Exhumans: What's so bad about them?

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Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Exhumans: What's so bad about them?

I think Posthuman Studios has done a phenomenal job at presenting transhumanism in a level-headed fashion. In many other settings, the Jovians would be the good guys, and anyone even thinking of modifying their bodies and minds would be portrayed as the second coming of Khan Noonien Singh. But in Eclipse Phase, a dedication to morphological freedom is a natural extension of other progressive values.

So why are the exhumans bad guys?

We're told that they are "universally mistrusted by many, and for good reason". The reason given is that they use "extreme" and "untested" modifications, and that this results in them often becoming "insane" or "alien".

Isn't that pretty much the way a typical Jovian would describe a typical member of the transhuman community? The CBEAT would no doubt call most of the stuff a respectable Autonomist puts in her body "extreme", and the thing about testing is that every technology is untested at some point. As for "insane" or "alien", well, that's all in the eye of the beholder.

The fears about exhumans seem very similar to the fears modern biocons express about transhumanism: Surely, those sinister transhumanists only want to become soulless monsters in order to murder and enslave those who still hold on to their humanity? If they weren't evil Frankenfreaks, why would they even want to modify themselves?

Pff. Those attitudes belong on Ganymede.

No doubt there are some violent exhumans who give the whole bunch a bad reputation, but are they really more representative of their kind than Osama bin Laden is to Muslims, or Anders Behring Breivik is to Norwegians?

If we take the fundamental tenets of "exhumanism" to be an inclination toward "extreme" modification and a lack of nostalgia about one's "humanity", I can see exhumans coming in many different forms, not only physically and mentally but also ideologically.

My own "homebrew" way to explain possible exhuman attitudes is to imagine a two-dimensional grid with sixteen different boxes, each representing an intersection of the social axis and the goal axis. To elaborate:

Social axis

Stirnerites: Stereotypical egocentrics, Stirnerites care only about Número Uno. When they work with others, they only do so as long as it benefits themselves, and they would gladly backstab anyone if they saw any gain in it. Luckily, most prefer to just grab some dirt ball in the Oort cloud and pursue whatever goals they have in solitude.

Amish: This name is not meant to imply any kind of technophobia, rather the opposite, but much like their namesakes they prefer to keep to themselves. Whether surrounded by "normal" transhumanity or hundreds of AU away from the nearest gas station, their insular nature leads them to form their own communities and often even their own languages. The Exoglots, from Rimward, are probably Amish.

Universalists: These guys have found a superior way of living, and they would just love to tell you all about it. Unlike Stirnerites and Amish, Universalists not only welcome others to join them but see it as their personal mission to convert others. At their least offensive, they are simply wide-eyed hippies or the AF version of Jehovah's Witnesses. On the other end, they go full-on Borg, seeking to assimilate new members by force.

Kramers: As long as there have been huts, there have been weird neighbors. Okay, so you're a hyper-intelligent arachnid designed to outlast the Sun. Does that mean you can't hang out with your transhuman pals, talking about the latest game and knocking back some ethanol? You feel just like one of the guys, and in an era when bipedal apes can befriend computer programs and cephalopods, do exhumans really have to be left out in the cold? And if one of your buddies express an interest in getting a less archaic body, hey, the more, the merrier!

Goal axis

Hedonists: This group believes that the fundamental human frailty one should escape is our chronic inability to ever find true, lasting happiness. Of course, they have no interest in simply becoming dumb wireheads, and most try to find a way to experience never-ending bliss while still being productive.

Roaches: Roaches are only interested in one thing, and that is to keep living. The ultimate survivalists, these guys attempt to modify themselves into a form of life that will outlast alien invasions, supernovas, rogue super-AIs and God knows what else.

Superbrains: More or less identical to singularity seekers, the superbrains are only interested in becoming smarter. Most of them are infomorphs, as meat-brains are poorly optimized for thinking, but their one uniting characteristic is an exaltation of intelligence.

Pantropists: Pantropists are dedicated to spreading throughout the universe, and they believe that this expansion is best achieved by changing one's self to the environment, rather than the other way around. They modify both their bodies and their minds to be able to survive and flourish in an immense variety of different environments, from the interstellar dark to the molten innards of geologically active moons.

Now, of course, the above are only broad archetypes. Nothing says that you can't value both intelligence and happiness, and being selfish doesn't mean you have to either isolate yourself or harvest organs from everyone you see.

