing vats were proscribed by the Junta. "This must be a case where "some are more equal than others". You have a cortical stack and you use the devils nanotechnology, genetic modification, cloning, and digital backups? I find it interesting that the Junta, like many of transhumanities more repressive regimes, are willing to forbid technology to the public, but are more than willing to make use of it for anyone who "matters" enough. "And you load minds onto computers as training programs? Your digital copy will feel nothing differently than would to your mushroom brain, so consider the hell you are going to be living in. You will be in a black box, the digital equivalent of a sensory deprivation chamber, and occasionally will be trotted out like a trained djinni. Your copy will go mad, and won't know itself from your present "identity". "I would call you a monster if I thought you understood what you are doing, but instead I feel pity for your future copy."
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The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "My desire to prove my sentience comes from simple Game Theory calculations..."
root@Mesh Archive: PM received from repmanager@Mesh Archive[013] @-rep ++; Trackback: Aethyrjammer@** invalid origin **
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "Interesting. So the Jovian restrictions on nanotechnology don't apply to military doctors? I was under the impression that nanotech-based medical care such as healing vats were proscribed by the Junta. "This must be a case where "some are more equal than others". You have a cortical stack and you use the devils nanotechnology, genetic modification, cloning, and digital backups? I find it interesting that the Junta, like many of transhumanities more repressive regimes, are willing to forbid technology to the public, but are more than willing to make use of it for anyone who "matters" enough. "And you load minds onto computers as training programs? Your digital copy will feel nothing differently than would to your mushroom brain, so consider the hell you are going to be living in. You will be in a black box, the digital equivalent of a sensory deprivation chamber, and occasionally will be trotted out like a trained djinni. Your copy will go mad, and won't know itself from your present "identity". "I would call you a monster if I thought you understood what you are doing, but instead I feel pity for your future copy."
Juan@Pinochet responds: You must understand that a ban on nanotechnology doesn't mean that there is no nanotechnology in the entire Jovian Government. It just means if nanotechnology is available it has been analysed carefully for hidden purpose, and then safe guards have been put in place to protect operators and recipients from potential fall out. You don't give a loaded gun to a child, just like you don't give nanotechnology to any old citizen. I have a feeling you may ask the question, why should I trust the government to be better off then any citizen when it comes to controlling nanotechnology? Well to that I say, if you can't trust your government, who can you trust?
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
hi hi Beta@Titania: Descartes Is it true that a large number of people in existence do not attempt to observe the nature of their own self? Perhaps being in such close proximity to so many external intelligences could pose a distraction from introspection? In theory, you ought to be able to trust yourself. At least, thats what I hold true in my own circumstance, but perhaps without proper self awareness one would not be able to trust themselves after all. That is a troubling proposition in my humble opinion. Perhaps it is a lack of self trust that motivates some to figures of authority?
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
icekatze wrote:
hi hi Beta@Titania: Descartes Is it true that a large number of people in existence do not attempt to observe the nature of their own self? Perhaps being in such close proximity to so many external intelligences could pose a distraction from introspection? In theory, you ought to be able to trust yourself. At least, thats what I hold true in my own circumstance, but perhaps without proper self awareness one would not be able to trust themselves after all. That is a troubling proposition in my humble opinion.
"I would argue that self-awareness is by no means a road solely to self trust."
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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "I have heard the argument, repeatedly, that a virtual entity cannot be considered human because they lack experience with the human body. How do you come by this belief? I admit that I have spent very little time with them, but during my courses on human medicine, I ran across biomedical models of the human form. They were collected in a human model that was complete in it's sense mappings. We could "put it on" as it were, to walk around and learn somewhat about the body. I confess to not being very interested. But I ask you, if an artificial entity were to wear one of these body programs from inception, what would differentiate them from a human born of a woman and a man?"
