I can say that, IRL, a lot of the people who work at places like the Naval Research Labs are civilians, not military. After all, why spend the extra three or four years teaching them tactics, history, firearms and leadership so they can design and build robots? Even if the research is done on a ship, the amount of education required for the researchers likely precludes them being military as well. This will likely become more true as the educational requirements continue to rise, and as characters in the Republic continue to eschew advanced ego-altering teaching methods. In Schismatrix, I believe the military rank was primarily decorative, or representative of his political standing in a sharply hierarchical society. It's more like the Soviet Union's politburo than the US military.

Arenamontanus wrote:

Of course, it is not clear that the Jovian Navy will be patterned on the US *navy*, it might be more like the US air force - any particular reason why the space force would pattern one way or another (or come up with some other ranks?)

The simplest reason is just because of the nature of having a command structure that involves a "fleet" of ships--the fact that these ships are in space instead of on (or in) the ocean is a moot point, as either way it serves the same purpose: maintaining the security and borders of a sovereign power and protecting the lines of transit. While it's certainly not a given, it wouldn't be at all surprising to anyone, I think, if at some point down the line the Navy was given control of space-born fleets, if only out of tradition. The Air Force, by contrast, specializes in smaller craft, and so most likely would simply serve in the same capacity it always has; hell, their stated mission to this day is to "fly, fight, and win in air, space, and cyberspace". Again, there's no reason why this wouldn't necessarily change, but being that governments like to spend at little money as possible on expensive things like infrastructure, I'd think they'd be more inclined to use something pre-existing--good idea or not--rather than go through the effort of doing a big internal shuffle. Take that as you will.

Arenamontanus wrote:

I have a suspicion that a lot of people in the Jovian military first ended up there in an informal way during the Fall. An AI expert would be drafted or volunteer to help defend against TITAN infiltration, and once a part of the organisation he would be given some formal rank. Various militias and organisations might have been absorbed wholesale during the Fall or the coup.

I think this question depends a lot on the politics. In a US-type situation, I would not WANT to get a military rank - because then I'm obliged by military laws, regs and chain of command, and the best I get in return is military pay (which sucks). However, in a situation like Cuba, the Soviet Union or whatever the hab in Schismatrix was, where the nation is run by Internal Security, having a rank confers safety, security and loyalty, so it becomes more desirable.

Quote:

Of course, it is not clear that the Jovian Navy will be patterned on the US *navy*, it might be more like the US air force - any particular reason why the space force would pattern one way or another (or come up with some other ranks?)

Because the Navy is awesome and the Chair Force sucks. Go Navy, Beat Army!! ; P Seriously though, it depends. The Air Force is really aiming for fielding autonomous or small crewed, specialized vehicles which rely on a huge infrastructure and lots of nice golf courses. Air Force is actually the worst branch to go into if you're looking to fly. Meanwhile, Navy fields large, independent crafts serving as a platforms for varied missions, with crews of hundreds or thousands. A space probe or missile defense system falls under the current USAF paradigm. A Jovian Destroyer falls under the USN paradigm. Which one actually comes into dominance will realistically rely on completely unrelated details, though. Who has the most people already posted outside of Earth? Who holds that equipment? How many of the politicians who establish the Junta are Air Force boys and girls? How many are Navy? (Browsing wikipedia, 22 US Presidents were Army/Militia, albeit most Civil War or prior, 6 Navy, 1 Air Force.)

Since it is somewhat connected to the topic here are some ideas I wrote down a long time ago regarding possible cover for Jovian military research: Edward Teller Institute for Advanced Physics-while it officially studies breakthrough physics and engineering projects, one of its goals is Project Thor-using Io Flux as source of energy and converting the field into energy weapon University for Human Progress-official Jovian studies on long term generation ships, their societies and development of closed human populations during extended periods of time. Unofficially the Jovians are also researching methods for crowd control and long term society engineering programs within the habitats, who have subversion oof human populations as their goal. Unnatural Intelligence and Mesh Threats Security Studies Group-officially deals with protection against AI and hacking as well as protecting its citizens against hostile meme warfare. In secret it operates isolated bases in Jovian system where they study AGI development, indoctrination and control in controlled environments

Arenamontanus wrote:

I can imagine that being part of the military of the republic is a good deal - it is like being member of the Party in a communist or fascist regime. You might not believe in the ideals so much, but you do get better housing, a say in how things are run and plenty of respect. There might even be a bit of Starship Troopers over it: you are not really a full citizen without showing that you are willing to do your part to defend society.

Eeeeh, I think you're glossing over an important point when you say "you might not believe in the ideals so much", especially since historically, that's not quite how fascists regimes work. Better to say that if you [i]do[/i] believe in the ideals, then you'll get better housing and so forth. If you don't? Well, just ask anyone that had dissenting opinions when Stalin was in charge, assuming you can find one that didn't die in a gulag. Marshal Zhukov may have been a hero of the people, but he only lived as long as he did because he knew to keep his mouth shut. It's not unheard of, as well, for such governments to be an active impediment to the advent of scientific advances, especially if those don't match the doctrine of the State. I wouldn't expect, for example, Jovian scientists--military or otherwise--to be able to research at any great length about things that don't mesh with the bioconservative agenda without strict scrutiny, not only from colleagues loyal to the Cause, but from military officials less-interested in the science than they are the researcher's political leanings ("loyalty officers", in other words). In other words, I don't think think being a member of the military is a free ride. If anything, you'd be under more scrutiny because you're in a better place to be a threat to the regime.

