Junta Hypocrisy

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Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Junta Hypocrisy

Seems like a lot of what people discuss these days is that little fascist knitting circle isn't it?

Well word down the grape vine (Mesh filter: metaphor), is that certain military and intelligence assets of the Jovian government are themselves transhuman, perhaps even asyncs. How can this be though? The Junta's entire point is that they are against augmentation. I know I should not be surprised that politicians aren't being honest, what I am surprised about is that paranoid hacks are indulging in the very thing they are paranoid about!

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
I think you misunderstand.

I think you misunderstand. The tendency towards a hatred towards transhumans is more of a religious, cultural element rather than a legislative element in the Junta. Sure, a large portion of the population believes that we are TITAN monsters. But a lot of them trust us enough to realise we're not all crazy. But because of past experience, they tend to screen heavy. I doubt you could get that body through, but they definitely have resleeving clinics. We at Skinesthetic have a licensed resleeving facility in several of their habs.

Politicians are all corrupt. This is nothing new. They're just trying to appeal to a large voter demographic.

[=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time

Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Can and have.

Gave their customs a nightmare, but they pissed me off enough when I defected in the first place to not care. The sight of particularly vocal bigots visibly paling when my shoulder perched, Neo-Avian best friend cursed them off brought a smile to my face.

Seems things might have cooled down a bit though from what you say though. Glad to hear it.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Ikky Ikky's picture
Actual Jove

Speaking as a Jove who; you know, actually emigrated and worked on a few private and public research projects? Yes, a lot of our KEY PERSONNEL keep 'stacks and mesh inserts, why? Because they're trusted persons who have proven to have the Republic's best interests at heart and keeping their souls on this plane for what they know and their value should anything happen is the price they know they're paying. Shit, ever think how their families take it? Families that just want to forget the fall and go back to a normal life? Knowing they may not get an afterlife with their husband, wife...mother, father.

Jove's never been about being as morally and medically 'pure' as possible, just a very rightful fear that bodies full of exploitable tech, nanite hives and biomods might be a big AR sign "PLEASE PUPPET ME" if the TITANs pass by again.

-@Shao_Tucker

Panoptic Panoptic's picture
@Actual Jove

@Actual Jove

While the the Jovian Republic clearly understand the need for securing themselves against potential TITAN intrusion, they fail to grasp the larger picture. While a population largely consisting of flats with limited mesh access is harder to corrupt, each individual's potential is then limited. Upgraded morphs can offer more of a threat to TITANs, as was seen in the last battles of the Fall on Earth.

On 'IC Talk': Seyit Karga, Ultimate

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Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Amen to that!

Look at the renowned cinematic masterpiece, Pacific Rim! What worked against the Kaiju? Bigger walls to hide behind or empowering Jeagers to fight back?

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Jimalcoatl Jimalcoatl's picture
Recent Jovian Ex-pat

Speaking as some one who was a Jovian citizen until a couple of weeks ago, I hope I can lend a bit of insight into the Jovian experience with augmentations. Firstly, the Republic is not nearly as culturally homogeneous as outsiders would like to think. Yeah bio and techno conservatism are the orders of the day, and resleeving is very restricted, both officially and culturally, but augmentations aren't forbidden. Certain augmentations are contraband, or at least require special licensing (cortical stacks being the big ones there) but there are factions, like the Hawks, who openly push for more aggressive technological adoption.

I'm not going to defend some of the Republic's public policies, but seeing as what happened to earth, can you really expect the conservative minded not to be a bit concerned about adopting radical and (arguably) poorly tested technologies that can fundamentally change a person's sense of self. In short, the Jovian Republic isn't anti-augmentation, it's more anti-resleeving. The general belief is that people are who they are born and raised as and body, mind and, if you believe in it, soul. Switching to a body that is different than the one you are born in thus makes you a different person, and changing into a body that isn't human makes you no longer human. Which raises questions of if you aren't the same person or even the same species, then what exactly are you? Mix that with conservative minded paranoia and a religious culture and you get a nation of people who see transhumanity as the "them" in the old "us vs. them" mindset.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Body and Soul

Thank you for this closer input into the modern Jovian mindset. I left years ago when it was young and was never a member of the military myself.

