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Making the Jovians non-stupid

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rfmcdonald rfmcdonald's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
"As TBRMInsanity says, transhumans are quitters. Jovian soldiers fight to the bone because they don't have the option of rebooting from a save point. [. . .] The Jovians will always play for higher stakes, because they have no other choice." I don't think that the Jovians would actually behave that way without rejecting basic principles of human psychology, in contradistinction to their professed claims of bioconservatism. And even if the Jovian elite was happy to junk these principles, I've some doubt as to whether the Jovians who would actually be dying, forks or not, would actually believe this. Ian Kershaw's new history of Nazi Germany, _The End_, is quite worth reading. The _Guardian_ review http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/sep/16/ian-kershaw-the-end-review is dead-on. Briefly, Nazi Germany--Nazi German soldiers, generals, industries, civil servants--fought on against increasingly overpowering Western and Soviet forces at tremendously escalating cost long after the war's end was certain not because Germans as a whole were thoroughly Nazified. Rather, the Nazi government took care to make surrender impossible, replacing key officials with Nazi ideological hard-liners, executing civilians and soldiers who might have surrendered in large numbers, et cetera. Making use of the police state (true, also fear of the Red Army) and of Hitler's cult of personality, Nazi Germany terrorized its population into loyalty. It's noteworthy, as Kershaw and the reviewer take care to point out, that this dependence on terror left Nazi ideology with very little staying power after the Reich's end. If the Jovian Republic is an Orwellian police state devoted to its particular bioconservatism, I'm sure that it could make its soldiers die needless permanent deaths in huge numbers. Whether this would be enough to let it emerge dominant in the Solar System is open to doubt, IMHO. If the Jovian Republic is _not_ an Orwellian police state, however, but rather a state devoted to a more rational bioconservatism and a non-trivial degree of political and social pluralism, its citizens are not going to behave this way.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
I think one thing that should be noted about the Jovians is that technology isn't out of their reach, per se. Rather, it's specific types of technology that they adamantly avoid. Nanotechnology and extreme genetic engineering tend to be the only restrictions they have regarding what they refuse to use. This gives them a lot of leeway on what they will use. Here would be my list of the tech complement that exists in the Junta.... Narrow AI: This is the one element of the Junta army most people wouldn't think about. The Jovians have a problem with AGI (and obviously with seed-AI), but have no qualms with using narrow AI incapable of human-level thinking in their efforts. This reduces the overall number of casualties they likely have on the battlefield. My guess is that their military force consists of as many as 80-90% AI-driven forces at any time. While a narrow AI might not be a match against an AGI or infomorph sleeved in the same system, Jovians can compensate simply by matching quality with quantity. After all, one AGI-driven exoskeleton is still no match for four AI-driven exoskeletons, even if one is a pushover. Vehicles: This stands as the mainstay of the Jovian military might. As a splicer or flat's body has no chance of matching toe to toe with a transhuman in a fistfight, exoskeletons and artillery act as the great equalizer in a Jovian war. Even common infantry are probably equipped with a basic exoskeleton unit, and many soldiers probably do not even go to the frontlines themselves (including said infantry), instead opting to jam their vehicles remotely. Should communications fail, a pre-loaded AI can kick in to take control until such a time as teleoperation transmissions can resume. This ensures that a Jovian soldier can hit the battlefield despite "dying many times", giving them similar advantages to transhumans. Weaponry: Jovian research probably stays at the forefront of ballistic and laser weaponry, with a flurry of designs coming off the backburner all the time. While their weapon components are not precision-crafted with modern nanotechnology, they utilize a combination of traditional factory manufacture and handcrafting that is unmatched elsewhere in the system. This creates weapons that tend to be more durable and reliable than weapons from other regions from the system, even if they are slightly less precise and perhaps have slightly reduced range. Implants: You're likely to have a mixed bag here. Implants existed long before the Fall, and I highly doubt that the fall turned many bioconservatives against the concept unless they were already hesitant to begin with. Prosthesis has existed for centuries already, so I highly doubt they are going to resist its continued usage. More bioconservatives are likely amicable to cyberware than bioware (with the exception of nanotech, which they hate nearly universally). A stereotype that Jovians never used any implants can work toward their favor, as enemies will underestimate the potential of any given Jovian they meet. However, any implants outside of organ and limb replacement are likely to require licenses or enlisting in the military. Surveillance: One thing that the Jovians likely share with other political blocs is their distributed use of public sensor feeds to create an atmosphere of community-controlled security. Any Jovian citizen likely has access to cameras in designated public zones. Military and secure zones are likely restricted to certain people (soldiers and officials), however.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
Weaponry: Jovian research probably stays at the forefront of ballistic and laser weaponry, with a flurry of designs coming off the backburner all the time. While their weapon components are not precision-crafted with modern nanotechnology, they utilize a combination of traditional factory manufacture and handcrafting that is unmatched elsewhere in the system. This creates weapons that tend to be more durable and reliable than weapons from other regions from the system, even if they are slightly less precise and perhaps have slightly reduced range. .
I disagree somewhat, their weapons are not "more durable" Why jovians "handcrafted" tech shouldn't be "more durable" than nanotech, Because One application of nanotech is to build macro-scale objects atom-by-atom. Hand crafting and information age manufacturing are up to 1 million magnitudes inferior to that of nanotechnologies atomic precise manufacturing" . So its like claiming a lump of burnt charcoal is more durable than a diamond . Another technological hindrance to point out would be their lesser degree of time utilization. If they don't have accelerated simulates, or have it lesser speed -they have less research time. a dedicated Jovian scientist has had time to dedicate 10 years of research since the fall a dedicated jovian scientist in VR accelerated x2.... up to 20 years a dedicated infomorph scientist in VR accelerated x60.... 600 years This said. Atomic weapons only need second world war technology. Even if Jovians would have less research time; they could update their technological achievements through trade & espionage. If Jovians weapon manufacturers are considered unmatched this can quite easily be be justified with a reasons like They have a zeal to have the largest stockpile of military class weapons . they are the only known participating contender. Black market goons favour Jovian weapons just because they are of a simpler technology. (Especially if a "legal" hypercorp manufactured weapon would refuse usage as a deadly weapon & instead call in security). Plus Propaganda, false statistics and popular exaggerations.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
I disagree somewhat, their weapons are not "more durable" Why jovians "handcrafted" tech shouldn't be "more durable" than nanotech, Because One application of nanotech is to build macro-scale objects atom-by-atom. Hand crafting and information age manufacturing are up to 1 million magnitudes inferior to that of nanotechnologies atomic precise manufacturing" . So its like claiming a lump of burnt charcoal is more durable than a diamond .
One of the byproducts of precision manufacture is that more precise components are more prone to breakdown. This isn't because more precise components are weaker per se, but because they require a more accurate alignment. As a simple example, older spark plugs had a terrible inefficiency issue with regards to power and gas consumption, but did not have to be as accurately gapped as modern plugs do. There are plenty of other examples in other fields as well. Vacuum tube electronics had a longer operation life, even if their computing capabilities weren't even a fraction of silicon chips. The most appropriate example relevant to this issue would be the comparison between the AK-47 and the M16 line of assault rifles. The AK-47 is infamous for it's high durability and long lifetime, with very easy maintenance. The M16 is far more precise (the only one of the two capable of being used as a sniper rifle), but was prone to jams in harsher climates and required a lot of skill to maintain. Plus, it's false to say that they are merely using modern crafting techniques, unless you are implying that hand-crafting and industrial manufacture is going to make no more strides from this day forward until the propagation of nanotech. The Junta likely does not restrict the use of micro-manufacture techniques, and may even dip a degree into nanoscopic-scale manipulation. They just aren't likely to do this on a large scale, and will definitely avoid the use of nanoswarms. Plus, there are plenty of methods they can use to keep up with nanotech... in the case of a diamond, other groups will nanomanufacture it from carbon, while the Junta uses carbon presses to produce theirs. Either way, you've got a diamond. The process is just different.
King Shere wrote:
Another technological hindrance to point out would be their lesser degree of time utilization. If they don't have accelerated simulates, or have it lesser speed -they have less research time. a dedicated Jovian scientist has had time to dedicate 10 years of research since the fall a dedicated jovian scientist in VR accelerated x2.... up to 20 years a dedicated infomorph scientist in VR accelerated x60.... 600 years
Why wouldn't they have accelerated simulspace? The Junta might loathe mesh inserts, but that does not mean they have banned the use of virtual reality. To that end, I have no doubt that the Jovians keep up fairly well with regards to computer technology. However, they probably utilize traditional manufacture techniques to do this. That's not to say they don't have competitive computing capabilities; scientists today have found out how to produce a nanochip. They just won't be able to fabricate them like the people of other political blocs do. So expect to see slightly larger ectos in the Junta than elsewhere.