Anyway, I think I derailed my own thread in the OP, which is a new record for me. In any case, my main point is that I see little reason for why exhumans have to be assholes, especially since I can imagine a wide variety of different philosophies among them. But what do you guys think?

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
You want to know what's so

You want to know what's so bad about Exhumans?

It's simple. Exhumans have deliberately pushed past what it is to be human; they are no longer human, they are ex-human. That, in and of itself, does not an Exhuman make, though.

An Exhuman is someone who has rejected all vestiges of humanity, and thinks that nobody else should have them, either. Exhumans either want to destroy all humanity, or assimilate it, Borg style.

Anything else is just a Brinker.

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Alkahest Alkahest's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:An

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
An Exhuman is someone who has rejected all vestiges of humanity, and thinks that nobody else should have them, either. Exhumans either want to destroy all humanity, or assimilate it, Borg style.

Implicit in this statement is the idea that the only thing keeping us from butchering our fellow humans is our humanity. I'm sure most mercurials would disagree.

I'm smarter than all non-human animals on Earth (unless there's some really intelligent chimp our there planning an uprising or something), and I have goals and values completely alien to a lizard or a bird. That doesn't mean I murder animals for my own amusement. Why should exhumans want to kill humans just because they have personally gotten rid of their humanity? It doesn't make any sense.

This logic of "no longer human = genocidal maniac" seems more like something a Jovian would think. If you're transhuman, you're no longer human, right? So why don't we see hordes of transhumans descending to murder every flat on Ganymede?

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
It's a philosophical more

It's a philosophical more than physical matter. I believe uplifts and infomorphs are still considered transhuman (the former being welcomed into the family as it were, to an extent). I know even though my own Rocky is an alien flying squirrel, he's still a transhuman.

The danger of the exhuman is an exaggerated case of the ultimates or the jovians. You mentioned not murdering animals for amusement. Many humans used to do that. Food for thought.

Undocking Undocking's picture
The idea of exhumans becoming

The idea of exhumans becoming speciecidal is a very human one and reveals more about transhumanity as a whole than the exhumans. Why are alien first contact stories often invasion stories? Because whenever humans made first contact, it was often an invasion story. What did the Europeans do to the Native Americans?

I would classify the Synergists and other hive copyclans as exhuman. There are even a group of insectoid exhumans living in Locus (exoglots). They just fit in better than those who have the desire to become an apex predator on Skyhome or embrace the abyss and forget their human culture for their own.

Exhumans are alien—but not all of them keep their Terran tendencies of hyper-aggressive problem solving. Some of them evolve beyond it.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Urthdigger wrote:It's a

Urthdigger wrote:
It's a philosophical more than physical matter. I believe uplifts and infomorphs are still considered transhuman (the former being welcomed into the family as it were, to an extent). I know even though my own Rocky is an alien flying squirrel, he's still a transhuman.

That sounds neither philosophical nor physical to me; I'd call it political. Associating people and groups you like with your kin and those you don't like with not-your-kin is as old as thought. "Paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me".

Urthdigger wrote:
The danger of the exhuman is an exaggerated case of the ultimates or the jovians.

The Ultimates are obsessed with one vision of "perfection", and a highly parochial, anthropocentric one at that. Exhumans branch out in a myriad different directions. The Jovians? Those guys are the very opposite of exhuman! If anything, "normal" transhumans are more like the Jovians than the exhumans are.

Urthdigger wrote:
You mentioned not murdering animals for amusement. Many humans used to do that. Food for thought.

Well, I'm a vegan, and I very much doubt I would suddenly turn into Cruella de Vil just because I decided to become more than human.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Undocking wrote:The idea of

Undocking wrote:
The idea of exhumans becoming speciecidal is a very human one and reveals more about transhumanity as a whole than the exhumans. Why are alien first contact stories often invasion stories? Because whenever humans made first contact, it was often an invasion story. What did the Europeans do to the Native Americans?

Very true. It seems very much like projecting your own failings on others, "I can't allow others to become more powerful than me, because if I were more powerful than others, I would murder them all." Kind of like how some religious people say that you can't be moral without God, because they would steal and/or rape everything in sight if they thought they wouldn't be punished for it.

Undocking wrote:
I would classify the Synergists and other hive copyclans as exhuman. There are even a group of insectoid exhumans living in Locus (exoglots). They just fit in better than those who have the desire to become an apex predator on Skyhome or embrace the abyss and forget their human culture for their own.