One thing I don't get though is, as someone raised Catholic and whom still practices (believe it or not) I do find something of a contradiction in the Jovian thought. The soul is supposed to be separate from the body in a strictly Christian mindset. The idea being that it endures beyond bodily death and joins with God. So how is switching the shell of the soul something they find objectionable?

I mean, I'm still the same person who ego casted out of there years ago. This morph is a gift made by a friend of my perma-death father. My muse tells me that my personality quirks and shortcomings are consistent with my original behavioral model when he was installed.

Do note that this is mainly a rhetorical question. I don't mean to presume your religious beliefs, I'm just again pointing out the thread title.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

TranshumanMarina TranshumanMarina's picture
Samuel Unger

Sam here. I might actually be able to answer that last one. I'm not big on the Jovian, myself, But being A biocon, I may know a little bit of the ideas and memes here.

Firstly, Who says your finding a new shell for your soul? The mind isn't necessarily the soul, Religiously speaking, so your soul might be in your old morph, for example. (or already off to wherever souls go in your religion after death, I guess.)
And even if the mind *Is* the soul, the mind in a new shell is a copy, Irregardless of how good a copy it is, and the original mind is essentially wiped out, assuming a re-sleeving, so under the Religous Biocon view, your not the same person, your just a very accurate copy who considers yourself the original.(which would be why the Jovians and some other biocon don't resleeve. if they can help it. They consider it suicide so a copy can inherit everything of Theirs, while in a better/diffrent body.)

Personally, I follow a more flexible line of thought, Theologically, but Even i'm not convinced that those are not issues. (Im more christian gnostic then Catholic though.) plus, there is just something.. Creepy about the idea that your mind could become compromised subtly while being converted to data, making the ego *less you* even without bringing souls into the debate, but thats getting off track from your question a fair bit.

During the fall, humanity received a grim reminder, We lived in fear of the T.I.T.A.N.S and were disgraced to live in these cages we called Habitats.

Jimalcoatl Jimalcoatl's picture
Sam pretty much hit it on the

Sam pretty much hit it on the head as far as I'm aware. While I was raised in a very bioconservative home, it wasn't a religious one so I have very little to say on the state of the human soul as regards resleeving. As for the mind, like Sam said for the most part biocons don't see it as being transferred into a new body (or eidolon as the case may be) but being copied. No matter how perfect the copy, the original mind dies when the body dies. So to the biocon, you are not the same person that was egocast out of Jovian space years ago. You are a copy of that person that is probably dead now, though I don't know your history so I could be very wrong on that one.

Now what this means as far as what types of rights transhumans should have compared to "natural humans" and, perhaps more importantly, what level of personhood these beings have, in the biocon view is a bit tricky. Some will say little to none, like the Jovian Republic's stance. This isn't something I though much about until very recently. Without getting too personal, I was resleeved without my consent. Having been raised with a bioconservative worldview, I find it hard to accept that I am the Jovian soldier that provided the template for my ego. I do however think, feel, desire and have experiences. So I find it equally difficult to accept that I'm not a person. The best conclusion I've been able to come to is that I am a person, but the original Sgt Grosser is dead (or still up and kicking some place if rumours are true). If I resleeve again, that being wouldn't be me, just like I'm not the soldier who's memories I have.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Gnostic Catholic!

I'm Gnostic too! Awesome! :D

I do follow your line of thinking though. I just interpret it as "ego = soul." Regardless, I use a ship for most transportation anyway, so I guess I just don't run into the issue as much. You see, I like my morph. It was a gift and I consider it my fully realized embodied self. My gnosis given form more or less.

So ego casting means I'll be in something that's not really the whole me and therefore being dishonest, however briefly.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Yourself

Of course you are not the same person. Of course I'm not the same person.

Was Bilbo the same person that left the Shire when he returned?

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Jimalcoatl Jimalcoatl's picture
I had to check the mesh for

I had to check the mesh for this "Bilbo" character. I was never one for fantasy stories.