King Shere wrote:
This said. Atomic weapons only need second world war technology. Even if Jovians would have less research time; they could update their technological achievements through trade & espionage. If Jovians weapon manufacturers are considered unmatched this can quite easily be be justified with a reasons like They have a zeal to have the largest stockpile of military class weapons . they are the only known participating contender. Black market goons favour Jovian weapons just because they are of a simpler technology. (Especially if a "legal" hypercorp manufactured weapon would refuse usage as a deadly weapon & instead call in security). Plus Propaganda, false statistics and popular exaggerations.
Again, you are making the assumption that no other weapons improvements have occurred from the modern day until the invention of nanofabrication. That's just nuts. Their military tech will be cutting edge in all aspects [i]except[/i] the fact that they don't use nanotech. That's a relatively minor branch of technology, when you consider all the other technology out there. Everything else is accessible to the Jovians. Expect to see metamaterial stealth, AI-piloted (or remote-controlled/jammed) drones, antimatter weaponry, fusion power generation, exoskeletons, neutrino communications, farcasters, railguns, beam weapons, seekers... the sky is the limit with regards to what they'll utilize. It will just all be done without nanotech. Jovians are bioconservative, not Amish.
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LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
To be honest, I think the obsession a lot of people have with the nano-assemblers in regards to this setting is somewhat misguided. It's true that nano-assemblers offer advantages, but I don't think that the nano-assembler is the be-all-end-all to conventional industry. For one, the main advantage of a nanofactory is that can assemble anything (within limits) from primary components such as hydrogen and carbon feedstock. However, this doesn't necissarily mean that to do so will be more efficient than conventional industry. All the advantages that come from the nanofactories' utility and flexibility are effectively for nought if all you want is a factory than can produce the same item in large amounts. (Also, the Jovian Republic does use nanomanufactoring according to the Core Book; it's just heavily restricted and largely for corporate and military use. Which would mean that in terms of military manufacturing, the question of why the Jovians haven't been surpassed by the rest of the Solar System is somewhat less of an issue if nanomanufacturing is overly superior to conventional industrial production.) On the matter of research, the ability to do VR-simulations at 60x is a non-issue; physics-simulations will be running faster than than anyway because you'll be using simplified simulations that don't need to emulate a transhuman Ego. Physics will gain almost no benefit from 60x VR-simulspaces. (Which would mean that philosophy, art and literary criticism will be the fastest-evolving disciplines in the Solar System, while the harder sciences are running up against a hard computational limit.) For that matter, on the subject of weaponry, development of personal firearms is not really a highly competitive field. While minute improvements can be made, "modern day" weapon-designs tend to be early Cold War designs (most assault-rifles in current-day use), if not pre-WWI design (some handguns), though the 1911 is extreme). The driving force between weapons-replacement isn't large-scale improvements in firearms technology, but rather paradigm-shifts in how battles are fought. While these are sometimes a function of firearms technology, like how most armies replaced their bolt-action rifles with assault-rifles in the period right after WWII, it's how modern (Western) armies fight their battles that call for the replacement of the Cold War designs. As modern Western wars are not fought against large power-blocks, as might be expected of a Cold War Gone Hot, where the battlefields would be large German, Russian and otherwise Central/Eastern-European fields, they're slowly replacing their heavy-calibre firearms with lower-calibre weapons more suited for the urban, lower-scale engagements of modern (asymmetric) warfare. And even then, the design of the firearms are still largely revised Cold War designs. The technological development that I actually [i]can[/i] see arrising from the use of nanoassembly that will change the military is that it becomes easier to re-manufacture weapons; nanomanufactored weapons can easily be disassembled into components that can then be re-assembled into a new gun, which due to the ubiquitousness of nano-assemblers can be a distributed effort, as opposed to the current-day model of having to make the new guns and scrap/sell the old. Using that the upper limit of nanomanufactoring is 1 gram per second per kilogram nanomachines, it will take at least 50 minute-kilograms to re-assemble a gun into a similar but improved version using a dedicated nanofactory. (Rifle-mass: 1.5 kg) For the record, the Cornucopia-machine described in the Core Book should be able to hold about 4 kg of nanomachines (which, in an assembly-structure, has a density of roughly 0.1 kg/litre), so it should be able to remanufacture a rifle at a lower limit of about 12 minutes. Note, however, that as the size of an item grows, the time it takes to produce that item grows at higher rate, meaning that large, complex items (weapons) will take a lot more time to produce per unit mass than simple items (amino acid-blocks), so we're probably looking at a significantly greater amount of time.
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Cyber-Dave Cyber-Dave's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
LatwPIAT wrote:
On the matter of research, the ability to do VR-simulations at 60x is a non-issue; physics-simulations will be running faster than than anyway because you'll be using simplified simulations that don't need to emulate a transhuman Ego. Physics will gain almost no benefit from 60x VR-simulspaces. (Which would mean that philosophy, art and literary criticism will be the fastest-evolving disciplines in the Solar System, while the harder sciences are running up against a hard computational limit.)
I am a little confused as to why you believe this is true. I must admit I am not much of a physics man, so I could be missing something. However, I come from a family of academics. My father is a professor in algebraic geometry. I am currently working on a literature PhD. I don't see the process of thinking that the two of us engage in to be all that different. A certain level of intuition is required in both fields. In both fields the academic spends time trying to make connections. The nature of the connections is obviously not exactly the same. However, the basic process (in terms of human engagement) isn't all that different. If I could speed up my thinking 60 times I would be a lot more productive. If my father could speed up his thinking 60 times he would also be a lot more productive. Give an academic in a scientific field the ability to think at 60 times the normal speed and that academic will be able to glean insight into their field at 60 times the normal rate;, in terms of science that will equate to the production of more novel, original algorithms, and more novel, original ways to make those algorithms useful outside of theoretical practice. On a different subject, I just wanted to note that I don't think bio-conservatism is something that should always be linked to backwards or totalitarian practices. Today there is a strong cyberfeminist movement composed of such thinkers as N. Katherine Hayles that preaches the importance of embodiment. The basic argument is that who and what we are is a direct product of the thing we use to interface with three dimensional/physical space. Information, these critics argue, is inherently contextualized by its hardware; change the hardware and you change the information. Now, obviously some hardware is similar enough that it can contextualize information in virtually the same way. You can move files from one computer to another. But human identity is a more complex thing. True intelligence (and there is a complex argument as to why this is true) is the product of engagement with a reality. The nature of that engagement shapes the nature of that intelligence. In many ways what that group of thinkers preach is bio-conservative. However, the group is very left wing in their thought process. What they are interested in doing, ultimately, is ensuring that the needs of a body are not forgotten to the point where groups of people (such as women or ethnicities) are mistreated because their needs are forgotten.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
LatwPIAT wrote:
To be honest, I think the obsession a lot of people have with the nano-assemblers in regards to this setting is somewhat misguided. It's true that nano-assemblers offer advantages, but I don't think that the nano-assembler is the be-all-end-all to conventional industry. For one, the main advantage of a nanofactory is that can assemble anything (within limits) from primary components such as hydrogen and carbon feedstock. However, this doesn't necissarily mean that to do so will be more efficient than conventional industry. All the advantages that come from the nanofactories' utility and flexibility are effectively for nought if all you want is a factory than can produce the same item in large amounts. (Also, the Jovian Republic does use nanomanufactoring according to the Core Book; it's just heavily restricted and largely for corporate and military use. Which would mean that in terms of military manufacturing, the question of why the Jovians haven't been surpassed by the rest of the Solar System is somewhat less of an issue if nanomanufacturing is overly superior to conventional industrial production.)
Exactly. The big revolution was nanoscale manufacture, not nano-assembly. Jovians still use nanochips, nanoscopes for scientific research, robotic arms with nanoscale manipulators, and plenty of other nano-level tech. They generally just stay away from advanced nanotechnology that involves the use of swarms. This is far less limiting than people want to believe. I see the tech difference being something we see in the drug war today... cartels don't have the drones and multitude of other technologies that our military and drug enforcement agencies have, but the technology they do have, combined with ingenuity, tends to make up for that.
LatwPIAT wrote:
On the matter of research, the ability to do VR-simulations at 60x is a non-issue; physics-simulations will be running faster than than anyway because you'll be using simplified simulations that don't need to emulate a transhuman Ego. Physics will gain almost no benefit from 60x VR-simulspaces. (Which would mean that philosophy, art and literary criticism will be the fastest-evolving disciplines in the Solar System, while the harder sciences are running up against a hard computational limit.)
I think that the reason VR simulspace was brought up is because a scientific think-tank given 5 hours to come up with a new idea, or conceive of a new concept effectively gets 300 hours of time when subjected to maximum acceleration in VR. I still see no particular reason why the Jovians would be restricted from VR use to begin with, however. Nothing that the Jovians seem to espouse against implies that they would deign from the use of the high-end computational models that VR essentially is.