Exactly. You can't categorize clearly ex-human individuals as "not exhumans" just because they don't fit the violent stereotype.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
I would add to the discussion

I would add to the discussion that for every ten or twenty peaceful, non-violent or generally just extremely exotic exhumans, there's one that is aggressive, that is genocidal, that is vicious and that does want to be the new apex predator--and, unfortunately for the peaceful experimentators, as a result of the violent and vicious ones, they all get painted with the same brush.

It's basic psychology--they're Other. They have made themselves into the Other, and the human mindset isn't really good at distinguishing gradations within Otherness without effort--effort that xenophobia, fear, tribalism, and prior bad experiences with the nastier representatives of the Exhumans will discourage people from engaging in (and that's how they'll be perceived as--representatives--even if they're the exceptions, rather than the rule); instead, they'll just lump them all in together as "Evil Other" and that's a license to exterminate.

And then, once the torch and pitchfork mob comes for the peaceful exhumans, they need to either fight back, whereupon their behavior will be taken as confirmation of their "hostility" and used as further justification for further attacks, or they'll be wiped out, reducing the numbers of peaceful exhumans in proportion to the hostile ones.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Exactly!

I've wondered the same thing.

For all of this setting's otherwise fantastic job at portraying forward thinking technologies, their seems to be an artificially maintained "glass ceiling" of mental and morph capability. Even in-universe, one of Firewall's goals seems to be the prevention of anyone breaking another Singularity barrier. Their justification is that it will be the TITANs all over again, but they can't know that! By the very nature of Singularity they can't. If the TITANs, or worse, show their ugly heads, I'd frankly feel safer having more than a few God-tier mega brains of our own.

As a game, I know their has to be a system for the player's to start off competent but limited. However, also as a game, they also level up, and isn't putting a restriction on their power against the very idea of transhumanism? This is something that made me remove my Firewall banner! A group that unfairly restricts individual capability is no better than the Consortium or Junta.

For an example of a setting with no such restriction, look at Orion's Arm. Some of the weakest of the Transapients make the TITANs look almost laughable, yet they are almost universally benevolent; the Archilects being compared, not without a degree of truth, to loving deities.

If you had to pick a personality to assign to God, you could do worse than your friendly neighbor or drinking buddy.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Oh, I totally understand why

Oh, I totally understand why the exhumans are perceived as bad guys by intolerant folk, what I don't understand is why they're portrayed that way in the books. Lots of people in-setting hate uplifts and AGIs, but those groups are still treated fairly by the source material.

Of course, one might take the Watsonian view that the books are written from a Firewall perspective, and Firewall agents are likely to mostly run into violent exhumans, which of course is likely to make them rather biased.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Yes with a "but!"

Maybe this is something that varies between GM and player as they interpret the setting, but wouldn't what classifies as "the other" be radically different by now?

Call me an idealist (because it's true) but I think by the time this setting rolls around and with everything that's happened in the timeline, many, if not all, would be willing to look past their repugnancy and try to understand the mind within the creature before them.

And for the ones that do choose to be zero-g cyborg sharks, just kill them! They made their choice. (Plus it's not like they'll stay dead for long in this setting.)

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
What's wrong with zero-g

What's wrong with zero-g cyborg sharks?

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
The Watsonian perspective

The Watsonian perspective makes sense; just like how the religions that are mentioned are those that are the most dangerous from an x-risk perspective, the exhumans mentioned are likewise going to be the most dangerous from an x-risk perspective. Firewall is essentially composed of self-appointed cops and spies, and, as such, just like real cops and spies, will have a skewed sampling bias towards seeing threats and threatening behaviors.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
I would have to disagree

Not human doesn't mean evil by itself. Arguably, transhumanism is already about distancing one's self from what they perceive are the weaknesses of mortal man. It only makes sense some might want to go "all the way."

I think Alkahest made a nice paradigm of potential characteristics that could be assigned to Ex-humans. They are not one thing, by their nature as different clades with the only defining commonality being "deliberately alien mind and body."

Perhaps some do think that what they have should be practiced by all, but that's not to say they'd be aggressive in their encouragement of it.

Look at Legion from Mass Effect! I could scarcely conjure a more alien mind on a ship full of aliens, but they are one of the most loyal and ethical crew members you have.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Nothing!

I have lots of friends who are cyborg sharks! ^_^' Really!

