The Martial Community

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Mifune Mifune's picture
The Martial Community
From what little I've read so far, the game system is solid and I doubt the Unarmed Combat isn't likewise solid. However, there is no details on the martial communities of transhuman society. There are no details on martial arts whatsoever, especially transhuman martial arts. Sure, there doesn't need to be that kind of information in the core rule book, but at some point you'll need to detail the martial world (and perhaps detail Freerunning/Parkour in the same book). Maybe even add a martial faction or two.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Martian communities not good enough for ya? ;)
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Nope! I want a Martian Martial Community.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
Iv Iv's picture
Re: The Martial Community
At first I read "marital". How about a marital martian martial community ? Jokes aside, I am not sure that martial art really fits in this universe very well. Martial arts is the "advanced manual" for the morph you get. It will be very different depending on the different morphs. I could see competitions where people get to use the exact same models, but I'm not sure how it should be called... In the meantime, people who are serious about becoming a kickass killing machine,(I mean those that today make their fingers harder by hitting random hard things until they reach blood) they would probably undergo at least surgery to get better, stronger, faster, and double-jointed on unexpected articulations. What is a safe joint lock in a universe where the skeleton structure of people can be so variable (if existent) ?
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Wait. You say that Martial Arts doesn't belong in the universe, then you give very excellent examples of how martial arts would change in a transhuman society. Anyways, I'm not talking about simply fighting. Remember, part of martial arts is philosophy.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: The Martial Community
I've been museing on this for a wile. The setting seriously changes hand to hand combat. Here's what I've been thinking about. Freefall JiuJitsu Sword fighting in vacuum Capoera in mars or lighter gravity. Melee in light gravity strikes me as being a frusterating pain in the ass. I expect strikeing to be much less effective; you can't bring your power from the ground, and strikes that rely on centripital force are subject to Newton's 3'rd so they're less effecive too. How do you duck/dodge in freefall? By my calculations, at lunar gravity it takes a body about 1 second to fall one meter so you can forget about trying to suplex your opponent. Some JiuJitsu techniques, like an arm bar would still work but the tactics of manuvering an opponent into that situation are all fucked up. Attaining some type of mount position then striking might work out ok because you could then strike against the center of mass of both fighters. Morphs with the "prehensile feet" mod would be supreme in gravities of Lunar G or less. There should be an advantage in the rules mechanics for low G fighting when a morph has the prehensile feet mod. [edit]I'm 5'10" and I can just touch the rim with a standing jump. If I understand correctly, on Luna I should be able to Jump about 10 meters. Meaning it would take me about 3 combat turns to get back to the ground. Something to think about.[/edit] I belive it was Pierse Anthony who wrote about fencing being a popular melee method of fighting in vacuum. But the vacuum suits he was writing about were not self healing, so a fencing foil wouldn't be as effective at ruining a vacsuit. A slashing weapon would work better, but since vaccume and microgravity often coinside you'd want the lightest weapon available or each strike you make disrupts your own position. With a foil you could thrust from your own center of mass essentially putting your full mass into the strike. With a slashing weapon the force of the attack is at some tangent to your own mass causeing you geater positional displacement. There should be mechanics for weapons like foils. Something with a higher AP but a lower DV. The one thing I did like about DnD was the Weapon Speed mechanic. I think it would be cool to represent that some weapons are slower to deploy and follow up than others. In all it's a really intrigueing subject and I would really enjoy having some really crunchy tactical rules for melee combat in the varied environments of EP [b]Mifune[/b] (and anyone else here) PM me if you'd like to work on a CC martial community supliment together.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Iv Iv's picture
Re: The Martial Community
I think that combat rules including martial arts would be a waste of time, as many implants or special case would render most of the techniques moot. Most of what you propose supposes that both combattant have a somehow humanoid morph. On another thread, people are discussing the possibility to have a nano-swarm as a morph. Some of them are litteraly armed tanks while other may look human but with weaknesses and strength completely different from a regular human (unbreakable neck or a ball joint as knees,shoulder and arm articulation) About martial arts' philosophy, I don't say. Why not make it part of the background, have bushido-spirited factions fighting for glory, I'm all for it. Or Aikido-style pacifist that only make people realize how self-destructing their actions are. Regarding rules, however, I don't think that in Eclipse Phase it is more worthy to learn fighting during many years instead of upgrading one's body. Instead of martial arts, get tactics, athletics (or what is best suited for your morph), a bunch of technical skills to understand biological, electronical or structural weaknesses of any foe you could encounter, and use that to get an edge.
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
That would be nice if martial arts simply consists of unarmed combat. Martial arts also incorporates weapon combat. Furthermore, its been proven that martial arts helps in gun combat. Bushido-spirited factions fighting for glory? Are you confusing bushido with klingons? Bushido is about honor, frugality, and loyalty, not glory.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Iv wrote:
I think that combat rules including martial arts would be a waste of time, as many implants or special case would render most of the techniques moot. Most of what you propose supposes that both combattant have a somehow humanoid morph. On another thread, people are discussing the possibility to have a nano-swarm as a morph. Some of them are litteraly armed tanks while other may look human but with weaknesses and strength completely different from a regular human (unbreakable neck or a ball joint as knees,shoulder and arm articulation) snip
You mean that the environment and morphology would make [i]some[/i] of the [i]current[/i] techniques irrelevent. I agree you can't attack an infomorph in melee. Well actually if you're in the correct simulspace... Most morphs are humanoid. Some morphs are not. An info morph or a Swarminoid cant engage in melee combat. So there's really no issue there. But what I'm suggesting, specificly, are New martial arts that are build around new environments and morphology.
Quote:
Instead of martial arts, get tactics, athletics (or what is best suited for your morph), a bunch of technical skills to understand biological, electronical or structural weaknesses of any foe you could encounter, and use that to get an edge.
This is actually what martial arts is. Tactics, athletics and an understanding of the weakneses of an opponent. Sounds pretty handy to me. I wanna write new ones.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Iv Iv's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Ok, I will not manage to convince martial artists fans without being trollish :-) Whatever floats your boat... I for one consider martial art to have the same utility in EP as equitation in WWII.
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Okay. Lets take all the martial arts that are in EP out right now. So there went the skills Beam Weapons, Blades, Clubs, Exotic Melee Weapons, Exotic Range Weapons, Kinetic Weapons, Spray Weapons, and Unarmed Combat. Then we get into skills influenced by martial arts which is Fray, and Free Running. So I guess EP is just a game about drama and politics now. I think Martial Arts is a bit more relevant in Eclipse Phase then "a rider's position on a mount" in WWII.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Just rememered a transhumanist literary tidbit. Morgan's 'Tanindo' in the book called [i]13[/i] (actually the title is 13, in the US. apparently it's called Black Man everywere else.) Anyhow, in Morgan's fiction, Tanindo is the Martian martial art. It seems to be based on centripital motion and aikido like moves developed due to Mars' low gravity. quote: an earth native describing the Tanindo attack of the protagonist; "He was like a fucking [i]wheel[/i] man!"