LatwPIAT wrote:
For that matter, on the subject of weaponry, development of personal firearms is not really a highly competitive field. While minute improvements can be made, "modern day" weapon-designs tend to be early Cold War designs (most assault-rifles in current-day use), if not pre-WWI design (some handguns), though the 1911 is extreme). The driving force between weapons-replacement isn't large-scale improvements in firearms technology, but rather paradigm-shifts in how battles are fought. While these are sometimes a function of firearms technology, like how most armies replaced their bolt-action rifles with assault-rifles in the period right after WWII, it's how modern (Western) armies fight their battles that call for the replacement of the Cold War designs. As modern Western wars are not fought against large power-blocks, as might be expected of a Cold War Gone Hot, where the battlefields would be large German, Russian and otherwise Central/Eastern-European fields, they're slowly replacing their heavy-calibre firearms with lower-calibre weapons more suited for the urban, lower-scale engagements of modern (asymmetric) warfare. And even then, the design of the firearms are still largely revised Cold War designs.
Most of the weapons tech that exists within the Eclipse Phase universe already exists today, albeit much in prototypical form. Railguns and beam weapons are a reality as-is, and no nanofabrication techniques are necessary to make them happen. Plus, arms-tech has largely hit a cap with regards to effectiveness. We have the means to dramatically increase the rounds-per-minute of our firearms, but the bullet requirements make it completely non-essential, especially since current automatic firearms capabilities are more than substantial. Furthermore, ballistics has long surpassed our ability to produce effective armors, and there's little need to improve armor-piercing capability since no armor has been developed that can withstand the high end of what exists already. Offensive technologies tend to improve as defensive technologies create demand... but modern warfare has made it so that the need for defensive technologies has been supplemented by improved defensive tactics.
LatwPIAT wrote:
The technological development that I actually [i]can[/i] see arrising from the use of nanoassembly that will change the military is that it becomes easier to re-manufacture weapons; nanomanufactored weapons can easily be disassembled into components that can then be re-assembled into a new gun, which due to the ubiquitousness of nano-assemblers can be a distributed effort, as opposed to the current-day model of having to make the new guns and scrap/sell the old. Using that the upper limit of nanomanufactoring is 1 gram per second per kilogram nanomachines, it will take at least 50 minute-kilograms to re-assemble a gun into a similar but improved version using a dedicated nanofactory. (Rifle-mass: 1.5 kg) For the record, the Cornucopia-machine described in the Core Book should be able to hold about 4 kg of nanomachines (which, in an assembly-structure, has a density of roughly 0.1 kg/litre), so it should be able to remanufacture a rifle at a lower limit of about 12 minutes. Note, however, that as the size of an item grows, the time it takes to produce that item grows at higher rate, meaning that large, complex items (weapons) will take a lot more time to produce per unit mass than simple items (amino acid-blocks), so we're probably looking at a significantly greater amount of time.
Improved industrial recycling processes have probably given the Jovians a decent capability in even this regard. Assembly lines that convert old debris into new gear are probably very efficient, and are a mainstay element of making the Jovian economy stable. The only place I can see them hurting is in food recycling... the reconversion of carbohydrates and amino acids practically requires nanotech, so it's very likely that they don't do this (or at least don't do this on a large scale). On the other hand, it's very possible that they have made an exception to their rules in this regard (they do allow the use of splicers and smart animals, despite their disdain for genefixing). Worst case scenario is that they contract hypercorps to handle food recycling and waste disposal.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Herbo Herbo's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Cyber-Dave wrote:
I am a little confused as to why you believe this is true. I must admit I am not much of a physics man, so I could be missing something.
A lot of hard science in 2011 is done in computer simulations with results being interpreted by humans. Granted that is a gross oversimplification but we rely on calculators pretty heavily. In Eclipse Phase you will also have access to restrained AI's everywhere including the Jovian Republic that will do a lot of the legwork (recalibration, interpretation, etc) that modern day scientists are still performing...there go the robots taking our jobs again! So, I think, LatwPIAT was saying that regardless of the advanced time allotted to a scientist in a VR simulspace...the work is still going to rely on computers to the point that it probably makes more sense to just let the AI computers do it and then interpret the results instead of babysitting the process (though they surely could plug an Ego into the VR if that was somehow adventageous or required). Anyone that's ever had to do extensive lab work I think would agree that letting a magical AI computer do most of the grunt work would be infinitely superior to actually doing it for 60 days a day. Doing math by hand stopped being fun in the 1600's.... Writers, artists, etc just don't have that same stumbling point because their progress and volume of work is limited only to what they can accomplish in the waking hours of a 24-hour day (in VR a musician or artist could bang out a contemporary artist's lifetime of work 60x faster).
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Cyber-Dave wrote:
On a different subject, I just wanted to note that I don't think bio-conservatism is something that should always be linked to backwards or totalitarian practices.
I agree. To that end, I don't think the Jovians should be considered backwards (even if they are clearly totalitarian). Their aversion to nanotechnology and genetic modification hasn't necessarily held them back much. Rather, it has forced them to begin divergent research, which allows them similar effectiveness while utilizing different techniques. Halting one or two aspects of technology doesn't halt the progress of technology altogether.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Cyber-Dave Cyber-Dave's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Herbo wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
I am a little confused as to why you believe this is true. I must admit I am not much of a physics man, so I could be missing something.
A lot of hard science in 2011 is done in computer simulations with results being interpreted by humans. Granted that is a gross oversimplification but we rely on calculators pretty heavily. In Eclipse Phase you will also have access to restrained AI's everywhere including the Jovian Republic that will do a lot of the legwork (recalibration, interpretation, etc) that modern day scientists are still performing...there go the robots taking our jobs again! So, I think, LatwPIAT was saying that regardless of the advanced time allotted to a scientist in a VR simulspace...the work is still going to rely on computers to the point that it probably makes more sense to just let the AI computers do it and then interpret the results instead of babysitting the process (though they surely could plug an Ego into the VR if that was somehow adventageous or required). Anyone that's ever had to do extensive lab work I think would agree that letting a magical AI computer do most of the grunt work would be infinitely superior to actually doing it for 60 days a day. Doing math by hand stopped being fun in the 1600's....
I understand that computers make life easier for scientists. I would never dispute that. My point was that interpretation is still largely a human process. Likewise, when it comes to creating new theorems, based on how my father expresses the nature of his work, I think the intuitive aspect of that work is likewise very human. I would argue that an AI would have to be of alpha fork ego quality in order to possess the adaptability required to perform the process. But, that is just my interpretation based on what I know...
Herbo wrote:
Writers, artists, etc just don't have that same stumbling point because their progress and volume of work is limited only to what they can accomplish in the waking hours of a 24-hour day (in VR a musician or artist could bang out a contemporary artist's lifetime of work 60x faster).
You would be surprised just how much computers aid the process of artistic endeavors. I am not a musician, but I do write for a living. I would hate to go back to the days when I had to write by typewriter, or even worse, by hand. Computers are massively helpful at speeding up the process of writing. The ability to copy and paste, perform basic editing functions, and to process, format, and typeset have fundamentally altered the field. What computers are not very good at doing is composing. The process of composing is still a human process. I suppose my argument is that, it at least seems to me, the scientific field is not all that different. Menial tasks are aided by computers to the point where the field has been fundamentally altered. However, the process of composition is still a human process in both fields. I don't see why that would be any different in the world of EP. Certainly computers will drastically speed up the process of science in the EP universe. I imagine they will further speed up the process of artistic production as well. But both fields will still have some sort of creative facet which still requires a level of adaptability, intuition, and creativity that can only be performed by alpha quality thought processing. A very advanced AI could perform the task. But, alpha quality egos are virtually just a type of advanced AI...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Cyber-Dave wrote:
I understand that computers make life easier for scientists. I would never dispute that. My point was that interpretation is still largely a human process. Likewise, when it comes to creating new theorems, based on how my father expresses the nature of his work, I think the intuitive aspect of that work is likewise very human. I would argue that an AI would have to be of alpha fork ego quality in order to possess the adaptability required to perform the process. But, that is just my interpretation based on what I know...
Still, there's only so much a scientist can do in a think-tank. At some point they have to put their theories to the test, or else their theories are completely worthless. What good is science without the search for evidence to back it?
Cyber-Dave wrote:
You would be surprised just how much computers aid the process of artistic endeavors. I am not a musician, but I do write for a living. I would hate to go back to the days when I had to write by typewriter, or even worse, by hand. Computers are massively helpful at speeding up the process of writing. The ability to copy and paste, perform basic editing functions, and to process, format, and typeset have fundamentally altered the field. What computers are not very good at doing is composing. The process of composing is still a human process. I suppose my argument is that, it at least seems to me, the scientific field is not all that different. Menial tasks are aided by computers to the point where the field has been fundamentally altered. However, the process of composition is still a human process in both fields. I don't see why that would be any different in the world of EP. Certainly computers will drastically speed up the process of science in the EP universe. I imagine they will further speed up the process of artistic production as well. But both fields will still have some sort of creative facet which still requires a level of adaptability, intuition, and creativity that can only be performed by alpha quality thought processing.