Hehe, in all seriousness I don't think there's anything wrong with such a morph. That actually sounds like one I'd like to try out. I was just trying to think of some kind of uber-predator and Xenomorphs from Alien were too obvious. XD

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Yeah, it's all about what an

Yeah, it's all about what an individual does, rather than what ze looks like or even how ze thinks. If someone tries to kill me to eat my flesh/harvest my bodily fluids/put my head on a stick, it doesn't matter if said someone is a creepy-looking space spider or a neotenic, I'll defend myself. But I can't just decide that all creepy-looking space spiders should die. Or all neotenics, for that matter.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Okay, you're an idealist. :)

Okay, you're an idealist. :)

"but wouldn't what classifies as "the other" be radically different by now?"

Yes. It's classified as "exhuman". Given that there's still racism, sexism and other aspects of bigotry rampant in the setting--clanking masses, racism against uplifts and AGIs, egos sleeved in male biomorphs having social advantages, etc--I find it not only plausible, but highly likely that most people are still willing to judge based on surface characteristics, and not withhold judgement until they "understand the mind within the creature before them." That's part of being human--even when you're transhuman. Your idealism and willingness to extend that understanding and empathy puts you in the minority within the setting's population.

And given that exhumans are one step beyond uplifts (not even human, don'tchaknow, but at least they think kinda like us), beyond AGIs (thinking computer programs? I say baby TITAN!), and beyond the clanking masses (yeah, I know that they started out human, but imagine what spending your life in a shell, unable to eat, drink or sleep would do to you and then tell me that they're still human), it's hardly a surprise that they're biased against by the "person on the street" (whose views are parenthetical above) in the setting.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
I think it says something

I think it says something about the community that we look at a setting where cephalopods fight for equal rights and the only human faction is Space North Korea, and we decide that the writers aren't treating the inhuman abominations who perform Frankensteinian experiments on their own bodies using forbidden technology fairly enough.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Yep. It certainly says

Yep. It certainly says something. What that something is, though, is perhaps a discussion for another thread. :)

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
What

It says that we see all forms of intelligence as worthy of life, and that we recongnize an utterly alien mind doesn't have to be a melevolent one.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
I'm going to play devil's

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment.

If you've read the Ender's Game books you may recall the concepts of Raman and Varelse that were thrown around. Raman are creatures of another species with whom meaningful communication is possible. Varelse are true aliens, with no hope of true communication or understanding. The trouble with Varelse is that you can never know if they will attack you at some point. They are truly unknowable, and coexistence is problematic at best. Certainly you will never be happy about it. In the EP setting, the TITANS may well be Varelse.

The exhumans are people intentionally moving in the direction of becoming Varelse as well. They are making it so that other transhumans simply cannot understand what is going on in their heads. Their actions are not predictable, and so yes they do pose a danger to others.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
I'm gonna call bullshit on

I'm gonna call bullshit on that distinction. An intelligent creature, no matter how alien, will always be constrained by the same rules of logic, necessity and survival that apply to us. The only true limit to meaningful communication is intelligence. I can't explain my motivations to an ant, and even a relatively intelligent animal like a dog will have trouble grasping the intentions behind my actions.

But an intelligent alien? We all live in the same universe. No matter how alien the mind, there will always be some common ground that makes communication possible, no matter how different our thoughts are, provided those thoughts originate in a rational brain.

If anything, I think most exhumans should be more predictable than typical humans. Let me explain.

Humans are naturally evolved bipedal plains apes. As a result of the blindness of evolution, we have a lot of stupid, irrational thoughts. Take for example the seemingly intelligent politician who would risk his career in order to stick his condom-wearing penis inside a female whose breasts are slightly larger than the average woman's, and displayed in a provocative fashion. How the hell does that make any sense? Or the neo-Nazi thug who risks going to jail in order to satisfy the urge to stomp on the head of a fellow human whose skin pigmentation is slightly different from the most common Northern European skin color. I'd classify that as "varelse" from my perspective, or at least "jävla tokstolle".

Now, let's look at an exhuman. What parts of his mind is he likely to remove? The one that tells him to pursue women with big tits? The one that tells him to assault brown people? Or the one that tells him that 2+2=4?