Sticking with your example, Bilbo changed over time through his experiences, overcoming challenges and interactions with others. This form of change or, perhaps more appropriately, growth is qualitatively different from what resleeving does to a transhuman. Yes, Bilbo could be considered to be different from what he was prior to setting out on his quest. He was however still the same being. The same body, the same mind, the same continuity of experience.

When you resleeve, there is a break in that continuity. Your memories, personality, and mannerisms are copied onto a backup. You could then keep living your life gathering new experiences, growing into a "different person". If you were to meet an unexpected end, your insurance provider would copy that saved data onto a new brain in a new body. All that experience you had since your backup would be gone. Is this back-up-you the same person that died unexpectedly? The biocon would say no. You (at least the "you" of the example) died. The resleeved back up is a copy of you at a specific time, but it is missing a part of what made you you.

We can also extend this to forks. Say an alpha fork of you was made. The fork is identical to you in every way. He is a perfect copy. From that point on however he is going to have different experiences and be shaped in different ways than you are. He will likely grow into someone similar to you, but he is still a separate being.

Now let's take this to egocasting. When you egocast, you are transferring files from one device to another. All a file transfer is is copying data from one machine to another, then deleting the original file. You are the original file, the being that comes out on the other end is the copy. It is a separate being from the original you, just like a fork or back up. That is a wholly different thing than the natural* change that occurs in a person as they go through life.

*I don't intend the use of the word "natural" to be tied to any idea of validity, preference or superiority, although my former countrymen probably would.

TranshumanMarina TranshumanMarina's picture
Theology?

Being fair, The concept of the soul is nebulous, and The ego is the closest thing we have to a soul that can be Scientifically proven, so I won't call your beliefs wrong. Myself, I'm not even sure I believe In souls, at least in the traditional manner.

Now that I think of it, The whole soul thing is probably why religious biocons can be the worst when it comes to AGI, Fork, and Uplift rights, since traditionally Animals, Machines, And anything not born from old fashioned human procreation don't have souls. personally, Im of the belief that if one can think even remotely on the level of Transhumanity, then one should have the same rights as one. (Even Beta forks, if you ask me, count as fully fledged beings.) but again, thats a bit of a tangent, only loosely related.

Also, nice to Find another Gnostic! Kind of rare these days, I guess.

Also, adding thoughts to the conversation of continuity, I tend to border the two main schools of thought, In that I do think one is essentially ending themselves prematurely when egocasting or Resleeving. However, I also think that the 'new' Ego is still, for all practical purposes, the same being, and so any distinctions made are done nearly for technicalities sake.. I mean, Despite my own discomfort with Egocasting, I intend to do so In the near future, (a lucrative job offer, of course.) and I don't particularly feel like i'm going to die or anything.

During the fall, humanity received a grim reminder, We lived in fear of the T.I.T.A.N.S and were disgraced to live in these cages we called Habitats.

templariomaster templariomaster's picture
Steel Accord wrote:Seems like

As far as I understand, the junta itself its not agaisnt new technology only against that potentially dangerous technology ends in the hands of everybody.

Its only that their trust margin is much shorter than the rest of the outer system.

They're not definely something like anarcho-primitivist who reject everyform of modern technology, their army is strong, and not only by numbers, to be so strong they have to use modern tech. Will they reject ciberwars and infowars "only" because they have to use AGIs or digitalized human consciences? No, they might even use forks so the original hackers remains the same in his original body but in the end they will use the same transhuman gifts?

And so it goes, they don't accept implants easily but what stops them from using battlesuits with nanotechnology? Creating a battlesuits requires modern technology, and even if you cut the overall technology involved in the process you stil need carbon nanotubes to even compete with other battlesuits. Plasma rifles? Bolters? The list goes and goes...

the thing is that they're conservatives, so they think that a human only needs a few things in life to be a full person, if you need more you need to really justify it. And since they trust the goverment to provide them they trust the goverment for all things even if they know that such goverment is corrupt or a puppet scenario.