His point was that in accelerated simspace, any person can effectively do whatever they wish. If it takes you 2 hours to write up a short story, it will take you 2 hours to write that same story while you are in simspace... but when you exit back to the real world, only 2 minutes will have passed. This grants a massive edge for creative works like art, but does not necessarily help with the sciences... after all, a scientist is limited to however fast he can test his theories, and running physics experiments in a simulated environment would take up far more computing resources than a perceived digital world for recreation purposes would.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
A very advanced AI could perform the task. But, alpha quality egos are virtually just a type of advanced AI...
Alpha forks are a perfect copy of your mind. They really only count as AI if you happen to be an AI, as they are always as artificial as you are.
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Cyber-Dave Cyber-Dave's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
I think that you missed my point Decivre. It seems to me that you talked past me in much of your last post... maybe I am missing something. (EDIT: Please don't take this statement as an attempt to be snarky. I am expressing honest confusion. Some of your statements don't really contradict my statements. Other statements seemed to miss the point I was making. I get the impression that there is some miscommunication going on.)
Decivre wrote:
Still, there's only so much a scientist can do in a think-tank. At some point they have to put their theories to the test, or else their theories are completely worthless. What good is science without the search for evidence to back it?
Who argued otherwise? What you just said is analogous to the statement that computers make the performance of scientific research easier. I agree. I agree that eventually you will need to search for evidence. I agree that in many ways computers make that search much easier and more productive. I simply noted that that fact does not erase the component of "what a scientist does in a think-tank." It seems to me that the 60 times speed of life would still be very useful to scientists in a think tank. That is all... which doesn't seem to contradict what you wrote. What am I missing?
Decivre wrote:
His point was that in accelerated simspace, any person can effectively do whatever they wish. If it takes you 2 hours to write up a short story, it will take you 2 hours to write that same story while you are in simspace... but when you exit back to the real world, only 2 minutes will have passed. This grants a massive edge for creative works like art, but does not necessarily help with the sciences... after all, a scientist is limited to however fast he can test his theories, and running physics experiments in a simulated environment would take up far more computing resources than a perceived digital world for recreation purposes would.
I understood his point. My point was that 2 hours of work in a think tank is 2 hours in a think tank. In simuspace, that 2 hours would be performed in 2 minutes. I am not sure where this perceived massive edge for creative works is coming from. "How fast he can test his theories" seems roughly analogous to "how fast you can mechanically write, edit, and typeset before publication." I do not understand why the assumption that one would require less computing power than the other exists. Hell, we use computers to test many scientific theories today. Meanwhile, a human editor is still required to edit because computers are just not advanced enough (yet) to handle the job themselves. Today no computer application used by a mathematician in the field of algebraic geometry requires more computing power than a top end video game (which is what I roughly equate the simulated environment for the purposes of recreation to be). In fact, my father, who is fairly well known in his field, barely knows how to use a computer. Why would we assume that the future would be so different? Certainly some scientific fields would require more advanced computers. But, that does not remove the importance of think-tank work, or the benefit such work would receive from a 6,000% boost in productivity.
Decivre wrote:
Alpha forks are a perfect copy of your mind. They really only count as AI if you happen to be an AI, as they are always as artificial as you are.
You missed my point. An advanced AI, in the EP universe, is capable of as much adaptation and creativity as a natural human; maybe more, since humans might require modification to perform at the same level. In this regard the two are virtually the same. An alpha ego working in a think tank is an alpha ego whether that alpha ego was artificially programmed or programmed via a process of biological birth and life experience. Moreover, if you describe the process of "copying" as the process of "artificially creating" (which, depending on your perspective, has some logical merit), then you can say that by copying a natural intelligence you have created an artificial intelligence. I realize that one could argue to the contrary. All of this forms the context for why I presupposed the phrase "just a type of advanced AI" with the word "virtually."
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Cyber-Dave wrote:
Who argued otherwise? What you just said is analogous to the statement that computers make the performance of scientific research easier. I agree. I agree that eventually you will need to search for evidence. I agree that in many ways computers make that search much easier and more productive. I simply noted that that fact does not erase the component of "what a scientist does in a think-tank." It seems to me that the 60 times speed of life would still be very useful to scientists in a think tank. That is all... which doesn't seem to contradict what you wrote. What am I missing?
My point was that think-tanks aren't quite that important in science as one might think. Evidence, not theorization, is key. So being granted think-tank space at 60x acceleration is not as beneficial for a scientist as it would be for someone who is doing a creative activity, like writing a book. Once a theory has been formed, any further virtualization is wasted... and if you surmised that theory in only 5 minutes of simulated time, you've only saved 4 minutes of your life... and you will probably waste a massive amount for testing said theory either way. It's a very minor advantage.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
I understood his point. My point was that 2 hours of work in a think tank is 2 hours in a think tank. In simuspace, that 2 hours would be performed in 2 minutes. I am not sure where this perceived massive edge for creative works is coming from. "How fast he can test his theories" seems roughly analogous to "how fast you can mechanically write, edit, and typeset before publication." I do not understand why the assumption that one would require less computing power than the other exists. Hell, we use computers to test many scientific theories today. Meanwhile, a human editor is still required to edit because computers are just not advanced enough (yet) to handle the job themselves. Today no computer application used by a mathematician in the field of algebraic geometry requires more computing power than a top end video game (which is what I roughly equate the simulated environment for the purposes of recreation to be). In fact, my father, who is fairly well known in his field, barely knows how to use a computer. Why would we assume that the future would be so different? Certainly some scientific fields would require more advanced computers. But, that does not remove the importance of think-tank work, or the benefit such work would receive from a 6,000% boost in productivity.
Even the most complex mathematical equations take minimal calculation in comparison to scientific data processing because it's only requires the calculation of a relatively small amount of data (a finite formula). On the converse, scientific simulations and data processing go through gargantuan amounts of data. Folding@home is estimated to process over 6 petaflops of data (the equivalent of taking 7½ million copies of my computer and running only that software 24/7), yet has only helped finish 95 papers in its entire decade-long existence (just under 10 papers a year, maybe a single paper in 1⅓ months). Other than the calculation of irrational numbers, fractal geometries or cryptographic cyphers, there is little in standard mathematics that requires that level of processing power. Down the line, more and more scientific fields are going to be subsumed by computer simulation and data processing. This is simply because no human being can possibly match the sheer deductive processing that a dedicated computation system can muster. And yes, these limitations do restrict the viability of a think tank. Until you can provide any proof to your theory, or at least show the soundness of your model, it is without merit. Most computational science today requires this enormous amount of data processing. A think tank can only do so much before it hits the hurdle of having to prove something. A 6000% increase in the efficiency of 1% of a project doesn't change much.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
You missed my point. An advanced AI, in the EP universe, is capable of as much adaptation and creativity as a natural human; maybe more, since humans might require modification to perform at the same level. In this regard the two are virtually the same. An alpha ego working in a think tank is an alpha ego whether that alpha ego was artificially programmed or programmed via a process of biological birth and life experience. Moreover, if you describe the process of "copying" as the process of "artificially creating" (which, depending on your perspective, has some logical merit), then you can say that by copying a natural intelligence you have created an artificial intelligence. I realize that one could argue to the contrary. All of this forms the context for why I presupposed the phrase "just a type of advanced AI" with the word "virtually."
The term "AI" is very broad in the context of Eclipse Phase. It runs the gamut from standard AI (muses) to AGI (PC-level intelligences) all the way up to seed AI (TITANs). So when you say "a type of advanced AI", it's not saying much. Seed AI are a type of advanced AI, but the alpha fork of a human mind couldn't even remotely compare to that. Saying "an advanced type of AI" is kinda like saying "somewhere between an inch and a mile".
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Cyber-Dave Cyber-Dave's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
My point was that think-tanks aren't quite that important in science as one might think. Evidence, not theorization, is key. So being granted think-tank space at 60x acceleration is not as beneficial for a scientist as it would be for someone who is doing a creative activity, like writing a book. Once a theory has been formed, any further virtualization is wasted... and if you surmised that theory in only 5 minutes of simulated time, you've only saved 4 minutes of your life... and you will probably waste a massive amount for testing said theory either way. It's a very minor advantage.
That sort of depends on the field, no? Not all science is like that... mathematics certainly is not.
