On machine gun and sniper rifle stats

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Iv Iv's picture
On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
First, I'd like to state that I love the simplicity, cleanness and speed of the combat rules. It looks like it is a solid enough system for most situations. I just wanted to point out one thing that I don't understand, unless I missed something obvious : Doesn't The sniper rifle, with its superior damage value, range and its ability to sustain full automatic fire make the machine gun obsolete ? What is the use of a machine gun if one can have a sniper rifle ? Am I the only one to house-rule that the machine gun does 1D10 more and that the sniper rifle can't do more than semi-auto ? It makes sense to me that the snip is built in order to optimize range at the cost of its rate of fire. Unrelated : why is the plasma rifle labeled as the most deadly man-portable weapon in the book ? Clearly, a simple railgun auto rifle with the correct ammunition on full auto has a much higher damage value than plasma rifle. And it can shoot ever turn, not 2/3rd of them.
Halloween Halloween's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
I agree with you
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
Sniper rifles are changed to SA only in the errata, FYI.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Iv Iv's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
RobBoyle wrote:
Sniper rifles are changed to SA only in the errata, FYI.
Thanks ! That makes sense. And what about machine guns ? Will they do more damages than an automatic rifle ?
Young Freud Young Freud's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
I wouldn't be taken back with the Sniper stats if it was labelled "Heavy Machine Gun" or something. Just sayin'. However, shouldn't MGs have the same penetration as Autorifles? I'm pretty sure it can be fixed on the GM end, it's just that the lower pen seems weird as every other thing indicates that the MG is a squad-automatic version of the Autorifle.
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
Iv wrote:
And what about machine guns ? Will they do more damages than an automatic rifle ?
Right now, I lean towards not changing this. Let me try to explain some of the thought process behind this: We based the firearm DVs and APs on weapon caliber, with the assumption that higher calibers inflict more damage and pierce armor better. Medium pistols and SMGs tend to be in the same caliber range, and so have similar DVs/APs. Heavy pistols have a higher DV/AP, because they're higher caliber. In modern day, most pistols don't do burst fire or full auto, though, and if they did the recoil would suck, whereas in EP this has evened out. So a heavy pistol is a better weapon to SMGs in everything but ammo capacity. In the interest of not going overkill with guns, we didn't include a gazillion machine gun types. The one listed is equivalent to a light machine gun, which tends to use calibers lower than an assault rifle. So yes the AR has a better DV/AP, but a smaller ammo cap. MGs are meant to be mounted and would also probably have an ammo feed for an even larger ammo capacity. Down the line, we'll have stats for MMGs and HMGs that will be more lethal than ARs. If you're impatient, I'm sure you can extrapolate what the stats are likely to be on your own. I'm open to hearing what people playing the game think about all of this, of course.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Camillus Camillus's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
Modern LMG fire the same caliber rounds as assault rifles. Some are modified AR with a heavier barrel and altered internal mechanics for sustained fire.
Iv Iv's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
RobBoyle wrote:
In the interest of not going overkill with guns, we didn't include a gazillion machine gun types. The one listed is equivalent to a light machine gun, which tends to use calibers lower than an assault rifle. So yes the AR has a better DV/AP, but a smaller ammo cap. MGs are meant to be mounted and would also probably have an ammo feed for an even larger ammo capacity. Down the line, we'll have stats for MMGs and HMGs that will be more lethal than ARs. If you're impatient, I'm sure you can extrapolate what the stats are likely to be on your own. I'm open to hearing what people playing the game think about all of this, of course.
As this is an invitation I'll voice my opinion : The LMG, as described, is useless. I am a bit sad to hear that bigger guns will come in the next books. Eclipse Phase seemed to make it pretty clear that big guns were available but were not the main interest of the game. So when my players sleeve in reapers for a "cleaning" mission, they ask for the biggest gun on the shelf and get it. I would have liked for it to be included in the weapons list. But as you suggested, I'll extrapolate bigger guns.
LordDamian LordDamian's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
RobBoyle wrote:
Right now, I lean towards not changing this. Let me try to explain some of the thought process behind this: We based the firearm DVs and APs on weapon caliber, with the assumption that higher calibers inflict more damage and pierce armor better. Medium pistols and SMGs tend to be in the same caliber range, and so have similar DVs/APs. Heavy pistols have a higher DV/AP, because they're higher caliber. In modern day, most pistols don't do burst fire or full auto, though, and if they did the recoil would suck, whereas in EP this has evened out. So a heavy pistol is a better weapon to SMGs in everything but ammo capacity.
actually, a little reality check, AP should be based on Velocity, not caliber. a faster round always has a better penetration, and a smaller, faster round is ALWAYS better at penetration. Don't believe me? check out SLAP ammo. infact, that's the whole idea behind sabot ammo in the first place. Actually, in the interests of full disclosure, penetration can be expressed by (velocity x mass) / caliber, whereas damage is more on the order of mass x caliber x velocity (not accurate, but representative)... basicly, it's all energy transfer. Energy is finite, you can either spread it across a large area causing massive trauma (large caliber) or a small area causing massive penetration (small caliber hyper velocity).. add to that the fact that a small caliber round is easier to get to high velocities....
RobBoyle wrote:
I'm open to hearing what people playing the game think about all of this, of course.
You did ask. :) sorry, i'm a bit of a gun bunny.
COLTOR COLTOR's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
One of my PCs decided that he was gonna run up to people with his sniper rifle (close range) to do more damage. Later, I house ruled that at short range (see range table, p.392), the sniper rifle is at -10, and at medium range, it's at +/-0. It basically keeps my sniper at sniping distance. Point blank, however, incurs no penalty.
Scottbert Scottbert's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
RobBoyle wrote:
....So a heavy pistol is a better weapon to SMGs in everything but ammo capacity.
Actually as currently written, the SMG also has better range.
killj0y killj0y's picture
Re: On machine gun and sniper rifle stats
Makes sense. Longer barrel and all.