Exhumans want to leave human frailties behind. Well, those frailties are what makes us unpredictable, hateful, irrational animals. And what's worse, we're not even all unpredictable in the same way. Think that this human is going to behave in a certain way when he sees boobs? Think again, turns out he's gay! Think this human is going to behave in a certain way when confronted with a person with a different skin color? Turns out not all of us are racist dicks!

I really have trouble seeing how exhumans could be more unpredictable than humans. We have perfected irrationality into an art form.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Devil's advocate

Last I checked the OP was the one playing Devil's Advocate in the first place. XD

I do see your point though and I did read the book.

My rebuttal is that a zookeeper can never truly what goes on in the mind of the lions and tigers, but can still approach them with a calculated risk and still be relatively safe.

Now I'm not saying we treat Exhumans like mere beasts. God knows how the Uplift community would view that! My point is that a mind you can't know is still one you can interact with if you know what you're doing.

All in all, I say ere on the side of caution, but don't tip over the edge into "kill on site."

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Slight disagreement

I agree no two humans react in the exact same way to the same stimuli.

However I do beleive an Exhuman would only be just as, if not more unpredictable than even an augmented human mind.

The base brain no longer works the same as the one you and I have right now. A whole new array of neuro connections, if that's even what substitutes as the Ex-human's brain means wildly different reactions.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
All but the most suicidal

All but the most suicidal exhumans will attempt to modify their behavior in order to act more rationally. Acting rationally is simply a way to achieve your goals more easily, and I have a hard time seeing an exhuman not wanting to achieve zir goals. Rational minds are, generally, more predictable than irrational ones.

Can you give me an example of how and why an exhuman would be more unpredictable after ze has turned, well, ex-human than when ze was human?

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Alkahest wrote:I'm gonna call

Alkahest wrote:
I'm gonna call bullshit on that distinction. An intelligent creature, no matter how alien, will always be constrained by the same rules of logic, necessity and survival that apply to us. The only true limit to meaningful communication is intelligence. I can't explain my motivations to an ant, and even a relatively intelligent animal like a dog will have trouble grasping the intentions behind my actions.

But an intelligent alien? We all live in the same universe. No matter how alien the mind, there will always be some common ground that makes communication possible, no matter how different our thoughts are, provided those thoughts originate in a rational brain.

You just said it there.
An exhuman that worked an a pure game theory basis would be terrifying and horrible. It wouldn't care that you'd worked well together for five years, it would murder you if the equations said there would be a net benefit.

Or say the exhuman instead was super intelligent. Actually, this pushes straight into TITAN territory - like the ant, we don't understand why these intelligences do anything. Maybe they have good reasons! Maybe they really like hunting. Who the hell can know?

And why would all these exhumans change their minds in the same way? If that proto-exhuman really, really hates novacrabs he's not going to cut that part of his mind out. Hell, he'll probably baby it through any changes he makes. Again - who knows what the resulting exhuman is going to act like?

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
"Supergod" by Warren Ellis

First of all, Hell of a comic! Secondly, pretty much all of the gods in that have varying degrees of alien in them, either having become distanced from their humanity or not having it to begin with.

Their actions range from genocide, to the attempted preservation of humanity, sometimes by the same guy. I don't think "rationality" even entered some of their minds.

Really what made them dangerous wasn't their minds, it was their minds combined with their frightening levels of power.

Such a thing isn't "as much" of a problem in this setting where you are more likely to be such a being's equal or even greater in terms of raw power.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Faith?

You're right, who can know? And therefore who could pass judgment on anyone of them?

If someone wants to take that leap, we can't know what will happen. Only what we can do if the resulting life turns out to be hostile.

Personally, I don't beleive every Exhuman would be a threat nor would they ever be. But if they were, I would rather someone suffer a temp-death than take action against the life, than punish a potentially innocent and new life.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Agreeing with Steel Accord;

Steel Accord wrote:
I agree no two humans react in the exact same way to the same stimuli.

However I do beleive an Exhuman would only be just as, if not more unpredictable than even an augmented human mind.

The base brain no longer works the same as the one you and I have right now. A whole new array of neuro connections, if that's even what substitutes as the Ex-human's brain means wildly different reactions.

Agreeing with Steel Accord; differing cultural views alone make predicting the views and actions of other human beings difficult. Once you start excising and adding neural connections and adding and removing motivations, it becomes that much harder, especially on an individual level, to predict and understand the behavior of another entity. Heck, take smiling as an example. For humans, showing your teeth is a social behavior--we're laughing or showing pleasure. For dogs, wolves and chimps, it's a threat display. For another example, Rhesus monkeys (or I might be thinking of a different primate), which often stolen from the wild and sold as a pet, raises its arms and shows its teeth, and the humans think that it's cute, and will play with it, while it's trying to scare off what it perceives as a threat.