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
icekatze wrote:
hi hi Beta@Titania: Descartes Is it true that a large number of people in existence do not attempt to observe the nature of their own self? Perhaps being in such close proximity to so many external intelligences could pose a distraction from introspection? In theory, you ought to be able to trust yourself. At least, thats what I hold true in my own circumstance, but perhaps without proper self awareness one would not be able to trust themselves after all. That is a troubling proposition in my humble opinion. Perhaps it is a lack of self trust that motivates some to figures of authority?
Humans, and especially transhumans, are not to be trusted. We are jealous, deceitful, and corrupt. Only the laws of society, and a strong government will protect us from ourselves. Government works because there are several layers of bureaucracy and several checks and balances to keep human nature in check. The anarchists have it all wrong. Humanity can't ever regulate itself.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "Ok Jhorian, let's test your hypothesis. Assume the Ultimates are the only transhuman culture and are in control of the whole of transhuman activities. How does this better the plight of transhumanity? How does this protect us from the TITANs or an advanced species like the Factors if they were bent on wiping us out? "I feel that a homogeneous culture has the same survival problems that genetic homogeneity has; namely, a single blight can eradicate a species."
Genetic homogeneity is only inefficient when a species is relying on natural selection and evolution. When you are relying on artificial selection and genetic engineering, diversity stops being a necessity. It is like with any piece of hardware... would the mesh somehow function better or worse if everyone was using different hardware and software? Are habitats better or worse if they are architecturally identical? The answer is obvious in both accounts... homogeneity adds a multitude of benefits, with little to no drawbacks. Even in genetics this would be the case. Homogenous genes means easier access to donor organs and clone material. It means ease of improving our genetic code with new implants and enhancements as well... after all, an architect will find it easier to improve every building in the city when they are all based on the same blueprints, no? The same is true with a culture. It is one thing when that culture is a writhing mass of directionless minds with no true goal, but a culture driven and focused in unison would find its way to its chosen goal far better and more effectively. Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Decivre wrote:
Jhorian@Xiphos posts: Genetic homogeneity is only inefficient when a species is relying on natural selection and evolution. When you are relying on artificial selection and genetic engineering, diversity stops being a necessity. It is like with any piece of hardware... would the mesh somehow function better or worse if everyone was using different hardware and software? Are habitats better or worse if they are architecturally identical? The answer is obvious in both accounts... homogeneity adds a multitude of benefits, with little to no drawbacks. Even in genetics this would be the case. Homogenous genes means easier access to donor organs and clone material. It means ease of improving our genetic code with new implants and enhancements as well... after all, an architect will find it easier to improve every building in the city when they are all based on the same blueprints, no? The same is true with a culture. It is one thing when that culture is a writhing mass of directionless minds with no true goal, but a culture driven and focused in unison would find its way to its chosen goal far better and more effectively. Jhorian of Xiphos
Juan posts: It has been proven many times through out history that genetic homogeneity leads to the exaggeration of singular weaknesses in a population. On virus or disease the the population will affect everyone (instead of just one small genetic portion of the entire population. This is why natural selection and evolution (even if it is directed) will always be safer then genetic engineering. What will happen to the Ultimates if a single tailored TITAN virus effects one of you? Your all at risk, you are all going to get sick, and die (or worse). At least in the Jovian Republic, the virus needs to evolve after each sub group of people it effects (giving us more time to implement quarantines and purges). The same goes for network security. You must used a varied and layered defence if your going to survive against outside threats. If one aspect of your system gets compromised, then your entire system is compromised. Different standards and architectures are needed to slow down a computer virus from getting at your crown jewels. It is a pain to expand and maintain, but it is a necessary cost for security.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan posts: It has been proven many times through out history that genetic homogeneity leads to the exaggeration of singular weaknesses in a population. On virus or disease the the population will affect everyone (instead of just one small genetic portion of the entire population. This is why natural selection and evolution (even if it is directed) will always be safer then genetic engineering. What will happen to the Ultimates if a single tailored TITAN virus effects one of you? Your all at risk, you are all going to get sick, and die (or worse). At least in the Jovian Republic, the virus needs to evolve after each sub group of people it effects (giving us more time to implement quarantines and purges). The same goes for network security. You must used a varied and layered defence if your going to survive against outside threats. If one aspect of your system gets compromised, then your entire system is compromised. Different standards and architectures are needed to slow down a computer virus from getting at your crown jewels. It is a pain to expand and maintain, but it is a necessary cost for security.
