Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Exhumans: What's so bad about them?

213 posts / 0 new
Last post
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Rough conclusion
So I believe some of us will just have to agree to disagree on our policy toward Exhumans. On the whole though, I think we addressed what the OP wanted to get across.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Steel Accord wrote:So I
Steel Accord wrote:
So I believe some of us will just have to agree to disagree on our policy toward Exhumans. On the whole though, I think we addressed what the OP wanted to get across.
My policy towards Exhumans is clear: kill it with fire. It happens to be a copy-pasta of my policy towards Exsurgents, though, because in my book, the Exhuman classification is like the "Exsurgent" classification: exclusively hostile and existentially risky.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Killebrew Killebrew's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Steel
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Steel Accord wrote:
So I believe some of us will just have to agree to disagree on our policy toward Exhumans. On the whole though, I think we addressed what the OP wanted to get across.
My policy towards Exhumans is clear: kill it with fire. It happens to be a copy-pasta of my policy towards Exsurgents, though, because in my book, the Exhuman classification is like the "Exsurgent" classification: exclusively hostile and existentially risky.
Well, remind me never to visit near you. I'd very quickly edit my own mind in order to remove some of the instinctual aspects of humanity that I have no desire to hold on to and feel that we as a race would be better off without if I had the chance. As well as using technology to enhance my physical body as much as I could. So, I think I'd get along fairly nicely with the non-kill all humanity exhumans. Edit: Note, though I would do that to myself I don't believe that it should be forced upon anyone else.
---
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Ahha! A subject Line! I are the Learn!
Alkahest wrote:
I like it! We can call it "the Gray Scare". As in "gray goo"? Nanotech? Get it?
Oh god I've gone too far. What have I created! Noooooo eccetera eccetera :P
Alkahest wrote:
I'm not sure I understand, could you elaborate?
Eh, I can try? I am "Not Good" at explaining things. When one speaks of rationality as a capability, one generally refers to the ability to decide on a course of action to further a set of values, each with a different "weight" - some are granted greater importance than others. When one then seeks to enhance the capability of rational decision making, one has two options; either one attempts to improve one’s ability to compare different courses of action, nominally referred to as intelligence or wisdom, or one can attempt to alter one's values. The example I gave was an exhuman who sought the latter – not realizing that all values are inherently irrational. For a more nuanced example; I dislike curry. I like the taste, but the pain from the spice is simply too much for me. Let's say I alter my values in order to like curry – either increasing the value I grant to flavour or decreasing my aversion to pain. It works great... but now I'm associating a pleasurable experience with pain, and that may well carry over to other aspects of my life. And my first alteration worked really well, so how about I do that again for, let's say piercings... and 6 months later I'm standing outside your house with nails in my head and a puzzle box in my hand... “We have such Sights to show you...”
Alkahest wrote:
In any case, such an exhuman should really understand that going all Xenomorph on mammals will lead to mammals fighting back, which is bad for whatever goals the exhuman might have.
Not necessarily. As I said above, we our decisions are based on the weighting of values, and should the the drive to penetrate precious torsos assume primacy, then it would be perfectly rational for the exhuman act on that desire, even to the exclusion of others up to and including self-preservation. Incidentally, the descriptor of Out'ster on Rimward page 137 says “They have thrown themselves into the abyss and left transhumanity behind. They aren’t overtly threatening enough to be considered exhuman (yet)... Many out’ster colonies are well on their way to shedding transhumanity like an old skin; not to become something better, just something very different.” So it seems to me these Out'sters are pretty much what you would describe as exhumans, but they explicitly aren't, because they aren't threatening.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Excellent. We now have
Excellent. We now have canonical terms for the people who screw with their brains and don't end up attempting to eat all visitors. /thread Shadow, Alkahest, please stop multiple posting. Just edit your old post if you realize you have more to say and nobody's bumped the thread.
Quote:
Isn't that the Naturalistic Fallacy? One sapient's transhuman or mercurial is another sapient's exhuman.
uwtartarus, you missed my point. Humans can deal with humans (and AGIs built like humans, and uplifts designed to act human...) because we know how they'll react in most situations. Working with people who have major mental illness is difficult because you don't know how they'll react. With exhumans this is a problem. Transhumans think a little bit differently than humans. Exhumans think a lot differently, and maybe in incompatible ways. Take the provided Paperclip Optimizer as an example. Maybe PO will talk to you, trade with you, invite you over for dinner. But eventually PO will break you and your hab down for paperclip parts. Let me say again, I'm not trying to argue that all people who modify their brains will act like this. But this is why they're terrifying, it's why they're viewed with suspicion, and often met with force.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
ShadowDragon wrote:
ShadowDragon wrote:
Tell ya what. From now on, my proper name consists of forty-two seperate words, not one of them shorter than three syllables in length. Also, I reject the use of gendered pronouns to refer to me. I also reject the use of agendered pronouns, other-gendered pronouns, neutral-gendered pronouns, gender-neutral pronouns, and in fact, all pronouns whatsoever. Because they do not accurately convey who I actually am. I thus insist that only the proper noun which is my name may be used to refer to me, both in speech and in writing. No form of shortening or abbreviating this proper noun is acceptable to me, as shortening or abbreviating my name is unacceptable to me. To refer to me, you may only use my proper noun. All one-hundred twenty six syllables (minimum) of it. Okay?