Right, but that just supports my opinion. It's not that the research isn't allowed, rather it's curtailed to what the State wants, not what an individual researcher might want. It's all to further the State's agenda in the end. That's not to say, of course, that an enterprising individual can't skirt the line--developing an AGI under the premise of an experiment to create a better weapon against them--but he or she will naturally run the risk of attracting attention they may not want, often with very undesired results.

Arenamontanus wrote:

Members of the Party in the Soviet Union were indeed kept under scrutiny. But that might be a trade-off many people are willing to do (consider the discussion of it in 1984).

Perhaps, but I think the events of 1991 showed how the Russian people felt about that trade-off in the end. ;) That said, I agree with your post. I just wanted to comment about the likelihood of people being secretive of their leanings, especially those lucky enough to be "in favor" with those in power.

"Would the JRNRA scientists be warrant officers?" No, probably not. Any number of officers might have advanced degrees. JRNRA scientists might have commissions as staff officers, as medical personnel do today, where they cannot assume command. Warrant officers have commissions, but have particular roles, such as pilots in American Army aviation. The JRNRA scientists, I suspect, would arrive to check out this magic TITAN industrial complex. Such specialists would probably not hold any military rank, though they might have military backgrounds: academy graduate or faculty (e.g. T. Barnett), former service (e.g. Craig Venter), or retired. "Top Men" might also have positions as civilian employees of the JR Navy, and an otherwise civilian team might have a military liason as one of its members. Assuming, of course, you want to preserve today's social structure in the J.R.. You could completely switch that about, and you certainly should make changes to match the nature of the Jovians in your game. I can't help you much with that. I mostly ignore the Jovians as too-obviously polemical or at best, satirical, just as I ignore psi and gates as token gestures to the RPG fan-base. --- "Of course, it is not clear that the Jovian Navy will be patterned on the US *navy*, it might be more like the US air force - any particular reason why the space force would pattern one way or another (or come up with some other ranks?)" I suggest you not use wet Navy ranks for space war military. I realize that runs against the SF tradition, and in particular Traveller, and I've heard all the arguments that submarines better model spacecraft than would airplanes. I think Air Force titles better capture the feel you want. CAVEAT #1--Air Force/Navy flame wars can stop right here. I served in the American Navy and have a fair amount of disdain for the USAF from my days as a military contractor. This gives me equivocal complaints about both branches. Your choice will imply a back-story about which military services ultimately won responsibility for space war, acted in space and their tactics. From the American perspective, if the USAF moved into space, then you might have parallels to their legs of the strategic triad surviving in the Jovian Junta. E.g., "missile silos" in the Trojans or highly inclined orbits and "bombers" ready for flight. If the Navy moved into space, then you might have long-endurance, long-distance, stealthy spacecraft that seve as analogs to "submarines" and isolated deep space sensor stations that match American sonar and radar fences. Of course the environment will drive both to similar solutions. Submarines and airplanes both lack radiators, for example. Picking one service over the other will give you a source of flavor text. You could even have the American Army as the source for the Jovian Navy. In the immediate post-WW2 era, the Army had a rocket program too. Perhaps the off-Earth military assets that ended up in the Jovian Republic mostly came from the Army's deep space special forces? (Think of the Soviet commandos in Greg Bear's Eon.) SEE ALSO: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/crew.php --- "I can imagine that being part of the military of the republic is a good deal - it is like being member of the Party in a communist or fascist regime. You might not believe in the ideals so much, but you do get better housing, a say in how things are run and plenty of respect. There might even be a bit of Starship Troopers over it: you are not really a full citizen without showing that you are willing to do your part to defend society. " You might look at Joe Haldeman's "Worlds" for inspiration. In that setting, a second American civil war had left the military a strictly professional service, extremely well-paid but almost wholly disenfranchised. They could vote, but so many restrictions existed on where, when, and how, that servicemembers almost never cast ballots. In the J.R., the selectorate might also intentionally exclude the military. The coup leaders might have done this on purpose, or it might have developed A.F. by other powerful groups and interests inside the Jovian Republic. This might give the J.R. military a role similar to the Turkish military, where the J.R. military guarantees "the preservation of humanity against run-away technological and memetic subversion" or some such duckspeak. SEE ALSO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_coup_in_Turkey,_1971 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_coup_in_Turkey,_1980 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28_February_operation ...and for extra conspiracy theory points... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler#Allegations_of_the_Business_... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

Arenamontanus wrote:

In the future I suspect I will want to develop the JRNRA much further. They are such an interesting target/adversary/ally.

When the Meltwater project is mostly wrapped up, I'd love to turn my attention to the Jovians. I know there's someone else on this forum who has been working on fan-made Jovian material too, I just can't remember who it is at the moment. I am a bit curious what [i]Rimward[/i] will say about the Jovians, though.