Decivre wrote:
Even the most complex mathematical equations take minimal calculation in comparison to scientific data processing because it's only requires the calculation of a relatively small amount of data (a finite formula). On the converse, scientific simulations and data processing go through gargantuan amounts of data. Folding@home is estimated to process over 6 petaflops of data (the equivalent of taking 7½ million copies of my computer and running only that software 24/7), yet has only helped finish 95 papers in its entire decade-long existence (just under 10 papers a year, maybe a single paper in 1⅓ months). Other than the calculation of irrational numbers, fractal geometries or cryptographic cyphers, there is little in standard mathematics that requires that level of processing power.
Cool. I don't know anything about that, so I don't feel comfortable commenting either way. I am not educated enough on the subject to do anything but listen/read.
Decivre wrote:
Down the line, more and more scientific fields are going to be subsumed by computer simulation and data processing. This is simply because no human being can possibly match the sheer deductive processing that a dedicated computation system can muster.
I guess. But, it still seems to me that there is a strong creative aspect to scientific discovery as well. There is more to it than mere number crunching.
Decivre wrote:
And yes, these limitations do restrict the viability of a think tank. Until you can provide any proof to your theory, or at least show the soundness of your model, it is without merit. Most computational science today requires this enormous amount of data processing. A think tank can only do so much before it hits the hurdle of having to prove something. A 6000% increase in the efficiency of 1% of a project doesn't change much.
My proof is the sort of science done by mathematicians. It is extremely creative in its process. They would receive a huge benefit from a 6000% increase in efficiency. I don't know that that would be true of all scientific fields. I imagine that all scientific fields require some amount of creativity. I image they are all more than mere number crunching, but I don't know. I do know that what my father does would gain great benefit from the ability to think and discuss at 60 times the normal speed. Math departments would kill for that capability. Now, certainly, what math departments do could be subsumed by advanced AIs. But, those advanced AIs are basically alpha egos anyway...
Decivre wrote:
The term "AI" is very broad in the context of Eclipse Phase. It runs the gamut from standard AI (muses) to AGI (PC-level intelligences) all the way up to seed AI (TITANs). So when you say "a type of advanced AI", it's not saying much. Seed AI are a type of advanced AI, but the alpha fork of a human mind couldn't even remotely compare to that. Saying "an advanced type of AI" is kinda like saying "somewhere between an inch and a mile".
My point was only that saying that "an advanced AI could take over for a mathematician," in EP, is the same as saying a mathematician can take over for a mathematician. Advanced AIs that can handle that sort of creative thought process are transhuman mathematicians. They are more than mere calculators, because in order to perform the same functions that mathematicians do today you require a certain level of intuitive, adaptive, and creative capability.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Cyber-Dave wrote:
That sort of depends on the field, no? Not all science is like that... mathematics certainly is not.
Mathematics isn't really a scientific field, as it relies on mathematical proofs and the utilization of axioms until a statement is proven either true or false, while science uses the scientific method. Admittedly, the use of mathematics is a fundamental element of scientific research. Mathematics is far older than the scientific method by a few thousand years, as mathematical proofing is a far more intuitive process than scientific methodology.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
I guess. But, it still seems to me that there is a strong creative aspect to scientific discovery as well. There is more to it than mere number crunching.
The creative aspect is primarily for conceiving a hypothesis and the experiment by which you can prove it true or false. Once you get past that step, there's really nothing beyond observation and comparison. If your observations fall out of the parameters of your hypothesis, you go back to the drawing board. The observation phase of science tends to be the longest element. You can't speed up observation with simulspace. Even if we had the computers that exist in EP right now, it couldn't speed up the process by which we draw data out of the sky, or how fast we can test out our computational models in real life.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
My proof is the sort of science done by mathematicians. It is extremely creative in its process. They would receive a huge benefit from a 6000% increase in efficiency. I don't know that that would be true of all scientific fields. I imagine that all scientific fields require some amount of creativity. I image they are all more than mere number crunching, but I don't know. I do know that what my father does would gain great benefit from the ability to think and discuss at 60 times the normal speed. Math departments would kill for that capability. Now, certainly, what math departments do could be subsumed by advanced AIs. But, those advanced AIs are basically alpha egos anyway...
You are correct. Mathematical proofing can easily be amplified within the confines of simulspace. But that's because mathematical proofings don't need observation to actually find evidence for. You run the calculations, and you're either right or wrong. Mathematical proofing is limited only by how fast you can calculate the numbers. Science is limited by how fast you can gather data. The former is faster than the latter.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
My point was only that saying that "an advanced AI could take over for a mathematician," in EP, is the same as saying a mathematician can take over for a mathematician. Advanced AIs that can handle that sort of creative thought process are transhuman mathematicians. They are more than mere calculators, because in order to perform the same functions that mathematicians do today you require a certain level of intuitive, adaptive, and creative capability.
Well, an advanced-enough AI along the line of an AGI could pretty much subsume every element of human scientific, mathematic, philosophical and artistic endeavors. Hell, an advanced enough AI could subsume humanity altogether, replacing us in every conceivable way. :P But I'm not ready to welcome our machine overlords. Not yet.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
Again, you are making the assumption that no other weapons improvements have occurred from the modern day until the invention of nanofabrication.
I did not assumed weapons improvements wouldn't continue, if that was the case I wouldnt have written this....
Decivre wrote:
King Shere wrote:
Even if Jovians would have less research time; they could update their technological achievements through trade & espionage.
Next topic... Nanotech
LatwPIAT wrote:
To be honest, I think the obsession a lot of people have with the nano-assemblers in regards to this setting is somewhat misguided. It's true that nano-assemblers offer advantages, but I don't think that the nano-assembler is the be-all-end-all to conventional industry. For one, the main advantage of a nanofactory is that can assemble anything (within limits) from primary components such as hydrogen and carbon feedstock. However, this doesn't necissarily mean that to do so will be more efficient than conventional industry. All the advantages that come from the nanofactories' utility and flexibility are effectively for nought if all you want is a factory than can produce the same item in large amounts. (Also, the Jovian Republic does use nanomanufactoring according to the Core Book; it's just heavily restricted and largely for corporate and military use. Which would mean that in terms of military manufacturing, the question of why the Jovians haven't been surpassed by the rest of the Solar System is somewhat less of an issue if nanomanufacturing is overly superior to conventional industrial production.)
Decivre wrote:
Exactly. Jovians still use nanochips, nanoscopes for scientific research, robotic arms with nanoscale manipulators, and plenty of other nano-level tech. They generally just stay away from advanced nanotechnology that involves the use of swarms. This is far less limiting than people want to believe.
"Nanotechnology is the precise manipulation of matter at the atomic level, typically using millions of microscale nanomachines. Nanotechnology transformed manufacturing, enabling new techniques and materials." page 326 core rules "Basic nanotechnology is exceedingly widespread and used throughout the solar system, serving as the primary method for manufacturing for decades." page 326 core rules. See why I disliked the idea of Jovian manufacturing done without nanotech?
Decivre wrote:
Why wouldn't they have accelerated simulspace? The Junta might loathe mesh inserts, but that does not mean they have banned the use of virtual reality.
I was mistaken, Sometimes my mind plays tricks on me present me with (hard to distinguish) untruths. my memory claims I read from source book these ..untruth -Jovians strictly forbids infomorphs (due to fear of AGI). ..untruth -infomorphs required for high speed simulations (greater mental speed and better immersion). Cant seem to find a whether simulspace acceleration exist (a bit more certain of that notion though) Anyway that resulted in to faulty notion that Jovians scientist lacking high speed VR. [b]Regarding think tanks in simulspace x60 [/b] I was thinking more of a futuristic research centre vs their competitor. Or a futuristic Manhattan project vs its competitor. the goal for the participants is to innovate as much they can muster in given time. Certainly both teams will use scientific&engineering High-precision physics engines as computational work horses & experiment labs. same goes for Real world verification. Quick observation is that the team in the simulation would have to wait much longer in subjective time for their "test" results. I Still think simulspace scientist odds are x60 to win.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
I did not assumed weapons improvements wouldn't continue, if that was the case I wouldnt have written this....
But you did imply that they would need to take such research from other groups because they are unable to do it themselves. I don't see why this would be the case.
King Shere wrote:
"Nanotechnology is the precise manipulation of matter at the atomic level, typically using millions of microscale nanomachines. Nanotechnology transformed manufacturing, enabling new techniques and materials." page 326 core rules "Basic nanotechnology is exceedingly widespread and used throughout the solar system, serving as the primary method for manufacturing for decades." page 326 core rules. See why I disliked the idea of Jovian manufacturing done without nanotech?