Ah, slippery slope fallacy. Lovely. Do you also believe that legalizing same-sex marriage will lead to legalized pedophilia and bestiality? There's a massive difference between saying "Hey, instead of the one-syllable word "he" which makes me uncomfortable, could you use the one-syllable word "Ze"?" and "Anytime you address me, please use this hundred-syllable monstrosity (Which I will not tell you)." Your behavior is transphobic. Please examine your views and figure out why you're perfectly comfortable using the word "Exhuman" but not the word "Ze". Especially in the context where real-world exhumans do not exist but real-world non-binary identified and/or intersex people do.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Erulastant wrote:ShadowDragon
Erulastant wrote:
ShadowDragon wrote:
Tell ya what. From now on, my proper name consists of forty-two seperate words, not one of them shorter than three syllables in length. Also, I reject the use of gendered pronouns to refer to me. I also reject the use of agendered pronouns, other-gendered pronouns, neutral-gendered pronouns, gender-neutral pronouns, and in fact, all pronouns whatsoever. Because they do not accurately convey who I actually am. I thus insist that only the proper noun which is my name may be used to refer to me, both in speech and in writing. No form of shortening or abbreviating this proper noun is acceptable to me, as shortening or abbreviating my name is unacceptable to me. To refer to me, you may only use my proper noun. All one-hundred twenty six syllables (minimum) of it. Okay?
Ah, slippery slope fallacy. Lovely. Do you also believe that legalizing same-sex marriage will lead to legalized pedophilia and bestiality? There's a massive difference between saying "Hey, instead of the one-syllable word "he" which makes me uncomfortable, could you use the one-syllable word "Ze"?" and "Anytime you address me, please use this hundred-syllable monstrosity (Which I will not tell you)." Your behavior is transphobic. Please examine your views and figure out why you're perfectly comfortable using the word "Exhuman" but not the word "Ze". Especially in the context where real-world exhumans do not exist but real-world non-binary identified and/or intersex people do.
Actually, technically, I think it's a strawman argument, combined with reductio ad absurdum, not the slippery slope fallacy; he's assembling an extreme and absurd case that is only tangentially and tenuously linked to the point that he is arguing against. And I don't think that he's transphobic; instead, he's just being argumentative, high-handed and reactionary, which, in this case, are hard to distinguish. [color=orange]However, Erulastant, I have to give you a warning for your own slippery slope and ad hominem arguments; you insinuated that ShadowDragon8685 "believe(s) that legalizing same-sex marriage will lead to legalized pedophilia and bestiality". That's flamebait in the form of a loaded question. Not cool. [/color] [color=orange]However, ShadowDragon8685, you're not off the hook either. Strike One. Quit it with the reactionary dictation and strawman arguments. You're engaging in high-handed dictatorial statements, that since you won't use ze/zir/zirs or other such alternate pronouns, then nobody should use them, characterizing those people who do want them to be used as "[url=http://eclipsephase.com/comment/44248#comment-44248]attention-seeking social justice warrior nonsense[/url]". That's a charming bit of mass negative sterotyping, for which you have earned a strike. Nobody is forcing you to use those terms, but it is asked, respectfully by those that do, that you respect their own right to refer to themselves as they see fit. So show some respect for your fellow forumites who do feel that using such terms is an identification of who they are. [/color] [color=orange]And, finally, Alkahest, I'm going to politely ask that you stop it with the "It belongs on Ganymede!" thing. It adds nothing to the conversation, it is an attempt to Godwin-by-proxy, and all it does is inflame tempers and mock people. It isn't an argument or debate--it is a way of destroying arguments and debates and replacing them with anger and irritation. As part of that request, I will also note that you have a strong sense of sarcasm and I've noticed that your own first reaction to anything you disagree with is to mock it, typically with a very biting edge. There is a time and place for that, so I'm going to politely ask if you can rein in that reaction in the future, so that you can unleash the sarcasm for when it is most called for. But doing that constantly is just going to result in flames and locked threads, so save it for when you really need to bring the hammer down. Fair?[/color]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Erulastant Erulastant's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:
bibliophile20 wrote:
And I don't think that he's transphobic; instead, he's just being argumentative, high-handed and reactionary, which, in this case, are hard to distinguish.
I wasn't saying he was transphobic. I was pointing out that actively refusing to use a particular pronoun set or to acknowledge the validity of nonbinary genders is a transphobic behavior. I don't expect the cause is a deep-seated hatred of trans people, but the behavior is one which harms trans people and invalidates/erases the experience of nonbinary trans people. Behaviors can be transphobic even if their perpetrators are not.
bibliophile20 wrote:
[color=orange]However, Erulastant, I have to give you a warning for your own slippery slope and ad hominem arguments; you insinuated that ShadowDragon8685 "believe(s) that legalizing same-sex marriage will lead to legalized pedophilia and bestiality". That's flamebait in the form of a loaded question. Not cool. [/color]
Whoops. Sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to make the point that ShadowDragon's argument was very similar in form to these sorts of arguments, assuming that he would recognize those arguments as invalid and wrong and so be able to recognize the flaws in his own argument. I certainly didn't mean to seriously imply that ShadowDragon would hold those sorts of views, since I assume he is quite a bit more rational than the walking caricatures who actually [i]do[/i] make those arguments.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Erulastant wrote:I wasn't
Erulastant wrote:
I wasn't saying he was transphobic. I was pointing out that actively refusing to use a particular pronoun set or to acknowledge the validity of nonbinary genders is a transphobic behavior. I don't expect the cause is a deep-seated hatred of trans people, but the behavior is one which harms trans people and invalidates/erases the experience of nonbinary trans people. Behaviors can be transphobic even if their perpetrators are not.
Yes, you were, but we'll ignore that because Bibliophile already gave you shit over it. I'm not transphobic, and I'm getting tired of the insinuation that I am. I [b]am[/b], however, getting tired of the attempted linguistic hijacking. The English language has several [i]perfectly serviceable[/i] sets of pronouns. You don't get to invent words and insist people use them to refer to you. That's not how language works.
Quote:
Whoops. Sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to make the point that ShadowDragon's argument was very similar in form to these sorts of arguments, assuming that he would recognize those arguments as invalid and wrong and so be able to recognize the flaws in his own argument.