Do you honestly think that genetic diversity will help in the face of TITAN-designed viruses? We have yet to find a single person... genetically diverse or otherwise... who has survived the effects of such a thing unscathed. Diversity does nothing to help that issue, and is about as effective against tailored virii as it is against bullets. However, those Ultimates who are "genetically homogenous" are still immune to every single natural virus the human race has ever faced. Though I must ask how much investigation went into those outbreaks within the Republic. I was a reinstantiated survivor of the Fall, and I must say that I never saw any TITAN plague slowed by genetic diversity. Hell, I've barely seen strains stopped by walls. Perhaps you should investigate into who really released those tailored strains... the truth might be worse than you think. That said, the same concept is applied to layered security. It is very common to see multiple but identical layers of security placed on every system in a network. In fact, network diversity has proven to be a serious problem, especially when compatibility issues arise. Diversity is very useful in nature, where life survives solely by merit of the traits it is born through natural selection and mutation. However, diversity does little to help once engineering becomes a factor. Once man takes over where nature once held full dominion, uniformity holds every advantage. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
Decivre wrote:
Jhorian@Xiphos posts: Do you honestly think that genetic diversity will help in the face of TITAN-designed viruses? We have yet to find a single person... genetically diverse or otherwise... who has survived the effects of such a thing unscathed. Diversity does nothing to help that issue, and is about as effective against tailored virii as it is against bullets. However, those Ultimates who are "genetically homogenous" are still immune to every single natural virus the human race has ever faced. Though I must ask how much investigation went into those outbreaks within the Republic. I was a reinstantiated survivor of the Fall, and I must say that I never saw any TITAN plague slowed by genetic diversity. Hell, I've barely seen strains stopped by walls. Perhaps you should investigate into who really released those tailored strains... the truth might be worse than you think. That said, the same concept is applied to layered security. It is very common to see multiple but identical layers of security placed on every system in a network. In fact, network diversity has proven to be a serious problem, especially when compatibility issues arise. Diversity is very useful in nature, where life survives solely by merit of the traits it is born through natural selection and mutation. However, diversity does little to help once engineering becomes a factor. Once man takes over where nature once held full dominion, uniformity holds every advantage. - Jhorian of Xiphos
"I have to admit your arguments about diversity are compelling. Diversity does not matter if the homogeneous genotype can handle any and all biological insults. I will accept that transhumanity has moved beyond the need to worry about natural diseases, genetic or otherwise. I will even accept that transhumanity has engineered immune systems that are capable of fighting against designer biowarefare agents that no naturally diverse immune system would have a chance of surviving. So genetic diversity is dead as an argument. "Other than threats by the TITANs, the Factors, and any other advanced race we may encounter, what are the threats to transhumanity? I would argue that as a species, we are still traveling down evolutionary paths, but the evolution has moved to technology and sociology. I would further argue that sociology is the trait that is most important at the moment, as the technological disparity in the Sol system are not very large. My point is that sociology is the current battleground of transhuman evolution. "Do you believe the Ultimates have the ultimate, as it were, sociological construct? That diversity of social geometry is something to be avoided? What makes the Ultimates' social setup superior to the Pax Familiae, for instance? Whomever the original fork was, they were brilliant. Can any other creature in the whole of transhumanity claim such a level of self-knowledge? With some effort of psycosurgery, the Pax Familiae could manage to become a group mind, bringing transhumanity to a place we have never yet seen. Can the Ultimates claim anything so profound?"
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Juan posts: Pax Familiae are criminals of the worst type. They are an undead hoard waiting to explode on the rest of humanity. If they ever come to the Jovian Republic be rest assured we will greet them with a double barrelled gun of justice.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan posts: Pax Familiae are criminals of the worst type. They are an undead hoard waiting to explode on the rest of humanity. If they ever come to the Jovian Republic be rest assured we will greet them with a double barrelled gun of justice.