Again, read what we said. They heavily restrict the use of nano[b]swarms[/b] (specifically free-floating swarms), not nanomachines. There are devices already [i]today that can manipulate things on the nanoscopic level[/i]. They are not free-floating swarms. Nanotechnology already exists, even if it is still in its infancy. Free-floating nanoswarms do not. One does not equal the other. The Junta allows one, not the other. Hell, you can even see this in the info from the book. Check out the description regarding the disadvantages of the background: "Must start with a Flat or Splicer morph, may not start with any nanoware/advanced nanotech." You see that? They aren't fine with having nanotech flowing through your veins, or tech involving free-floating swarms. Basic nanotech is still completely acceptable within the Junta. Healing vats, nanodetectors and nanofabricators are all acceptable (though heavily controlled by the Junta, as described on pg 75). They don't resist the most common form of manufacture, they resist:
The Book, page 328 wrote:
"Advanced nanotechnology includes more recent developments. Like basic nanotech, advanced nanotechnology cannot self-replicate but the nanobots can function normally in most environments and are highly resistant to bacterial attacks and other environmental problems. Typical advanced nanotech consists of a generator—known as a “hive”—that produces nanobots as long as it is supplied with raw materials. Every such hive also includes a miniature disassembly unit and/or specialized nanomachines that collect raw materials for the generator. These hives produce nanobot swarms that are set loose to perform some function in the world."
And they probably dislike it because these sorts of swarms remind them of the TITAN war machines.
King Shere wrote:
I was mistaken, Sometimes my mind plays tricks on me present me with (hard to distinguish) untruths. my memory claims I read from source book these ..untruth -Jovians strictly forbids infomorphs (due to fear of AGI). ..untruth -infomorphs required for high speed simulations (greater mental speed and better immersion). Cant seem to find a whether simulspace acceleration exist (a bit more certain of that notion though) Anyway that resulted in to faulty notion that Jovians scientist lacking high speed VR.
The first is not a total untruth. Jovians heavily restrict the use of mind-uploading and it is frowned upon. AGI and uplifts get no civil rights, and Jovians have no qualms with doing whatever to them (they are just software and animals, nothing more). What is untrue is the idea that you must be an infomorph to go through acceleration in VR. As it puts it on page 262, "While interacting with the simulation, treat simulmorphs as basic infomorphs for all rules purposes, [u]even if the egos are still possessing another morph body in reality[/u]." Anyone can access simulspace, regardless of where their mind is, so long as they have the necessary hardware.
King Shere wrote:
[b]Regarding think tanks in simulspace x60 [/b] I was thinking more of a futuristic research centre vs their competitor. Or a futuristic Manhattan project vs its competitor. the goal for the participants is to innovate as much they can muster in given time. Certainly both teams will use scientific&engineering High-precision physics engines as computational work horses & experiment labs. same goes for Real world verification. Quick observation is that the team in the simulation would have to wait much longer in subjective time for their "test" results. I Still think simulspace scientist odds are x60 to win.
True, but only so much of science can be accelerated. Theorizing is a very small component of all the work that goes into science today. As I mentioned before, multiplying the speed of 1% of the work by 60 means that you're going to be finished in 99.00167% the time that an unaccelerated team took. It's not that big of an edge.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
It seems we all agree that the Jovian will be using sophisticated technologies (despite restricted) such as nanotechnology & simulspace. And that they are considered the top military force. And that they shouldn't be a caricature of Amish in space. But lets continue -to weed out misunderstandings. It seems be a confusion of the abbreviation nanotech, nanobots, nanotechnology and nanofabrication. I think that abbreviation (nanotech) meant (nano)technology and encompasing nanofabrication, metamaterials (nanotubes) & nanorobots. Another confusion is the scale size a of the abbreviation nanobot (and what that is). A swarmanoid morph, its individual robots are insect sized (centimetre sized) page using nanocopter fan blade for uplift. page 144 Swarm nanobots are the size of microbes (microscale) naked to the human eye. page 328 Swarm micromachines are the size of small insects (centremeter scale).page 328 Transhumanity "Nanotech" is thus= centimetre sized & micro sized machines , not nanosized. Irritatingly these machines are called nanotech & nanobots.. Thats likely because these machines has nanosized inner working mechanisms. Our modern technology (not EP) have made Molecular machines ( nanosized) they are also known as nanobots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanocar
The Book, page 75 wrote:
Exploiting the fears engendered by the fall, the republic restricts accces to sophisticated technologies such as [u]nanofabrication[/u], cloning, forking & even uploading.
What are the Jovians restricting, is it the decade old manufacturing nanofabrication?
Decivre wrote:
But you did imply that they would need to take such research from other groups because they are unable to do it themselves. I don't see why this would be the case.
Slower, not unable. And if that was the case -largely irrelevant due to espionage, trade & reverse engineering.
Decivre wrote:
You see that? They aren't fine with having nanotech flowing through your veins, or tech involving free-floating swarms.
Yes I saw that.
Decivre wrote:
What is untrue is the idea that you must be an infomorph to go through acceleration in VR. As it puts it on page 262, "While interacting with the simulation, treat simulmorphs as basic infomorphs for all rules purposes, [u]even if the egos are still possessing another morph body in reality[/u]." Anyone can access simulspace, regardless of where their mind is, so long as they have the necessary hardware.
"Characters access simulspace using an avatar-like persona called a simulmorph." page 262 What do you think this implies? I think it is only the game simulspace "combat" mechanics, though I do think Jovians would restrict simulspace usage. But its a potential pitfall for someone else (GM/player) to think the phrase "Treat simulmorphs as basic infomorphs for all rules purposes" include jovian restrictions of using infomorphs & any potential game rule mechanics for Jovian response against infomorphs.
Decivre wrote:
As I mentioned before, multiplying the speed of 1% of the work by 60 means that you're going to be finished in 99.00167% the time that an unaccelerated team took. It's not that big of an edge.
Your premise is that only 1% of the total work could be done in simulspace?
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
Exactly. The big revolution was nanoscale manufacture, not nano-assembly. Jovians still use nanochips, nanoscopes for scientific research, robotic arms with nanoscale manipulators, and plenty of other nano-level tech. They generally just stay away from advanced nanotechnology that involves the use of swarms. This is far less limiting than people want to believe. I see the tech difference being something we see in the drug war today... cartels don't have the drones and multitude of other technologies that our military and drug enforcement agencies have, but the technology they do have, combined with ingenuity, tends to make up for that.
Yet. Drug cartels have not yet started to consider drones useful to their purpose. However, drones are technologically not difficult to manufacture; the first opensource UAVs were designed and published by French hackers in 1999, and now some of the Occupy sites have begun deploying their own surveillance drones. Cost to manufacture and deploy: approximately $200us ($300us for drones that are controlled over 3G cellular links instead of point-to-point wi-fi or model plane RF controls). Never underestimate what the highly motivated can do with less than what may be considered junk. One would be inclined to consider the Jovians highly motivated even though their level of technological advancement is far less than that of 'mainstream' in Eclipse Phase.
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
I agree. To that end, I don't think the Jovians should be considered backwards (even if they are clearly totalitarian). Their aversion to nanotechnology and genetic modification hasn't necessarily held them back much. Rather, it has forced them to begin divergent research, which allows them similar effectiveness while utilizing different techniques. Halting one or two aspects of technology doesn't halt the progress of technology altogether.
I think you nailed it in one, Decivre.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
Transhumanity "Nanotech" is thus= centimetre sized & micro sized machines , not nanosized. Irritatingly these machines are called nanotech & nanobots.. Thats likely because these machines has nanosized inner working mechanisms.
Well, nanotech is any technology that can manipulate on the nanoscale. The machine itself doesn't have to be that small. Jovian nanofabricators likely use bush bot arms to manufacture things rather than a swarm culture on the inside... the former probably in use long before the Fall actually occurred, and being relatively acceptable to them.
King Shere wrote:
What are the Jovians restricting, is it the decade old manufacturing nanofabrication?
True to an extent. They ban all use of free-floating swarms, and heavily restrict all nanofabrication. Remember, they have the only remaining traditional economy, and nanofabrication could easily make a traditional economy collapse.
King Shere wrote:
Slower, not unable. And if that was the case -largely irrelevant due to espionage, trade & reverse engineering.
I don't even think it would be slower. It would follow a somewhat different progression. In some ways they may even be more advanced, as their use of traditional processes would continue to advance, and perhaps go beyond how the rest of transhumanity goes about doing it.
King Shere wrote:
"Characters access simulspace using an avatar-like persona called a simulmorph." page 262 What do you think this implies? I think it is only the game simulspace "combat" mechanics, though I do think Jovians would restrict simulspace usage. But its a potential pitfall for someone else (GM/player) to think the phrase "Treat simulmorphs as basic infomorphs for all rules purposes" include jovian restrictions of using infomorphs & any potential game rule mechanics for Jovian response against infomorphs.
They are treated as infomorphs for rules purposes, not for setting purposes. In other words, a simulmorph has the following stats: Enhancements: Mnemonic Augmentation Aptitude Maximum: 40 Speed Modifier: +2 Disadvantages: Only exists within simulspace CP Cost: 0 Credit Cost: 0 The Jovians probably use simulspace for plenty of reasons. Soldiers could use simulspace for combat training scenarios, and civilians would use it for social and recreational purposes. For all intents and purposes, I imagine simulspace overtaking the niche that videogames fill in today's society... and I don't see most Jovians being against them.