The difference is that my argument [i]isn't[/i] flawed. The [u]only[/u] thing I'm arguing against is people trying to invent words and then make everybody else use them. And by the way, since you mentioned it...
Spoiler: Highlight to view
Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer Ämandö Honoriffic Assassin Joyceelee Nuhudson Vredefort Üraniüm Diaeresis Manhattan Chesapeake Jimberlee California Altano Behferbusee Ei'gygytgyn Canadiä Excelsior Shachedar Picante McCormic Morokweng Sunkimsto Optimus Marconi Edisonsen Gallifrey Tokyo Godzilla Jumandi Williamsonsson Popigai Itlido Rehesesus Americümiüm Tunguska Metalloid Compressive Albuquérqué Vredefort. And I guarantee that only two of them are pronounced the way you think they are.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
If you can't tell the
If you can't tell the difference between me saying your behavior is transphobic and me saying you are transphobic, that's your problem. Nothing I can really do about it. Also, you [i]don't get to judge[/i] whether you're being transphobic or not. I'm sure the walking caricatures I mentioned before would insist that they aren't being bigoted or homophobic. That doesn't mean they aren't. The english language has four sets of pronouns, and while those work for most people, they don't work for everyone. What pronouns would you use if someone asked you to use ze pronouns for zim? [i]Why are you willing to use the made-up word 'Exhuman' but not the made-up word 'ze'?[/i] It would be ridiculous if everyone had to use hundred-twenty syllable phrases every time they wanted to refer to someone else ==> I absolutely refuse to use people's preferred pronouns if they seem strange to me, even though they are no longer or more inconvenient to pronounce than other pronoun sets. Clearly the platonic ideal of a good argument. I [i]know[/i] you can tell the difference between "Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer Ämandö Honoriffic Assassin Joyceelee Nuhudson Vredefort Üraniüm Diaeresis Manhattan Chesapeake Jimberlee California Altano Behferbusee Ei'gygytgyn Canadiä Excelsior Shachedar Picante McCormic Morokweng Sunkimsto Optimus Marconi Edisonsen Gallifrey Tokyo Godzilla Jumandi Williamsonsson Popigai Itlido Rehesesus Americümiüm Tunguska Metalloid Compressive Albuquérqué Vredefort" and "ze".
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
"The problem with defending
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." :) To the poster formerly known as ShadowDragon8685: I'd suggest that Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer Ämandö Honoriffic Assassin Joyceelee Nuhudson Vredefort Üraniüm Diaeresis Manhattan Chesapeake Jimberlee California Altano Behferbusee Ei'gygytgyn Canadiä Excelsior Shachedar Picante McCormic Morokweng Sunkimsto Optimus Marconi Edisonsen Gallifrey Tokyo Godzilla Jumandi Williamsonsson Popigai Itlido Rehesesus Americümiüm Tunguska Metalloid Compressive Albuquérqué Vredefort stop attempting to take the moral high ground, as previous statements from your previous identity have stated emphatically and repeatedly what the primary problem is with such attempts: that said high ground is sighted in by someone else's artillery, and that strawman targets make for wonderful explosions of hay when the shells land.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Language does not work that
[b]Language does not work that way![/b] I don't know how many times I have to say it. You don't get to dramatically alter fundamental parts of the language, like pronouns, and then force your edits on everyone, because you decided that the preexisting fundamental parts of that language don't apply to you. As for "Exhuman," it was pretty well codified in the Eclipse Phase books, more in the usage than in the definitions, what that word means. [i]That is how a word gets to be defined[/i]. When you're the first person to come up with the need for that word, you get to define it - but [i]only[/i] if everyone else agrees there is a need for that word. For instance, "Computer" applying to the devices we consider computers, or "Exhuman" referring to dangerous post-transhuman entities which are violent and hostile. As for the difference between insisting that my proper noun is the only form of acceptable reference to me, and "xe," the difference is only one of scale. It's still someone who has decided that the standard pronouns [i]are not acceptable[/i] to use in reference to them, and [i]demanding[/i] that their preference be used. [i]Language does not work that way[/i].
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:"The
bibliophile20 wrote:
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." :)
Yes, but even importing loanwords isn't the same as making up whatever-the-hell, and loanwords are almost always imported to cover a concept which the English language doesn't handle well, like "schadenfreude."
Quote:
To the poster formerly known as ShadowDragon8685: I'd suggest that Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer Ämandö Honoriffic Assassin Joyceelee Nuhudson Vredefort Üraniüm Diaeresis Manhattan Chesapeake Jimberlee California Altano Behferbusee Ei'gygytgyn Canadiä Excelsior Shachedar Picante McCormic Morokweng Sunkimsto Optimus Marconi Edisonsen Gallifrey Tokyo Godzilla Jumandi Williamsonsson Popigai Itlido Rehesesus Americümiüm Tunguska Metalloid Compressive Albuquérqué Vredefort stop attempting to take the moral high ground, as previous statements from your previous identity have stated emphatically and repeatedly what the primary problem is with such attempts: that said high ground is sighted in by someone else's artillery, and that strawman targets make for wonderful explosions of hay when the shells land.