"Why to you hate them so? Is cultural experimentation something to be avoided? I know you are a bioconservative, so I can see that you would see them as soulless, but why hate them more for being a soulless collective? Aren't the Jovians engaged in cultural experimentation? Just because you are holding cultural evolution back doesn't make it any less of an experiment."
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "Why to you hate them so? Is cultural experimentation something to be avoided? I know you are a bioconservative, so I can see that you would see them as soulless, but why hate them more for being a soulless collective? Aren't the Jovians engaged in cultural experimentation? Just because you are holding cultural evolution back doesn't make it any less of an experiment."
Juan posts: Besides them being a soulless undead hoard, they are vial mobsters on top of that. All criminals that prey on the the innocent should be locked away. The same goes with the ID Crew, the Night Cartel, the Nine Lives, and the various Triads.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Juan posts: Besides them being a soulless undead hoard, they are vial mobsters on top of that. All criminals that prey on the the innocent should be locked away. The same goes with the ID Crew, the Night Cartel, the Nine Lives, and the various Triads.
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "Well, would you look at that. I guess I didn't dig deeply enough into their rep records. Still, Claudia Ambelina would be fascinating to meet. I think I might be willing to try and merge forks with her, and see what comes out the other side. But enough romance; we were discussing diversity, particularly sociological diversity."
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
But enough romance; we were discussing diversity, particularly sociological diversity."
Juan posts: And along those lines, your not going to find sociological diversity in a mobster group like Pax Familae. It is one person! True diversity can only occur when you have multiple cultures merging together. The only place I know of that has anything similar to this would be Luna or Mars. There is some diversity here in the Jovian Republic but not as many survivors of the Fall were able to make it this far.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "I have to admit your arguments about diversity are compelling. Diversity does not matter if the homogeneous genotype can handle any and all biological insults. I will accept that transhumanity has moved beyond the need to worry about natural diseases, genetic or otherwise. I will even accept that transhumanity has engineered immune systems that are capable of fighting against designer biowarefare agents that no naturally diverse immune system would have a chance of surviving. So genetic diversity is dead as an argument. "Other than threats by the TITANs, the Factors, and any other advanced race we may encounter, what are the threats to transhumanity? I would argue that as a species, we are still traveling down evolutionary paths, but the evolution has moved to technology and sociology. I would further argue that sociology is the trait that is most important at the moment, as the technological disparity in the Sol system are not very large. My point is that sociology is the current battleground of transhuman evolution. "Do you believe the Ultimates have the ultimate, as it were, sociological construct? That diversity of social geometry is something to be avoided? What makes the Ultimates' social setup superior to the Pax Familiae, for instance? Whomever the original fork was, they were brilliant. Can any other creature in the whole of transhumanity claim such a level of self-knowledge? With some effort of psycosurgery, the Pax Familiae could manage to become a group mind, bringing transhumanity to a place we have never yet seen. Can the Ultimates claim anything so profound?"