King Shere wrote:
Your premise is that only 1% of the total work could be done in simulspace?
I suppose that's what I'm saying. Data processing is a massive and time-consuming element of modern science... one that fills a much larger amount of time and effort than any other part of the scientific method today. I doubt this is going to reduce in the future... if anything, more efficient means of acquiring and processing data will [i]increase[/i] it's necessity within future science, not reduce it. I might be overplaying the amount of investment that the elements outside of data processing will actually fill. We might be talking only fractions of a percent.
The Doctor wrote:
Yet. Drug cartels have not yet started to consider drones useful to their purpose. However, drones are technologically not difficult to manufacture; the first opensource UAVs were designed and published by French hackers in 1999, and now some of the Occupy sites have begun deploying their own surveillance drones. Cost to manufacture and deploy: approximately $200us ($300us for drones that are controlled over 3G cellular links instead of point-to-point wi-fi or model plane RF controls).
Good point, I was talking more about the present than the future. It's a very real possibility that drones will begin to be utilized by criminal organizations in the near-future. But the point still stands that they are slightly (not greatly) behind the technological curve of the United States government. Hell, we just recently discovered that they had a high-tech tunnel running from Mexico to San Diego... so we know their tech is pretty boss.
The Doctor wrote:
Never underestimate what the highly motivated can do with less than what may be considered junk. One would be inclined to consider the Jovians highly motivated even though their level of technological advancement is far less than that of 'mainstream' in Eclipse Phase.
Amen to that. In many ways the Jovians have a lot to prove to themselves and the rest of the system. In their minds, they are the last bastion of [i]true[/i] humanity in a Solar system infested with gene-freaks and monsters. They feel that it is only through military force and constant vigilance that the safety of the human race can possibly be ensured. Imagining them as a technologically-backward militaristic society in a hostile system almost seems ridiculous upon thought... like a lone naked man taking on the US military with a butcher knife.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Delete me. The post, not the user. On a sidenote, there should be a delete button for erasing your own posts.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
King Shere wrote:
Transhumanity "Nanotech" is thus= centimetre sized & micro sized machines , not nanosized. Irritatingly these machines are called nanotech & nanobots.. Thats likely because these machines has nanosized inner working mechanisms.
Yes I see i made a error there. Correct statement is instead a Transhumanity "Nanobot" is thus= centimetre sized or micro sized machines , not nanosized. Despite eventual nanotech & nanobots tags.
Decivre wrote:
Well, nanotech is any technology that can manipulate on the nanoscale. The machine itself doesn't have to be that small. Jovian nanofabricators likely use bush bot arms to manufacture things rather than a swarm culture on the inside... the former probably in use long before the Fall actually occurred, and being relatively acceptable to them.
Yes , but that would potentially make them "Amish" since the practice of manufacturing /nanofabrication with micromachines is now decades old. Older than The Fall ( at least one more decade older, but probably more than that). One quick fix is to GM decides that Nanotech wasnt done "typically using millions of microscale nanomachines" until shortly prior to the Fall.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
Yes , but that would potentially make them "Amish" since the practice of manufacturing /nanofabrication with micromachines is now decades old. Older than The Fall ( at least one more decade older, but probably more than that). One quick fix is to GM decides that Nanotech wasnt done "typically using millions of microscale nanomachines" until shortly prior to the Fall.
The size of the tool isn't the issue about technological advancements, but rather the scale on which it operates. In this regard Jovian tech isn't necessarily behind the curve. Bush-bot tech is fully capable of nano-manufacture on a decent scale. While you will probably never see a Jovian Hamilton Cylinder, megascale nanomanufacture techniques are the only area in which the Jovians likely do not work on. They've simply restricted themselves from one aspect of nanotechnology, and that is the use of free-floating swarms. Admittedly, down the line this has the potential to make them the equivalent of the "hypertechnological Amish", but in 10 AF when this technology is still in its infancy, they really aren't behind much, if any, at all. So, think more like "Amish in the pre-industrial 17th century" rather than "Amish in the modern day" if you want an accurate analogy.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
weaver95 weaver95's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
this has been a fascinating discussion to read. thank you all for the debate!
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
The size of the tool isn't the issue about technological advancements, but rather the scale on which it operates.
That doesn't contradict "achieving military superiority despite acting with a less advanced tool -due to the greater number (used in a larger scale)". Jovians can thus have inferior technology and still be considered the mightiest military.
Decivre wrote:
So, think more like "Amish in the pre-industrial 17th century" rather than "Amish in the modern day" if you want an accurate analogy.
I think a better analogy is 1960 & 2000 . The Hypercorps "military" are in the 2000 year mindset of cold war dismantle and pre 9/11. The Jovian are in the mindset of a United states/NATO of 1960s . Having a vigilant war itching army, training its population in civil defence & building safe shelters/ bunkers. Propaganda about the threat of thermonuclear war with USSR Even if the Doomsday Clock for both is past 12 (or at the same hour) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock Why this 40 year gap. Well The manufacturing with nanotechnology using micro-machines have been around several decades. "Several" indicates a indefinite number that is greater than 3 but not large enough to be "many". "Several" is thus at its smallest when its 4. Jovians are thus at least 40 years behind. Even if they adopt new practices to compensate, since 40 year advanced "competitors" will also advance further.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
That doesn't contradict "achieving military superiority despite acting with a less advanced tool -due to the greater number (used in a larger scale)". Jovians can thus have inferior technology and still be considered the mightiest military.
Except their technology isn't [i]inferior[/i]. Jovians have simply held back on the use of free-floating nanoswarms and swarm implants... and that's a fairly small field of technology in total that they aren't willing to utilize, technology that's less than a decade old. cornucopia machines, nanoscale production, standard implants and plenty of other key modern tech are still well within their grasp. It's like claiming that Canada is a technologically-inferior country in comparison to Iran in every way, simply because they don't have nukes; when we both know that's absolutely untrue.
King Shere wrote:
I think a better analogy is 1960 & 2000 . The Hypercorps "military" are in the 2000 year mindset of cold war dismantle and pre 9/11. The Jovian are in the mindset of a United states/NATO of 1960s . Having a vigilant war itching army, training its population in civil defence & building safe shelters/ bunkers. Propaganda about the threat of thermonuclear war with USSR Even if the Doomsday Clock for both is past 12 (or at the same hour) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock Why this 40 year gap. Well The manufacturing with nanotechnology using micro-machines have been around several decades. "Several" indicates a indefinite number that is greater than 3 but not large enough to be "many". "Several" is thus at its smallest when its 4. Jovians are thus at least 40 years behind. Even if they adopt new practices to compensate, since 40 year advanced "competitors" will also advance further.
Just because they have a cold war mindset doesn't mean they have cold war-level tech. The Jovians have access to nearly all the tech that every other country has. The only tech they don't utilize is AGIs and free-floating swarms... primarily because those were the key weapons that the TITANs brought to bear against us.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Jovians restrict sophisticated technology such as Nanotech -That is to say, they restrict lots of other technologies too. Nanotech is just one of the examples. Whether or not they are inferior or not, is probably up to each GM to decide, its pretty vague. 2000 military use bombers made in the 1960 (though with some electronic improvment) And Nanotech isnt a small field.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
And Nanotech isnt a small field.
TrueDat. as miraculous as nano is portrayed in the EP setting refusing to use it seems the equivalent of refusing to use standardized interchangeable parts but still have an industrial revolution. It's only 10 AF in the setting. Somehow the Jovians were able to bring their anti-nano meme from earth. This causes me to believe that the advent of true "Build-Anything-With-One-Box" cornucopia machines and swarms are a fairly recent occurrence. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to give up the tech. It would allready have been a part of their culture like internet access is in the developed world today. I think the "Nano Revolution" is fairly recent in EP history so the Jovians might not be too far behind the tech curve, yet, but they will be soon. Did I miss someone making the point that the real reason the Jovians are in trouble is because the can't do accelerated simulspace? Because that seems at least as important as not having AI or nano.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
Jovians restrict sophisticated technology such as Nanotech -That is to say, they restrict lots of other technologies too. Nanotech is just one of the examples. Whether or not they are inferior or not, is probably up to each GM to decide, its pretty vague. 2000 military use bombers made in the 1960 (though with some electronic improvment) And Nanotech isnt a small field.