And while the most educated and xenophilliac members of any human community (a label which, after looking at this thread, would include a fair number of the individuals here) would take the time and effort to understand the inhuman motivations, needs and ideologies of exhumans and aliens, the individuals on the other end of the spectrum simply dismiss the need for that effort and classify them as "Other: Potential Threat", and will view any and all behavior as threatening and confirming their assumptions.

As a result, the only way to prevent that sort of behavior is to completely remove the human tendencies towards stereotyping, anthropomorphizing, surface trait identification, tribalism, psychological projection and all of those other traits that tend towards bigotry and the assignment of "Other"--at which point, you have a new group of exhumans, who might be peaceful... or might potentially look at their still-human precedents and logically realize that there is no way, given the psychological profiles of their precedents, that they can coexist long term and decide to strike first for their own self-preservation.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Why violence?

Who's to say such a being wouldn't come to that same conclusion and instead choose exile rather than having to kill in self-defense.

Look at the Geth. They fought back to preserve themselves, but when the war was over, they retreated into the Veil; content to live in peace and leave their creators alone.

They did not contact the Quarians afterward because they could not properly communicate their thoughts. It took the patience of Paragon Shepherd to, as we've been pointing out, listen with the hopes of understanding them.

"We wish to understand, not incite."

"All species have the right to self-determinate."

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Freedom Geek Freedom Geek's picture
The real danger of exhumans

The real danger of exhumans is inhuman patterns of thought. Or more specifically inhuman values.

No one cares if you sleeve in an obscenely inhuman morph like a Surya. And there are crazy freelance morph designers listed in the books and no one thinks of them as exhumans.

The mind is where things get dangerous. Transhumanity is keen on stuff like the +10 to cog given by a menton or savant. But presumably these augmentations had to be carefully tested to ensure they did not result in a change of personality or values. The brain is a complex system and if you don't carefully check your modifications then you could change the values people hold without even intending to. Look at the careful observation the synergists are under to ensure their values are compatible with the rest of humanity - how things like the fact they seemed to enjoy flying on the backs of those birdy things was seen as a good sign. Transhumanity is friendly with many inhuman beings but all of them were engineered to possess human like or at least human compatible value systems.

Humanity rests on a small island in the sea of possible value systems. Those value systems commonly held in 10 AF is a smaller subset still. And if you don't believe that your morality has some manner of great cosmic significance that any sufficiently intelligent being will work out then you're right to be worried about something powerful coming along with something wildly different.

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MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Steel, it's not that some

Steel, it's not that some exhumans wouldn't feel that way (although it's questionable if people would label them as exhumans at all, instead of just brinkers. That's been brought up before in this thread).

But to put this very bluntly, many of you think the Jovians should be nuked out of existence. What are you going to do about an exhuman colony that firmly believes that the safety of the group outweighs any consideration of personal liberty? And that's entirely within normal human mental bounds! Try and extend that further, to a truly incomprehensible value system. Do you think you'd like to work with a group that executes anybody wearing green on Fridays?

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
I liked that Transhuman

I liked that Transhuman included the Exhuman as a possible Faction, as I felt that they were unfairly stigmatized in the earlier books. They are just as offensive or dangerous as Jovians. People who subscribe to certain ideals whether 'progressive/foward' (exhumans/singularity seekers) or 'regressive/backwards' (hypercapitalists/bioconservatives) they can appear sort of strange and alien.

My personal experience with people of certain religions or ideologies is stained with my confusion on how a rational person can believe something like X, Y, or Z (which contradict my beliefs, which to me seem reasonable). Exhumans ought to be distrusted as any other group outside of your close friends or tribe. No more and no less.

What differentiates exhumans though is that the Faction requires taking Mental Disorders and Modified Behavior, which differentiates them from other Transhumans, who aren't so keen to experiment with their mind. I personally wouldn't mind altering parts of my mind, I would relish the opportunity to take drastic actions to improve myself.

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
No, I would not

First of all, I don't think the Jovians should be nuked. I think the assholes running the show should be overthrown, ideally BY the people they are oppressing, but that's neither here nor there.