I'm not taking the moral high ground. I'm quite firmly entrenched, thank you.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Firmly entrenched, yes. Where
Firmly entrenched, yes. Where exactly, well that's worth arguing. Shadow, english IS like that. If anybody can get people to use a word long enough, the word is valid. There are many words I don't like - selife, tweet, sexting - but they're apparently valid. And if you decide to argue that they describe things more accurately, that echoes straight back to the pronouns you dislike. They are undeniably more specific than using singular they. I personally don't care to use any of the non-gendered pronouns. I find them to be clumsy to apply and distracting to read. Instead I use singular they as necessary. But if those words end up in common use, I'm not going to try and fight against them. Because hey, I didn't like using the word "toonie" when that first popped up, now I use it every day.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Yo know you guys are really
Yo know you guys are really easily baited and drawn into long pointless arguments about subjects only transitively connected to the original post
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
So? If people keep a level
So? If people keep a level head, that's part of the fun of forums.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
I remain baffled by the
I remain baffled by the entire outrage over the words other's use. Don't associate with people who's ideas upset you. Remaining entrenched over it and fighting an unnecessary battle seems wasteful. EDIT: On the other hand I have been wasting loads of time trying to defend the exhuman faction and argue against another person's definition and use of it, so I suppose we're all guilty of irrational behavior sometimes.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Ganymede can into space!
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
When one speaks of rationality as a capability, one generally refers to the ability to decide on a course of action to further a set of values, each with a different "weight" - some are granted greater importance than others. When one then seeks to enhance the capability of rational decision making, one has two options; either one attempts to improve one’s ability to compare different courses of action, nominally referred to as intelligence or wisdom, or one can attempt to alter one's values. The example I gave was an exhuman who sought the latter – not realizing that all values are inherently irrational.
Minor nitpick: I personally always refer to moral axioms and utility functions as a-rational. They are not rational, but neither are they irrational.
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
For a more nuanced example; I dislike curry. I like the taste, but the pain from the spice is simply too much for me. Let's say I alter my values in order to like curry – either increasing the value I grant to flavour or decreasing my aversion to pain. It works great... but now I'm associating a pleasurable experience with pain, and that may well carry over to other aspects of my life. And my first alteration worked really well, so how about I do that again for, let's say piercings... and 6 months later I'm standing outside your house with nails in my head and a puzzle box in my hand... “We have such Sights to show you...”
Well, we already have sadomasochists walking around. But even those very few who lack any kind of moral compass (since we're removing all values except the algophilia that small minority is the most relevant comparison) know that they can't just walk around torturing unwilling people for kicks. The ones that do torture unwilling people for kicks are dumb, and they end up in jail. Our hypothetical sadomasochist exhuman would be constrained by the same factors that constrain amoral sadomasochists in our society. There are enough kinky scum types around to make risking extermination unnecessary.
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Not necessarily. As I said above, we our decisions are based on the weighting of values, and should the the drive to penetrate precious torsos assume primacy, then it would be perfectly rational for the exhuman act on that desire, even to the exclusion of others up to and including self-preservation.
But self-preservation is a necessary secondary value that follow from pretty much any primary utility function. You can't penetrate torsos if you're dead.
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
So it seems to me these Out'sters are pretty much what you would describe as exhumans, but they explicitly aren't, because they aren't threatening.
MAD Crab wrote:
Excellent. We now have canonical terms for the people who screw with their brains and don't end up attempting to eat all visitors. /thread
The problem with using "out'ster" as a word meaning "like an exhuman, but not violent" is that the word simply does not mean that: "Linked only by their remote locations in the Oort Cloud rather than a common social construct or political system, the out’sters are a loose association of habitats, clusters, and swarms. Little is known about them, as they avoid communication and interaction even with the handful of scientific outposts and research stations in the Oort Cloud." So yeah. The exoglots are not brinkers, and they are not out'sters.
bibliophile20 wrote:
[color=orange]And, finally, Alkahest, I'm going to politely ask that you stop it with the "It belongs on Ganymede!" thing. It adds nothing to the conversation, it is an attempt to Godwin-by-proxy, and all it does is inflame tempers and mock people. It isn't an argument or debate--it is a way of destroying arguments and debates and replacing them with anger and irritation.[/color]
Aww, but I made a demotivator and everything. But I guess I'm the only one seeing the funniness in it. In my defense, I have a horrible sense of humor.
bibliophile20 wrote:
[color=orange]As part of that request, I will also note that you have a strong sense of sarcasm and I've noticed that your own first reaction to anything you disagree with is to mock it, typically with a very biting edge. There is a time and place for that, so I'm going to politely ask if you can rein in that reaction in the future, so that you can unleash the sarcasm for when it is most called for. But doing that constantly is just going to result in flames and locked threads, so save it for when you really need to bring the hammer down. Fair?[/color]
Look at my pig's face. Does that look like a non-sarcastic pig face to you? And guys, remember when this thread was about space bugs and not... whatever it's about now?
President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer
Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer Ämandö Honoriffic Assassin Joyceelee Nuhudson Vredefort Üraniüm Diaeresis Manhattan Chesapeake Jimberlee California Altano Behferbusee Ei'gygytgyn Canadiä Excelsior Shachedar Picante McCormic Morokweng Sunkimsto Optimus Marconi Edisonsen Gallifrey Tokyo Godzilla Jumandi Williamsonsson Popigai Itlido Rehesesus Americümiüm Tunguska Metalloid Compressive Albuquérqué Vredefort wrote:
As for the difference between insisting that my proper noun is the only form of acceptable reference to me, and "xe," the difference is only one of scale. It's still someone who has decided that the standard pronouns are not acceptable to use in reference to them, and demanding that their preference be used. Language does not work that way.
Do you then see no meaningful difference between saying "You have to wear a badge inside this building" and "You have to carry around a four-foot cardboard sign with your name and clearance level on it inside this building"? Because sometimes scale actually matters. "Ze" is no more inconvenient than "He". "Chicxulub Dominicé Calcifer Ämandö Honoriffic Assassin Joyceelee Nuhudson Vredefort Üraniüm Diaeresis Manhattan Chesapeake Jimberlee California Altano Behferbusee Ei'gygytgyn Canadiä Excelsior Shachedar Picante McCormic Morokweng Sunkimsto Optimus Marconi Edisonsen Gallifrey Tokyo Godzilla Jumandi Williamsonsson Popigai Itlido Rehesesus Americümiüm Tunguska Metalloid Compressive Albuquérqué Vredefort" is a good deal more inconvenient than "He".
