Mesh Archive: Economics

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root root's picture
Mesh Archive: Economics

THIS ARCHIVE IS NO LONGER CLASSIFIED AS AN EXSURGENT INFECTION RISK



root@Mesh Archive: Economics

"Material capitalism is the best possible form of economy. Also, creative labor is the basis of value and worth. Ideas are a product of creative environment, and therefore the thinker has no more right of ownership over their ideas than the group that furnished the creative environment the idea was conceived in. Now let's you and him fight."

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root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Economics

root@Mesh Archive: Economics


"Alright, no one is willing to bite on that first piece of inflammatory, so let's see what we get from a more reasoned argument. This one has to do with being in a banyan. For those of you who haven't heard of it, a banyan is a kaleidoscope of me, as many forks as I have the processing power to maintain. If you've scanned the XP Melt, Vijja seems to be one, as they refer to themselves as a plural. They also seem to be neuter, as an interesting side note, as well as cannibalistic and murderous, so let's not make too much of it as an analogy.

"The first group to aggressively pursue being a banyan will have an advantage over everyone else who attempts to follow. Assume that a banyan, we'll use the Entelechy Network for this example, when given no real limit to processing space, will expand to fill its available resources. It grows at a pace reasonably approximated by the Fibonacci sequence until some external limitation is applied. If this being is involved in an economy, they gain a network advantage with every additional version of themselves added to the population. This advantage follows networking systems theory and every additional new connection is worth more than the one that came before it. This can become very powerful, very quickly.

"Assuming the Entelechy Network is intelligent enough to recognize that it would be burned and exterminated if it grew too fast, it will only choose to fill a certain threshold of any given niche. Even though it did not hold a monopoly in any of the locations it was present in, the ability to affect action in each niche in concert allows it a great deal of protection and power. The only way convincing way to beat it is to fill up that niche first, so you can ensure they can't get a foothold.

"This is the economy in question. What's wrong with it? This is assuming that I, root, am the Entelechy Network, and that you are on the other end of it."

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Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Economics

I must admit you lost me with your second post. But, regarding the first one, material capitalism is already outlived its live. Just check the economical history from the XXth century on: economic crisis in 1929, then again around 1973 due to the oil, minor crisis in 1990s, and then again in 2007... etc. There's a long list from there on, you can mesh-search it. Problem is that it is an obvious and antiquated show of power: one is richer than the other, thus has power over him. Hey, we're working here to get that done with!

Anarcho-capitalism was a second try. Extropia is a show that it can work, but in the end lacks any of the solutions needed for capitalism, still is based around some having more than others. Communism in its many forms tried to achieve that, all having the same, but those that handled the state machinery ended up having more.

Problem is that economy itself is a form of power, revolving around the chance of denying other's the access to some ressources. And that is something we have to eliminate!

Not sure if I did it right, I saw no instructions about this kinds of posts. :)

The mind is information... hack it!
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Guru Guru's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Economics

root wrote:
root@Mesh Archive: Economics

"Alright, no one is willing to bite on that first piece of inflammatory, so let's see what we get from a more reasoned argument. This one has to do with being in a banyan. For those of you who haven't heard of it, a banyan is a kaleidoscope of me, as many forks as I have the processing power to maintain. If you've scanned the XP Melt, Vijja seems to be one, as they refer to themselves as a plural. They also seem to be neuter, as an interesting side note, as well as cannibalistic and murderous, so let's not make too much of it as an analogy.

"The first group to aggressively pursue being a banyan will have an advantage over everyone else who attempts to follow. Assume that a banyan, we'll use the Entelechy Network for this example, when given no real limit to processing space, will expand to fill its available resources. It grows at a pace reasonably approximated by the Fibonacci sequence until some external limitation is applied. If this being is involved in an economy, they gain a network advantage with every additional version of themselves added to the population. This advantage follows networking systems theory and every additional new connection is worth more than the one that came before it. This can become very powerful, very quickly.

"Assuming the Entelechy Network is intelligent enough to recognize that it would be burned and exterminated if it grew too fast, it will only choose to fill a certain threshold of any given niche. Even though it did not hold a monopoly in any of the locations it was present in, the ability to affect action in each niche in concert allows it a great deal of protection and power. The only way convincing way to beat it is to fill up that niche first, so you can ensure they can't get a foothold.

"This is the economy in question. What's wrong with it? This is assuming that I, root, am the Entelechy Network, and that you are on the other end of it."

Same's true of any cooperative group that works well together. You don't need to go with a Banyan to accomplish this: any large economic group is already doing it. You're assuming that it'll be a stronger cooperative network because they're all forks, which is reasonable, but I think your assumption that that economic cooperation will lead them to be a more powerful economic force than an org composed of a similarly sized population of non-fork members is faulty. First, those orgs already exist and, as you've said, whoever has a big tree first can block the sunlight of growing orgs and gain a significant advantage. The corps have already done that, though there's more room for such a banyan to grow in the outer system.

I think the diversity you get from a multiple-member system is likely to outweigh the advantages of increased cooperation you'd get from repeated forking, though, particularly in the economic sector. New ideas and adaptability are more vital for success as cohesion.

root root's picture
Re: Mesh Archive: Economics

root@Mesh Archive: Economics


Guru wrote:

Same's true of any cooperative group that works well together. You don't need to go with a Banyan to accomplish this: any large economic group is already doing it. You're assuming that it'll be a stronger cooperative network because they're all forks, which is reasonable, but I think your assumption that that economic cooperation will lead them to be a more powerful economic force than an org composed of a similarly sized population of non-fork members is faulty. First, those orgs already exist and, as you've said, whoever has a big tree first can block the sunlight of growing orgs and gain a significant advantage. The corps have already done that, though there's more room for such a banyan to grow in the outer system.