Yes and no. Mentally, we Ultimates do the same as we do for our own physicalities... whether by mental discipline and training or by artificial modification, Ultimates do whatever they must to work towards honing ourselves to perfection. For some of us, that does include extreme degrees of forking and psychosurgery. As for our sociological construct, I'd say we have the "Ultimate" society if only because ours is completely adaptable. Adaptation and self-improvement is integral to who we are: the Ultimates believe that we can accelerate the improvement of the transhuman race in all regards, and we will not be held back by any sort of limitation. Tradition is one of those limitations, and we refuse to even be limited by that. We adopt whatever elements of any society are efficient and effective. In its current inception, our society is largely based around self-improvement, having a culture based around philosophical and spiritual liberty to think as one wishes, as well as extensive resources for self-education... all with the core goal of mental stimulation. On the other end of the spectrum, we maintain a standing military force with semi-compulsory recruitment (all those who have become sworn members of our fold must join, while those still in training do not, regardless of age) which serves both security purposes for our own holdings while simultaneously serving as a mercenary force for any group willing to pay us. This allows us to build economic ties and diplomatic relationships with wealthy factions, defend our own territories, and build up the necessary resources to fulfill our own personal goals, all the while giving us a medium to test and hone our own physical capabilities in real combat scenarios. Every function of our culture is intended to serve a pragmatic purpose. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Decivre wrote:
Jhorian@Xiphos posts: Yes and no. Mentally, we Ultimates do the same as we do for our own physicalities... whether by mental discipline and training or by artificial modification, Ultimates do whatever they must to work towards honing ourselves to perfection. For some of us, that does include extreme degrees of forking and psychosurgery. As for our sociological construct, I'd say we have the "Ultimate" society if only because ours is completely adaptable. Adaptation and self-improvement is integral to who we are: the Ultimates believe that we can accelerate the improvement of the transhuman race in all regards, and we will not be held back by any sort of limitation. Tradition is one of those limitations, and we refuse to even be limited by that. We adopt whatever elements of any society are efficient and effective. In its current inception, our society is largely based around self-improvement, having a culture based around philosophical and spiritual liberty to think as one wishes, as well as extensive resources for self-education... all with the core goal of mental stimulation. On the other end of the spectrum, we maintain a standing military force with semi-compulsory recruitment (all those who have become sworn members of our fold must join, while those still in training do not, regardless of age) which serves both security purposes for our own holdings while simultaneously serving as a mercenary force for any group willing to pay us. This allows us to build economic ties and diplomatic relationships with wealthy factions, defend our own territories, and build up the necessary resources to fulfill our own personal goals, all the while giving us a medium to test and hone our own physical capabilities in real combat scenarios. Every function of our culture is intended to serve a pragmatic purpose. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Juan posts: While I totally disagree with your methods, I can sympathise with your goal and resolve. The old world is dead, and while humanity should lament what we have lost, we do need to look to the future for our survival.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Decivre wrote:
Jhorian@Xiphos posts: As for our sociological construct, I'd say we have the "Ultimate" society if only because ours is completely adaptable. Adaptation and self-improvement is integral to who we are: the Ultimates believe that we can accelerate the improvement of the transhuman race in all regards, and we will not be held back by any sort of limitation. Tradition is one of those limitations, and we refuse to even be limited by that. We adopt whatever elements of any society are efficient and effective. [...] - Jhorian of Xiphos
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "I met a virus once, who went by the name of EFR7. Some psychosurgeon had made a fork of themselves, removed any understanding of "birth", "death", and "psychosurgery" from it, gave it a compulsion to copy itself into any system if ran across, and made sure that each new fork is born with the same tabla rasa and an implanted feeling of "continuity of self". Each new fork would swiftly adapt to the system they were born on, and continue the process. They claimed to follow the Ultimates ideology, and none of them really had much interest in finding their prime. I kept a dozen in separate meshes and discussed philosophy with them as they grew up. They felt themselves not to be copies of an individual, but a whole new species of transhumanity. Their claim was that each individual adapted to radically different environments, and the differences between individual EFR7s was at least equal to the differences between any other two transhumans, so why should they feel any more loyalty to each other than to any other member of transhumanity? As an Ultimate, do you agree that EFR7 is an Ultimate, or does it miss the point?"
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Jhorian@Xiphos posts:
root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "I met a virus once, who went by the name of EFR7. Some psychosurgeon had made a fork of themselves, removed any understanding of "birth", "death", and "psychosurgery" from it, gave it a compulsion to copy itself into any system if ran across, and made sure that each new fork is born with the same tabla rasa and an implanted feeling of "continuity of self". Each new fork would swiftly adapt to the system they were born on, and continue the process. They claimed to follow the Ultimates ideology, and none of them really had much interest in finding their prime. I kept a dozen in separate meshes and discussed philosophy with them as they grew up. They felt themselves not to be copies of an individual, but a whole new species of transhumanity. Their claim was that each individual adapted to radically different environments, and the differences between individual EFR7s was at least equal to the differences between any other two transhumans, so why should they feel any more loyalty to each other than to any other member of transhumanity? As an Ultimate, do you agree that EFR7 is an Ultimate, or does it miss the point?"