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Alkahest wrote:bibliophile20
Alkahest wrote:
bibliophile20 wrote:
[color=orange]And, finally, Alkahest, I'm going to politely ask that you stop it with the "It belongs on Ganymede!" thing. It adds nothing to the conversation, it is an attempt to Godwin-by-proxy, and all it does is inflame tempers and mock people. It isn't an argument or debate--it is a way of destroying arguments and debates and replacing them with anger and irritation.[/color]
Aww, but I made a demotivator and everything. But I guess I'm the only one seeing the funniness in it. In my defense, I have a horrible sense of humor.
I made it my work desktop background, I thought it was funny. Even though it is inappropriate for the forums, which is fair I guess.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
"You are about to become what all men should fear..."
Alkahest wrote:
Minor nitpick: I personally always refer to moral axioms and utility functions as a-rational. They are not rational, but neither are they irrational.
I personally agree with you. My spellchecker however does not.
Alkahest wrote:
The ones that do torture unwilling people for kicks are dumb, and they end up in jail. Our hypothetical sadomasochist exhuman would be constrained by the same factors that constrain amoral sadomasochists in our society.
A small, depressing correction; those who torture the unwilling and get caughtend up in jail. It is an unfortunate likelihood that those who are intelligent enough simply do not get caught. What with the vast distances and isolation involved in EP, a socio/psychopath could prey on isolated ships with relative ease and low risk, especially if they happen to possess exhuman capabilities.
Alkahest wrote:
But self-preservation is a necessary secondary value that follow from pretty much any primary utility function. You can't penetrate torsos if you're dead.
No, but it may be worth the risk of death, or worth an inevitable death after the fact. The possibility of uploading, backups and so forth actually reduce the effect of death as a deterrent.
Alkahest wrote:
The problem with using "out'ster" as a word meaning "like an exhuman, but not violent" is that the word simply does not mean that...
Wrong end of the stick. Out'ster doesn't mean non-violent exhuman, exhuman means violent/radical/dangerous technoprogressive.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Kremlin K.O.A. Kremlin K.O.A.'s picture
Alkahest wrote:Freedom Geek
Alkahest wrote:
Freedom Geek wrote:
Obviously not every different value system of values is going to be hostile. But if one is then they can be horrifying to an absurd degree. Oh look - they've made off with a copy of the Glitch Simulspace data and 10000 forks of every one of those people is undergoing something we would call torture but the exhuman thinks is a good thing due to an emotion only he possess that he called 'zorgloth' at 60 times normal speed in sites throughout the oort cloud that might take months to track down and stop.
This kind of thinking is very human, and very problematic. Assuming that minds different from yourself are possessed by some alien form of evil and that they are intent on murder and torture and other nasty things is a behavior our species has indulged in a long time. You can see the result of the "Inscrutable Oriental" in the Yellow Peril panic, or the result of the "Bestial Negro" in anti-miscegenation laws. I have a hard time seeing any intelligent mind actually being unable to comprehend the goals and values of other minds, if given enough data. And any mind that wishes to survive will learn the strategies of negotiation, compromise and dialogue.
How certain are you of your mind's capabilities? Is it something you would like to test? After all, my list of diagnosed mental conditions is significant enough tat I can be a template for an 'alien mindset.' If you want to test it, hit me up in a PM and you can ask me behavioral questions. See if you can comprehend my inner thought processes.
Alkahest wrote:
(Is there an Eclipse Phase variant of Godwin's law? "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Jovian Republic approaches 1.")
Alkahest's Law. I mean this with no disrespect. But since EP discussions are the point of this board, and you suggested the law, it gets named after you as per internet tradition dating back to the 80s and 90s. Also, for another take on what Exhumans are, I hava paraphrased an old Funcom ad.
"Paraphrased and edited Funcom ad" wrote:
It's all about progress. Grabbing it, keeping it, using it. Progress is our currency. Our DNA. Our god. We control the system. We provide the blueprint and we give the instructions. We're the people in grainy photos on martian hills. We're the shadowy faces in foggr valleys and darkened corridors. We're right here, hiding in plain sight, changing ourselves for the better. Forking, resleeving, singularity, these are our stock in trade. We work the magic of the self replicating infomorph. We shake down hypercapitalists and negotiate with extropians. We have stocks in Venus, and compromising photos of Factors. We use any means necessary regardless of the cost because the universe is a bad place, and you can either do or get done. We're the Exhumans, and we're not done.
Thoughts guys?
Justin Alexander Justin Alexander's picture
So, to sum up the thread:
So, to sum up the thread: Position 1: Nazis are evil because they want a fascist, racist, genocidal government. Position 2: What about Nazis that weren't fascist, racist, and/or genocidal? Position 1: Then they wouldn't be Nazis. Position 2: But what if they were? Position 1: But they're not. Repeat ad nauseum. The exhuman faction in Eclipse Phase is literally defined as a group seeking to emulate the genocide of the Fall; place themselves in a "top-of-the-food-chain" position over dominance over transhumanity; absorb themselves in a super-consciousness with TITANs/Exsurgents; and/or "declare war on their former species" due to their "extreme loathing for inferior transhumanity". What about singularity seekers or mind-editors or morph-modifiers or those who seek to be super-smart or experiment with alternative social structures or engage in extreme genetic modifications and pharmaceutical treatments without being genocidal maniacs seeking to emulate the abominations of the Exsurgents? Those would be people who aren't exhumans. By definition. And there are lots and lots and lots of examples of people like that in the EP universe who aren't described as exhumans.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Was it really necessary to
Was it really necessary to dredge this flame-tastic topic back up almost a fortnight after the last on-topic post? I mean, you're agreeing with me, and I'd still rather let this dog lie.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Well... they are a faction in
Well... they are a faction in the book, unlike an Exsurgent faction (beyond the "safe" Watts-McLeod Asyncs) so... I am going to have to disagree Justin Alexander. The Jovians were awfully dispicable until Rimward opened them up. Plus the Exoglots are clearly exhuman but really kind of chill. EDIT: the book being Transhuman.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
As the bowl of petunias once said...