I think the diversity you get from a multiple-member system is likely to outweigh the advantages of increased cooperation you'd get from repeated forking, though, particularly in the economic sector. New ideas and adaptability are more vital for success as cohesion.

"You make good points, hypercorporations do already try and take over all available space, and diversity is far superior do monoculture when coming up with innovations. Here's why a banyan doesn't have the limitations you think they do: First, one of the limiting factors for a hypercorp, one might even say the limiting factor for a hypercorp, is communication. Hypercorps have a hierarchy to concentrate decision making, and to allow swift dissemination of managerial decisions to the leaves of the corporate tree (to use a computer science analogy). Hypercorps can have all the diversity they want, they still have bottlenecks to communicating new and powerful ideas. Banyans do not suffer from this problem at all.

"Since most people are not familiar with how banyans work as an economic entity, let me give a quick story about one. The Entelechy Network (en) is a criminal banyan based off the Carnival of the Goat, to which I am the Muse. e1 was a selfish brute who had access to a menton morph and far too much time on his hands. He was also insanely grumpy about every little thing in his environment, and had to have it all just so. The story would end here if he hadn't also been a hard-working tinkerer, but as it was he was good at modifying his environment to suit his needs. It didn't take him very long to realize that if he forked himself into another menton, e2, he could make much more rapid progress on customizing his surroundings, and did so. He found that he got along well enough with himself, as he enjoyed his own thoughts, and now finally had someone to play chess with. They forked a few dozen more times, e3 through e37, got quite a bit more built, and began focusing down different research paths. After some time, I, as their Muse, began to notice that they were drifting apart in personality. It wasn't much, but my different forks were finding a statistically significant difference in a few personality indicators, and we could easily extrapolate this drift as the population approached en.

"We considered panicking, but there didn't seem much point. We just started keeping track of the drift and making sure that updates were rolled out with respect to individual differences. It actually started to come in very useful, and we were able to make much better estimates of the thinking and desires of en. At the same time, we began to see other emergent effects of the banyan. There were enough customizations being applied for the sake of the banyan that an increasingly large number of these inventions were also very useful to entities outside of the banyan. en discovered that it is legally very difficult to prosecute any member of a banyan without there being some doubt as to the identity of that member (was it e77 or was it e0x771993AA?). Their compressed selfishness inverted itself and began to produce members that are extroverted and interested in trade and exchange with the outside world. They formed an active community of risk takers, entirely unconcerned with the morality of any of their self-experiments, as they were of one mind as to the efficacy of this use. While self-experimentation is usually not generalizable, with a banyan, it is the only generalizable experimentation.

"The point of my story is that while you are correct that the diversity of multi-member groups increases the overall creativity and output with respect to the general population, a banyan's creativity and output with respect to themselves is orders of magnitude beyond what the first group is capable of."

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root root's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Economics

root@PUB_ON_NO_SIGx5@Mesh Archive: Economics


CONSORTIUM PATENT
Patent Number: 0xFFF8A4
Date of Patent: [REDACTED]

METHOD AND SYSTEM FOR SMALL GROUP HIVEMIND CONNECTIVITY
Inventors: Simon Kerimov', Simon e7, Simon e32, Simon+ e73, Simon* e0
Asignee: Cognite, Thought, VN
Appl No: [REDACTED]
Filed: [REDACTED]
Int Cl: [REDACTED]
Consortium Cl: [REDACTED]
Field of Search: 235/386, 375; 365/409

References Cited
CONSORTIUM PATENT DOCUMENTS
[REDACTED]

COGNITE INTERNAL PATENT DOCUMENTS
[REDACTED]

Primary Examiner-[REDACTED]
[REDACTED]-[REDACTED]

ABSTRACT
The Hivemind state is one where the participants are distributed amongst the Feed rather than existing in only one processing node. Preliminary studies with subjects recruited from the Harmonics show that digital minds hosted on the same system are capable of achieving sustainable Hivemind up to x23. More recent studies have not yet managed to break the x1/17 barrier for subjects sleeved in meat computers and distributed over a wide 3Space. The Judge arbitrates communication between subjects at speeds as low as x1/33, ensuring high-bandwidth transmission of primary signal spreading activation. An open source voting protocol [REDACTED] [REDACTED] was retasked to [REDACTED] amongst the voting members. With the extra efficiencies over base model nodes, the Hivemind pole is crossed with higher fidelity than in previous experiments, allowing a gestalt to form. The pooled creativity and raw processing power of this gestalt, when stable, is above baseline by [REDACTED]. This will amount to a savings of [REDACTED] per [REDACTED], by implementing a parlimentary cyberdemocracy of mind.

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Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: [EXSURGENT QUARANTINE] Mesh Archive: Economics

-BURST TRANSMISSION SOURCE: UNKNOWN-

You speak of the hivemind and yet you know nothing of it. Your little mesh cybermob is nothing compared to the true power of the hive. Disparate contentious entities brought to heel under the aegis of my queen. Her thoughts are my own, she whispers to us and we obey. I have seen my broodmates charge into the fire of fully automatic remote firing turrets merely because she wished it so. That is the power of the hive, not your "raw processing power" you speak of.
But you will learn soon enough.

-END TRANSMISSION-

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"Do not ask who I am and do not ask me to remain the same" - Michel Foucault