I would not want to work with a being who kills people wearing green, but that just means I don't bring him to a pub come St. Patrick's day.

To say someone's, group or individual, value system is "incomphensible" is to deliberately set the bar of limitation on one's mind. If not in spirit, one can eventually learn such a group or person's typical rules and ethics.

As I said before though, it's the same risk a zookeeper has with a tiger they raised from birth. You don't know what will set them off, but co-existence IS possible if you're careful.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Steel I'm not entirely

Steel I'm not entirely against you - I personally have a thing for hive intelligences, and I think a lot of people would consider them exhuman as well. But your analogy has a great big hole in it. There is an absolutely massive difference in power between the zookeeper and the tiger, and that keeps the zookeeper (mostly) safe. Instead, extend it to tigers and humans in early africa. The tigers mostly don't care about you, and if you don't set them off you're ok... but they'll kill people here and there. People don't want to be killed, so they strike back. Eventually they exterminate as many as possible to keep themselves safe. Maybe some people would accept the risk of living among creatures like that, but not many. For another example of such things, look up Timothy Treadwell.

You act as if this is an acceptable risk, but what do you do when the exhumans drift towards your hab? Just accept that hey, they might kill people every once and a while? No. You're going to nuke them before they start murdering your people.

EDIT: Derp, tigers don't live in africa. Feel free to replace tiger with a regionally appropriate large cat species.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Appropriatly enough, lions.

As I've tried to make my point, I'm not saying throw caution to the wind. I'm just saying treat each Exhuman on a case by case basis. At least attempt to communicate before the shooting starts.

To use this analogy once more, the power difference between an Exhuman certain kinds of transhumans may or may not be so vast as the zookeeper and the tiger.

If an Exhuman wanted to board my ship and appeared to be at least lucid, I would put my crew on alert and ready countermeasures, but I wouldn't blow the creature's vessel/Exhuman itself to space debris at the first hailing frequency.

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Alkahest wrote

Alkahest wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
An Exhuman is someone who has rejected all vestiges of humanity, and thinks that nobody else should have them, either. Exhumans either want to destroy all humanity, or assimilate it, Borg style.

Implicit in this statement is the idea that the only thing keeping us from butchering our fellow humans is our humanity. I'm sure most mercurials would disagree.

Vital emphasis added.

Quote:
This logic of "no longer human = genocidal maniac" seems more like something a Jovian would think. If you're transhuman, you're no longer human, right? So why don't we see hordes of transhumans descending to murder every flat on Ganymede?

(No Longer transhuman) + (Genocidal Maniac OR Forcible Assimilation) = Exhuman.

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uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Quote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Quote:
This logic of "no longer human = genocidal maniac" seems more like something a Jovian would think. If you're transhuman, you're no longer human, right? So why don't we see hordes of transhumans descending to murder every flat on Ganymede?

(No Longer transhuman) + (Genocidal Maniac OR Forcible Assimilation) = Exhuman.

Except the genocide or assimilation isn't necessary. Exhuman is just "further than transhuman."

Transhumans are supposed to be a bridge between human and posthuman while the exhumans reject the humanity element of both and go off on their own to pursue alien methods to achieve their goals, as sane or insane as they may be to transhuman standards.

Quote:
Humanity is weak, and you intend to elevate your
body and mind to a superior state of existence. You
embrace new and developing technologies, no matter
how dangerous and untested, to perfect your physical
form and upgrade your mind. You intend to survive
and dominate, no matter the cost.

While that has a wording that implies they may act in ways deem immoral to transhuman standards, they are still available as a character option, thus are compatible with most transhumans, at least for Firewall ops. As much as a Jovian and an Uplift/AGI could work together.

Aside from the "safe" Asyncs, exsurgents aren't available but exhumans are. Factors are not, but exhumans are. I would posit that exhumans are not *THAT* bad. Don't trust them any more than a stranger, but don't wholesale murder them on sight.

I say all of this with the stated position that I am biased for exhumanism. Doesn't mean I would trust one anymore than a self-professed criminal (Triad, Night Cartel, or the dispicable Nine Lives) or a proud hypercapitalist.

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Irony

See the ironic thing is, I would be more inclined to kill a professed member of the Nine Lives Cartel than I would an Exhuman.