Oh no not again. I wouldn't post anything, except...
uwtartarus wrote:
an Exsurgent faction
Blarg? Exsurgent isn't a faction, it's mind-altering plague. It'd be like saying that someone's political affiliation is "Brain Cancer". The exoglots have already been addressed.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Jaberwo Jaberwo's picture
Brain Cancer Party
When we are elected everyone will have cheap access to his daily dose of ionizing radiation applied directly to the head! Deadly diseases are a human right! Why choose the lesser evil? Vote Brain Cancer!
Killebrew Killebrew's picture
Just to point out, there are
Just to point out, there are a couple of things that make it seem to me that exhuman(ism?) isn't simply a term meaning they are violent and hellbent on the destruction of all humanity or the idea of such; all these are from Transhuman. 1: +Exhumanism is a listed Brinker motivation on page 24 of Transhuman, admittedly so is +Bioconservatism 2: Exhuman is also a listed faction on page 81 of Transhuman and has faction packages on page 24 as well. The wording under the faction listing of page 81 is: -------------------------------------------------------- Humanity is weak, and you intend to elevate your body and mind to a superior state of existence. You embrace new and developing technologies, no matter how dangerous and untested, to perfect your physical form and upgrade your mind. You intend to survive and dominate, no matter the cost. -------------------------------------------------------- Domination does not necessarily have to be done through killing and physical force. Could also be through extreme technological advancements and discoveries over transhumanity or similar means.
---
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
what Killebrew said
What Killebrew said! The only difference between exhumans and ultimates is that the ultimates have a regressive urge to maintain the human form. Exhumans are just extreme mental and physical experimenters. Some bad and some benign.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
XenoDragoness XenoDragoness's picture
Someone say Exhuman? I also
Someone say Exhuman? I also heard tea and cookies.
[x-rep +3]
Undocking Undocking's picture
uwtartarus wrote:What
uwtartarus wrote:
What Killebrew said! The only difference between exhumans and ultimates is that the ultimates have a regressive urge to maintain the human form.
Well, Ultimates are in a different faction than exhumans. Exhumans are a posthuman faction who wish to diverge from transhumanity. Ultimates are definitely transhumans, but have spartan, ubermensch ideal of intrinsic worth and have decided to take the eugenic future of transhumanity into their own hands.
uwtartarus wrote:
Exhumans are just extreme mental and physical experimenters. Some bad and some benign.
Refering to the metamorphisis of an ego as a science experiment may be taken the wrong way.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Well, yes, they are different
Well, yes, they are different factions, but Brinkers, Ringers, and Out'sters are all seperate factions as well, but they have some things in common, ya? All I am saying is that Exhumans are about as aggressive as Ultimates in their whole "I intend to be the best" competitive mentality. The defining difference between the Ultimates and Exhumans being the human form. Ultimates cherish it, so much that they reinvented the wheel with the Remade, while the Exhumans reject it.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Libertad Libertad's picture
The thing with exhumans (as
The thing with exhumans (as they're portrayed in the books) are that they're not the types who just hang out in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Clouds to be left alone. A lot of them hate transhumanity as unworthy, view them as weak, and regularly plot ways to harm them. Discounting those things, many exhumans view the TITANs as something to strive towards, in some cases going so far as to try and find their remnants and strains of the ex-surgent virus "to be more like them." So even if these exhumans don't hate transhumans and just want to "seek the singularity," they're doing much worse than walking into the lion's den. They're walking into a nuclear power plant without a HAZMAT suit and venturing back out into town to infect others with radiation poisoning. Whereas the Ultimates are also all about self-improvement, many of them realize just how dangerous the TITANs are, and aren't keen on losing their free will and sense of self to some massive genocidal supercomputer. It is understandable why many people in the setting would hate and fear them.
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Erdrick/anarc_userbar.jpg[/img] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." ~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Libertad wrote:The thing with
Libertad wrote:
The thing with exhumans (as they're portrayed in the books) are that they're not the types who just hang out in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Clouds to be left alone. A lot of them hate transhumanity as unworthy, view them as weak, and regularly plot ways to harm them. Discounting those things, many exhumans view the TITANs as something to strive towards, in some cases going so far as to try and find their remnants and strains of the ex-surgent virus "to be more like them." So even if these exhumans don't hate transhumans and just want to "seek the singularity," they're doing much worse than walking into the lion's den. They're walking into a nuclear power plant without a HAZMAT suit and venturing back out into town to infect others with radiation poisoning. Whereas the Ultimates are also all about self-improvement, many of them realize just how dangerous the TITANs are, and aren't keen on losing their free will and sense of self to some massive genocidal supercomputer. It is understandable why many people in the setting would hate and fear them.
You are describing Exsurgents (infect others!) and Singularity Seekers (literally "seek the singularity"). The exhumans are like "We Come to Probe You" in the Stars Our Destination scum swarm (coexisting with a scum swarm, so hostile), or the Exoglots (living in Locus, making weird art, being insular but well-behaved). Exhumans in the core are bad guys, but Jovians in the core were little more than bastards on the opposite end of the scale. But Rimward says "oh, nah, they're nuanced" and in Transhuman, Exhumans are a faction, thus (assumably) there are Exhuman Sentinels.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
It never ends...