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Moracai Moracai's picture
Re: The Martial Community
I don't think that there is a real need for special martial arts rules for EP. Existing skills already cover those things. And this is talking as a guy who has trained quite a few martial arts IRL. If the developers (or some fan) decides to do some add-on to core rules along those lines, I wouldn't be overly disappointed though, coz I could ignore them in my games ;)
standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Mifune wrote:
Okay. Lets take all the martial arts that are in EP out right now. So there went the skills Beam Weapons, Blades, Clubs, Exotic Melee Weapons, Exotic Range Weapons, Kinetic Weapons, Spray Weapons, and Unarmed Combat.
Risking to seem like I want to argue just for the sake of it, I feel like venting my opinion on this :) Combat is a much wider concept than martial arts, unless you interpret "martial" and "arts" according to their literal meanings. So you can most positively have offensive weaponry in EP without maritial arts in its traditional meaning. Having said this, I don't see any reason why there would not be martial arts in the EP universe. Perhaps predominantly as philosophies or "ways of life", but also for combat / self-defence. I agree that it would be tricky to lock an octomorph in a grip, or throw a swarmanoid. But since most transhumans use humanoid biomorphs this only means that these techniques would be useless in some situations and useful in most. Given the strict weapons regulations in the inner systems and the fact that most habs don't like people carrying heavy weapons for fear of hull breaks, there would most def be use for martial arts!
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
In that case I was using the original meaning of martial arts which is the art of combat. Anyways, I'm not talking about adding special rules for martial arts. I simply want information on transhuman martial arts, and the martial communities that exist in a transhuman society.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: The Martial Community
Mifune wrote:
I simply want information on transhuman martial arts, and the martial communities that exist in a transhuman society.
We'll be getting some of that in Q1 2010 ! :) I expect Sunward to include at least a couple paragraphs on Direct Action. It should also include a good chunk of data and fluff on the Barsoomian insurgency too. (not to hijack the thread again but; which novel do the barsoomians take their name from?)

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

puke puke's picture
Re: The Martial Community
OneTrikPony][quote=Mifune wrote:
(not to hijack the thread again but; which novel do the barsoomians take their name from?)
from the one pictured here: http://eclipsephase.com/things-warped-us-children actually a longish series. wiki has a pretty good article on edgar rice boroughs.
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
OneTrikPony wrote:
We'll be getting some of that in Q1 2010 ! :) I expect Sunward to include at least a couple paragraphs on Direct Action. It should also include a good chunk of data and fluff on the Barsoomian insurgency too.
What does Direct Action have to do with the Martial Communities? They have as much to do with martial communities as Blackwater (the merc company) has to do with it today.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: The Martial Community
This has been a realy enlightening thread. So far I've learned that, apparently, I don't know what a martial community is and I don't even know what martial arts are. :D If Direct Action--A hypercorp that trains and employs people to do violence--is not a martial comunity then I have to ask; what is a martial community?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture
Re: The Martial Community
I agree with the above speaker. Mifune, first you define martial arts _very_ widely to encompass all kinds of warfare, then you say that one of the few still existing organised warfare organisations is _not_ a martial community? I am puzzled, but also intrigued :)
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee
Mifune Mifune's picture
Re: The Martial Community
-sigh- No, the martial community is composed of the various martial arts schools, its members, self-taught martial arts, and enthusiasts around the world (or star system in this case). Member of Blackwater are probably apart of the martial community but Blackwater exist separate from the martial community. Direct Action would also exist separate from the martial community.
[center]"Hack the Body, and the Mind Will Follow."[/center][right][b]-Sheldon Surina[/b] (Jump 225 Trilogy by David Louis Edelman)[/right]
Thantrax Thantrax's picture
Re: The Martial Community
It seems to me that the relationship between Direct Action and the Martial Arts community would be the same as the relationship between Krav Maga and the Israeli army or Spetsnaz knife fighting and the Russian special forces. I could definitely see a security hypercorp like Direct Action keeping in it's ownership a custom martial arts style that it teaches in it's own fighting schools, both to it's own people and to customers who are willing to pay for an instructor to teach them. This is the kind of product that people can't just hack and run through a Cornucopia Machine, exactly the kind of thing hypercorps market in the transitioning economy.