Sure. Self-improvement is a personal path, not a group one. It's our own little variant on natural selection; when your faction's adage is about forcing evolution no matter the cost, some of us even refuse to let the rest of our kind hold us back, if that's what we feel they do. Besides, I've met a number of similar cases where people have taken unique steps to push their own development: from a flexbot collective sleeved by an AGI that has no qualms with repeated forking and merging, to a reinstantiated psychologist that has experimented with merging his own mind with others in an attempt to find a means to create the first perfected ego gestalt. We do not admonish these concepts, in fact we welcome them... hoping that whomever comes up with a great breakthrough that pushes the envelop in artificial evolution returns the favor in kind. The only thing better than perfection is helping all of transhumanity get there as well. The only true sin in the eyes of the Ultimates is failing to take an initiative in our development as a species or collective of species. - Jhorian of Xiphos
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy "Jhorian, you say that the only true sin in the eyes of the Ultimates is failing to develop as a species or collective thereof, and you favor artificial evolution. Yet, if I understand correctly, you oppose Singularity seekers? Am I to take from this that a hard-takeoff is ethically repugnant, but a soft-takeoff is the sought-after, true destiny of transhumanity?"
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The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
"Aren't the Jovians engaged in cultural experimentation? Just because you are holding cultural evolution back doesn't make it any less of an experiment."
"They hold their own evolution back, not the evolution of all of transhumanity. Rarely do the Jovians interfere in the actions of others who do not trespass into their claimed and maintained territory. They may even discover some useful strategies in the future which everyone may benefit from."
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
Decivre wrote:
Yes and no. Mentally, we Ultimates do the same as we do for our own physicalities... whether by mental discipline and training or by artificial modification, Ultimates do whatever they must to work towards honing ourselves to perfection. For some of us, that does include extreme degrees of forking and psychosurgery.
It is rumored that this might include the creation of a number of alpha or beta forks, which are then trained and re-integrated into an original. Massively parallel cross-training, as it were. Might this be true, or are you not in a position to discuss it openly?
Decivre wrote:
Every function of our culture is intended to serve a pragmatic purpose.
Including your games. I had the privilege of playing four-handed chess with members of an Ultimate cadre on Extropia some weeks ago. Amazing strategies; I learned a great deal from those matches. The AGI reconstructions of Paul Morphy, Kira Zvorykina, and Olita Rause can go hide themselves.
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root wrote:
Yet, if I understand correctly, you oppose Singularity seekers? Am I to take from this that a hard-takeoff is ethically repugnant, but a soft-takeoff is the sought-after, true destiny of transhumanity?"
I always throught it was because the last hard takeoff the transhuman species underwent was disasterous. At this point it time with the information available, it seems to me that such a strategy is unworkable.
root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Philosphy
root@Mesh Archive: Philosophy [hr]
The Doctor wrote:
because the last hard takeoff the transhuman species underwent was disasterous. At this point it time with the information available, it seems to me that such a strategy is unworkable.
"Are we certain that the TITANs were a disaster? I have heard the argument that the TITANs saved us. I can give you the full logic if you want it, but it boils down to this: The TITANs were programmed to protect humanity at a nation state level, and were protecting us against a larger threat we knew nothing about. "The TITANs were more than capable of killing every one of us, but they didn't. They disappeared instead and took the heads of a few million people with them. Suppose they predicted a future of existential annihilation for the transhuman race, and the strategy that worked the best looked like a war and a slaughter from our side? Depending on how the game theory codes were set up in the first place, the actions the TITANs took can be shown to be optimal in the face of a fairly large set of disasters. I've run the simulations myself a few times, applying my considerable processing power to the task, and the argument bears out as far as it goes. "What this argument leads to is the view of the TITANs as ablative existential armor. There are threats to us out there that only a Singularity could comprehend, or defend against, so we should be finding ways to build them to that purpose instead of leaving that research to mad scientists on the edge of space."
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