Urg, I thought this thread had been beaten to death, but apparently it has medimachines.
uwtartarus wrote:
The exhumans are like "We Come to Probe You" in the Stars Our Destination scum swarm (coexisting with a scum swarm, so hostile), or the Exoglots (living in Locus, making weird art, being insular but well-behaved).
In The Stars Our Destination, it says: "More than one distressed ship has mistaken the Probe crew’s extremely modified biomorphs for exsurgents or exhumans when they arrived to assist." If they can be mistaken for exhumans, then they are not exhumans. The section on exoglots is similar; people can't tell if they're exhumans or not. Being a chitinous creature that dwells in the darkness between the worlds is not a sign of being an Exhuman, rather it's being a transhuman, perhaps with the "+Morphological Freedom" motivation. You can have Exhuman sentinels, just like you can have Singularity Seeker Sentinels. Just don't expect them to be nice, or friendly.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
ASingleCheesecake ASingleCheesecake's picture
My impression of the
My impression of the distinction between Exhumans and Out'sters is that it's similar to the distinction between, say, terrorists and freedom fighters: It tells a you lot about who's doing the labeling and where they stand in relation, and at least a bit about the actual behavior of the insurgents in question. The key distinction AFAICT is that with Exhumans as such, the things they want to do and the goals they pursue are horrible. Maybe x-risk horrible, if you leave them alone long enough. And maybe not *unintentionally* x-risk horrible either. But even if it's not x-risky, it's nasty. Thinking humanity needs to be perfected makes you an Ultimate, maybe. Thinking it's of no particular special value and diving off the deep end of morphological and psychosurgical mods in an attempt to shed it makes you an Out'ster. Not liking or wanting to be around them at all makes you a Brinker. Trying to get as far as possible from them makes you an isolate. Thinking it's a doomed pattern and should be redeemed by embracing radical change makes you a Singularity Seeker. Thinking that all of the above sound like they'd be good for dinner, or that they're patently inferior beings standing in the way of your own journey toward perfection who should all be destroyed, or bearing them no special ill will but simply wanting to use the atoms they're made of for other things (and not really being up on the whole informed consent side of that)? That's exhuman territory... Basically when the Jovians, Ultimates and Scum can all agree that you're into some fucked-up shit and really kinda scary, you're probably at least pushing into that territory. Just being weird and different is necessary but not sufficient -- you also have be genuinely frightening and kinda horrible. The sort of person who can look at the actions of a marauding Exsurgent and view them as the *competition* rather than anything existentially worrying.
I've never had the hand of witty signatures. Just assume what I wrote here is suitably pithy and/or smarmy.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
There is a core problem with
There is a core problem with the ideas of Exhumans though. If you take one of the main thinkers on Friendly AI Eliezer Yudkowsky, he's stated several times that he believes that his early ideas of just making smart AIs would have wiped out humanity if someone had succeeded. If you make something that is sufficiently smart and advanced it will be able to dictate how the future unfolds. And if it doesn't care about us and the same things we care about it, that's an x-risk. Heck, even a few details about HOW it cares about us could spell disaster, like how the classic goal of "Maximize human happiness" is realized by putting everyone's brain in a jar with direct neural stimulation of the pleasure centers. Just like Strong AI, an Exhuman that succeeds will have to sufficiently Friendly, and Friendly in just the right way, and that's a tall order. I mean, look at us humans. For everyone like Alkahest who treats lesser species equally, there's at least thousands of us who will gladly enslave, oppress and murder entire species just because we like the taste of meat over beans and we prefer shopping malls and parking lots to forests.
ASingleCheesecake ASingleCheesecake's picture
Oh, I'm familiar with
Oh, I'm familiar with Yudkowsky and his general wingbattery -- my reading of Eclipse Phase sorta engages with that stuff in a complicated manner, because I don't share Yudkowsky's stated views, many of which are more like his personal epistles for why you should fund his organization. You don't have to be *smarter* to dictate the shape of the local future -- just better-armed and more willing to use those weapons. Or able to create corner the market on some limiting resource near the bottom of the supply chain. Or capable of enduring in a marginal pocket for sufficiently long periods of time that you outlast all other contenders. Or...any number of other stable strategies for long-term propagation. Yudkowsky's progress-binge view of time and change is kind of silly, really. Still, you're right that this shit is pretty influential on Eclipse Phase? But basically I don't see exhumans as necessarily x-risky because of what they *are*, more because of what they're doing/trying to do.
I've never had the hand of witty signatures. Just assume what I wrote here is suitably pithy and/or smarmy.
Chrontius Chrontius's picture
So what do you call someone...
So, when I found the Agency character generator, I decided to roll up a trio of NPCs for my game (which may not happen, but...) and in so doing cobbled together an interesting character based on a random person I rolled up. What do you call someone who was born human, evacuated Earth in that state, lives as a mechanical dinosaur, and gets along with other people well enough to hold down tenure? Despite having the "uplift: feral" template, which I've decided he acquired later in life through a combination of (careful) psychosurgery and a genuine focused attempt to integrate into that culture? Relevant prior art: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/13171#comment-13171
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
You call them Transhuman, generally
It sounds like an interesting character, but it's a far cry from an exhuman, which is what this thread was about.