Well, in accordance with what the rulebook dictates, the only technologies prohibited to Jovians are advanced nanotech and nanoware, along with transhuman and synthetic morphs... basic nanotech is usable, and most other implants and other technology are as well. As for the prohibitions that are detailed within the setting, Jovians seem to completely distrust AGI for obvious reasons... but there is nothing to dictate that they fear narrow AI in the least. This isn't that dramatic a disadvantage for them. Jovians are limited to splicers and flats (the most genetically diverse morphs that probably exist), and cannot touch nanotech implants and free-floating swarms. Everything else is open season. That leaves a broad amount of gear and technology with which they could easily compensate for their mild disadvantages. And while they may have restrictive laws regarding all technology... what do you expect? They are a totalitarian state. By definition, a totalitarian state has restrictive laws.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
Well, in accordance with what the rulebook dictates, the only technologies prohibited to Jovians are advanced nanotech and nanoware, along with transhuman and synthetic morphs...
No that statement uses the assumption that the player starting character template would be a good representative to determine what technology is present. Which isn't nessecary true. The starting template Statwise, etc, etc; It isnt a good representative of a Jovian military scientist (nor its civilian regular Joe). Template might be good for firewall infilitrators, and "hero" type characters -not GM NPCs thats Jovian. So yet again there is enough ambiguity to make a GM depict however they choose, without the golden rule... The only "technology" the core book is saying is banned would be AGI and uplift.
OneTrikPony wrote:
Did I miss someone making the point that the real reason the Jovians are in trouble is because the can't do accelerated simulspace? Because that seems at least as important as not having AI or nano
Yes, but that point was also drowned in the murky waters of ambiguity. Jovian might restrict that technology since they are a totalitarian regime, but they also might not. Additionally it depends on how much of the "total work" can be done from within a simulspace world. If its 1% total work the effect is negligible, but the greater the % it isnt. Also worth noting is that "adequate" physics simulations/ rendering time & real world implementation for experiments/tests would be likely done at the same speed (for example the "offline" side would also use a computer to calculate with) -more waiting time (free time) for those inside while a experiment is tested. If the calculations/experiments/tests are quick it the gap between offline and online might might be increased. Though the simulspace acceleration would give a GM one neat explanation as to why the public in the rest of solarsystem isnt gunghoe about the fall & TITANs anymore. Due to the simulspace Its been far longer of subjective time for them. For some perhaps even 600 years ago. Immortality blues indeed.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
King Shere wrote:
No that statement uses the assumption that the player starting character template would be a good representative to determine what technology is present. Which isn't nessecary true. The starting template Statwise, etc, etc; It isnt a good representative of a Jovian military scientist (nor its civilian regular Joe). Template might be good for firewall infilitrators, and "hero" type characters -not GM NPCs thats Jovian. So yet again there is enough ambiguity to make a GM depict however they choose, without the golden rule...
Why wouldn't the starting template be representative of most Jovians?
King Shere wrote:
The only "technology" the core book is saying is banned would be AGI and uplift.
Actually, Panopticon makes quite a few references to uplifts being made by the Jovians. I believe they also use smart animals, which are partial uplifts. It is true though that uplifts are given very little rights (if any), and are seen as animals regardless of intelligence.
King Shere wrote:
Jovian might restrict that technology since they are a totalitarian regime, but they also might not. Additionally it depends on how much of the "total work" can be done from within a simulspace world. If its 1% total work the effect is negligible, but the greater the % it isnt.
The biggest problem is that we do not have any real conclusive information that either includes or excludes simulspace use by the Junta. My personal theory is that it is a common technology used by them (as simulspace is probably far older than most of the other technology in the setting, and even modern conservatives don't have an aversion to prominent computer technology), but others apparently disagree.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Decivre wrote:
The biggest problem is that we do not have any real conclusive information that either includes or excludes simulspace use by the Junta. My personal theory is that it is a common technology used by them (as simulspace is probably far older than most of the other technology in the setting, and even modern conservatives don't have an aversion to prominent computer technology), but others apparently disagree.
If not an EgoBridge don't you at least need mesh inserts necessary in order to use simulspace? I've been working under the impression that the jovians don't use internal medical nano.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
OneTrikPony wrote:
If not an EgoBridge don't you at least need mesh inserts necessary in order to use simulspace? I've been working under the impression that the jovians don't use internal medical nano.
Internal medical nanoware, no. However, most implants are still accessible to Jovians, including mesh inserts. Tough call on cortical stacks, but the books even state that only the poorest Jovians don't have some sort of mesh access; and since many Jovians have splicers, I doubt that mesh inserts are nonexistent among their ranks. Plus, there's a very real possibility that there are alternative technologies which make simulspace a possibility. External head-worn devices might allow for direct neural interfacing, and so long as they don't use swarm tech, they are likely acceptable to the Jovian mainstream.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Did anybody here read the Quiet War by Paul McAuley ? It's decent enough SF which has some similarities with EP universe. One of the main factions(a bit villainous one) is very close to Jovian Republic and combines both the bioconservationism with radical technological advancements to counter transhumans. Its also based on origins in South America. You can read the book for some inspiration(although its not completely brilliant as it often loses focus and is slow, but it has its share of good moments), and what would relations and intrigues in Jovian Republic look like and how would it deal with technological competition. Some good general points: -even if the tech is forbidden to the population it doesn't mean it won't be used in war "ends justify the means" -the fact that a faction is dictatorship means that it lacks transparency allowing it to conduct some pretty vile research directed at military applications -technological research can mean many directions, just because one isn't pursued it doesn't mean they aren't advanced in others http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-War-Gollancz-Sf-S/dp/0575079320
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Some good general points: -even if the tech is forbidden to the population it doesn't mean it won't be used in war "ends justify the means" -the fact that a faction is dictatorship means that it lacks transparency allowing it to conduct some pretty vile research directed at military applications -technological research can mean many directions, just because one isn't pursued it doesn't mean they aren't advanced in others
Exactly this. While I don't doubt that Jovians avoid nanoswarms entirely, their military may be perfectly willing to use other high-end weapons that may even be frowned upon by transhuman factions. The Junta probably has the largest antimatter weapons cache in the entire system. Plus, they likely have the largest AI-based army (narrow AI, though there may be some high end intelligences that border on or are effectively AGI). Furthermore, Panopticon blatantly declares that the Junta has an uplift research program. Apparently their problem isn't with uplifts per se, but treating uplifts as equals. I do wonder what other weapons tech the Junta has. It could be mind boggling the sort of things they would be willing to unleash on the rest of transhumankind.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Prophet710 Prophet710's picture
Re: Making the Jovians non-stupid
Re-post from a separate but inclusive thread: I still love this thread. This is how I play the JR in my game. Much less hokey fascist ethic and radical technophobia. Rather, more like this: The Jovian Republic is an established military republic based heavily on technoregulation and a well organized military industrial complex. The rule of law is enforced strictly with corporal and capital punishment up to and including public beatings and public execution. Proliferation of nano-technology and augmentation technology is punished to the fullest extent of the law as the general rule is regarded as "The Fall happened because of...and we always knew and said this was going to happen". The society itself is based more on a veteran/military stability body as can be seen in the Federation from Heinleins' novel Starship Troopers. As thus there are two distinct sectors of soceity; citizens-who have higher privileges such as voting, access to regulated nano-fabbers and commercial augmentations, and civillians; who are left to their own devices either high financial assets, high reputation, government service or black market pipelines to attain such, minus the right to vote. The economy of the Republic is not solely based on Old Economic standards. At the higher levels of both citizen and government relations reputation takes the role of financial backing as extremely regulated and reported information of electee platforms is widely available. This society may seem like a far cry from the JR described a la canon however, the constant bombardment of psycho-social oppression is very apparent. Citizens Action Parties (basically organized mobs) are enlisted or drafted as auxillary law enforcement. Neo-Uncle Sam propaganda is intensely populous throughout every corner using the usual addage "There is nothing to fear but fear itself; with that said the man or woman standing next to you may not be who they appear." There is no real threat of being taken at night, the real threat is being caught doing something the Republic looks down upon and being punished publicly. "Public and Brutal" to coin the phrase. As far as regulated augmentations are concerned. Limited augmentation tech is available to the citizenry and the wealthy public. Higher grade or enforcement related augmentations can be bought after purchase of a liscence from the government body. Military grade and advance augmentations are restricted to government/military/clandestine use only. This type of regulation however, has led to some extremely advance innovations concerning robotics, electronics, and habitat/space vessel engineering. Hyper-advanced ectoptics, phased array optics, wireless and wired services, quantum computing, labor machines, anti-matter production, etc. Are all readily available within the Republic. With such a focus on limiting bio-augmentation and frivolous morphing, habitat construction has once again taken a front seat. The Republic has THE BEST life support and amenities systems in the solar system. Advanced methods for radiation shielding, micro-gravity farming, air and water filtration/reclamation, medical technology and practices all receive heavy grants for consistent improvement from the government and civillianry at large for the direct purpose of keeping citizens both happy and healthy. The military is also another major focus with a heavy focus on semi-smart robots to limit physical casualties and capital ships as both a deterrent and Assured Destruction weapon. (Massive battleships with Anti-Matter Space-to-Surface warheads). I'll post more once I have another break for now it is back to coding!
"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."

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