Chrontius Chrontius's picture
I'm also imagining the first
I'm also imagining the first (and, so far, only) time he ever ate anyone involving the other kind of exhuman -- one who's trying to prove his apex-predator status, and one who's quietly comfortable in this knowledge and sees no need to prove it. Sort of a case of "real men wear pink". ;)
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
I think 'brinker' is the
I think 'brinker' is the wrong term here, but I might actually agree with the judgement against exhumans. The appropriate term for someone who alters their body and mind to the point of no longer really relating with humans anymore but preserving sanity is, I think, 'Posthuman'. 'Exhuman' seems to imply a shortcut that sacrifes sanity in the pursuit of progress. The 'We've Come to Probe You' people are dancing on that line, I think.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
ASingleCheesecake wrote:Oh, I
ASingleCheesecake wrote:
Oh, I'm familiar with Yudkowsky and his general wingbattery -- my reading of Eclipse Phase sorta engages with that stuff in a complicated manner, because I don't share Yudkowsky's stated views, many of which are more like his personal epistles for why you should fund his organization. You don't have to be *smarter* to dictate the shape of the local future -- just better-armed and more willing to use those weapons. Or able to create corner the market on some limiting resource near the bottom of the supply chain. Or capable of enduring in a marginal pocket for sufficiently long periods of time that you outlast all other contenders. Or...any number of other stable strategies for long-term propagation. Yudkowsky's progress-binge view of time and change is kind of silly, really.
The way I see it, the point is that yes, ultimately the way you exert power is by being better armed or cornering the market, but it is very, very difficult to acquire such superiority on a level playing field. However, given sufficiently high intelligence an AI could have the potential to vastly outplay all other humans. The risk of a human or human organization being able to achieve world dominance is practically zero, but a self-improving AI is another case entirely. Almost equally bad, it could be very difficult to spot, and they typical stopgaps of human psychology and deterrence might not apply. If a country started to stockpile weapons, it would be noticed. Other countries would stockpile too so there would be no expected gain for attempting to conquer the world - at best you'd end up in a mutually assured destruction scenario. It's not rational, and while some humans are insane it is very difficult to get a large organization of many people to all act against their own self interest. By comparison, an out of control, self-improving AI with unfriendly goals could arise spontaneously or accidently. An company or military AI, a hacker botnet, or whatever could evolve into something like that. The simple example is the AI going "my goal is X, if I try to maximize my efforts at achieving X my masters will stop me, so I will hide my efforts from them". And next thing you know, the AI has spread itself everywhere, taken over the world and is turning people into paper clips. It's a bit too simplistic, but there's been a lot of work on this and afaik no one has any idea of how to control emergent behavior.
ASingleCheesecake wrote:
But basically I don't see exhumans as necessarily x-risky because of what they *are*, more because of what they're doing/trying to do.
I don't agree with that. It is about what you *are* more than what you're trying to do. Exhumans are trying to get on the exponential self-improvement bandwagon, and they're changing their psychology which could give them unfriendly goals. That places them in practically the exact same x-risk group as seed AIs, and I see that as the main reason they're universally feared in Eclipse Phase. By comparison, the Jovians, Ultimates, Planetary Consortium and pretty much every criminal organization are doing/trying to do/would like to do really bad things - take over the solar system, corner the market, achieve military superiority, etc. - but they're not x-threats because there's no risk of them going exponential and they can be deterred.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
I think you are mixing up
I think you are mixing up Exhumans with Singularity Seekers. Though they are not mutually exclusive, to be an Exhuman requires a desire for radical and non-human-like morphological and psychologic states. Abandon their humanity. Pursue the sort of TITAN level of self-improvement is one way to fast track that goal, but chasing the Singularity is a fast track to every goal at a price most are unwilling to pay. I won't argue against the notion that Exhumans are probably more likely than bioconservatives and Precautionists to utilize this dangerous path to meet their goals, but Singularity Seekers and Exhumans are not the same thing.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
From core pg 80Quote:
From core pg 80
Quote:
EXHUMANS Memes: Adaptability, Hyper-Evolution, Singularity Main Stations: Unknown More than any other faction, exhumans seek to take the capabilities of self-modification to the absolute limit and become posthuman. Typical exhumans see the Fall as either a missed evolutionary opportunity and/or as an example of transhumanity’s inferiority and unworthiness. Though specific ideologies differ between exhuman packs, as a whole they seek to self- evolve to a more advanced state of being.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
And yet both Singularity
And yet both Singularity Seekers and Exhumans are a character option, but other than the Lost and other Psi users, Exsurgents are not a character option. Exhumans are as inherently dangerous as the Ultimates or any Brinker groups. In fact the "We Come to Probe You" and the Exoglots are two examples of Exhumans that are tolerated despite their radical beliefs.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote: Exhumans
uwtartarus wrote:
Exhumans are as inherently dangerous as the Ultimates or any Brinker groups.
I don't see the Ultimates as dangerous at all. Brinkers might or might not be, but there's little in their core ideology that makes them dangerous. Exhumans have extreme self-improvement as a core part of their ideology. In EP, this is a very dangerous trait that is universally feared, much more than simple aspirations of political or military dominance. It's a bit like the difference between Russia and a fanatical terrorist sect that dabbles in bioweapons.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
The only difference between
The only difference between the Ultimates philosophy of ruthless perfection of self, warrior-ascericism, and the Exhumans' some-what looser goal of self improvement is that the Ultimates fetishize the human form. The Ultimates are secretive and exclusionary, luring the rest of transhumanity into a false sense of control by serving as mercenaries (though like the Vandal ancillaries of Rome, can the Hypercorps really trust the Ultimates?), all the while they disregard the value of transhuman life with their extreme "survival of the fittest" attitude. They enslave indentures to use as target practice. That seems as awful and problematic as the general exhuman philosophy of "improve or perish."
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I'm not saying the Ultimates
I'm not saying the Ultimates are nice, at all. I'm saying that they're very unlike to trigger another Fall-like event. The exhumans' efforts on the other hand are at a high risk of doing so.
Huntertalon Huntertalon's picture
I figure there's not much
I figure there's not much physical difference between an Exhuman and a transhuman with lots of augments. I think the real difference is their ideals. Exhumans take sociopathic Übermensch philosophy to an fanatical extreme, and don't tolerate what they see as inferior beings. Kinda like high-tech Nazis.

Pages