Not to say someone with that AR tagged would be suddenly without a head if I saw them walking around a Scum Barge, but if ordered to kill him:

"Happy to oblige!"
SLASH

Your passion is power. Focus it.
Your body is a tool. Hone it.
Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Yeah, Nine Lives is a tad

Yeah, Nine Lives is a tad extreme, no one likes them. Maybe go with Ultimates, ruthless pseudo-fascist jerks.

But my point being that in a world where you have places that open criminals, thieves and murders. ID Crew (who also forknap and titularly ID-theft folks) and so forth, walking around and theoretically you don't immediately kill them with cold blood. In such a setting, I am struggling to see why exhumans are open targets, the whole "kill zir! Ze wants to be different than us!" is okay.

Exoglots are perfect example. Super weird but if they were my neighbors, I could abide.

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Exoglots = friendly if closed

Exoglots = friendly if closed, and should be accepted.

Rorty Exhumans = crazy expansionistic and hostile, frag them.

Similarly if Scum prospectors visit me on my asteroid and want to do drugs and party, fine. If Carbon Reavers want to shoot me and steal my shit, screw them! Exhumans should be judged by their actions and motives and not their personal/clade philosophies. The difference between "leave me alone, I want to practice Space Amish" and "leave me alone, I want to try out a weird lifestyle and experiment on my person/mind" is null. While "I am gonna kill you to take your material wealth/carbon" by Carbon Reavers and "I am gonna kill you because I think I am greater and a apex predator" is equally troubling.

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Hello everyone! First post!

Hello everyone! First post!

I was under the impression (and I believe that this is what ShadowDragon8685 is getting at) that the exhuman descriptor specifically refers to groups/individuals who are actively hostile.
Those who seek development but aren't hostile would be either techno-progressives or Mercurials*.

On the flipside, Mercurials who attempt to adopt a "feral" mindset could absolutely be considered exhumans.

Regarding neural alterations, it's worth keeping in mind that the alterations that any given exhuman makes to it's psyche are not those which will make it more rational, but those it thinks will make it more rational.
Taken more generally, the rejection of transhuman mores, and their subsequent psychosurgical expulsion may, and likely does, cause disproportionate and/or seemingly unrelated behavioral distortion.
For example, removing the cognitive bias against non-human life could cause sociopathy or cannibalism. Similarly, an increased regard for the wellbeing of others may lead to the exhuman kidnapping people and locking them into a continuous mind-destroying Tasp, whilst a fork/muse of the exhuman uses thier morph as a fleshbot.

*The mercurial background states "You might even be an infomorph or posthuman who has strayed so far from transhuman interests and values that you now consider yourself to be forging a unique new path of life".

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
MAD Crab wrote:You just said

MAD Crab wrote:
You just said it there.
An exhuman that worked an a pure game theory basis would be terrifying and horrible. It wouldn't care that you'd worked well together for five years, it would murder you if the equations said there would be a net benefit.

It's a common misconception about game theory that a selfish and rational agent will be backstabbing people to the left and right. Cooperation pays off. It's old as balls by now, but the BBC documentary Nice Guys Finish First is all about a seemingly altrustic strategy being the optimal one for an egoist.

In any case, I'd rather work with a person who sees me as a means to an end (which, let's be honest, probably applies to most successful businessmen) than a person who wants to kick my teeth out because of my sexual orientation.

MAD Crab wrote:
Or say the exhuman instead was super intelligent. Actually, this pushes straight into TITAN territory - like the ant, we don't understand why these intelligences do anything. Maybe they have good reasons! Maybe they really like hunting. Who the hell can know?

"They're smart, therefore they will murder us all! We must kill everyone smarter than us in self-defense!"

Yeah, I don't really buy that logic. It's not really an argument as much as it is an appeal to ignorance and paranoia. I see no reason why you would become more genocidal as you become more intelligent.

In any case, this sounds exactly like something a Jovian could say about an AGI, or an uplifted octopus, or hell, about a menton. "I don't understand how they think, therefore they want to slaughter humans!"

And Jovians are silly.

MAD Crab wrote:
And why would all these exhumans change their minds in the same way? If that proto-exhuman really, really hates novacrabs he's not going to cut that part of his mind out. Hell, he'll probably baby it through any changes he makes. Again - who knows what the resulting exhuman is going to act like?

I see no more reasons for why an exhuman would keep that part than for why he would keep the part that tells him to like big breasts and fat food.

And as you say, he doesn't hate novacrabs because he's an exhuman, he hates novacrabs because he was an intolerant dick before he became an exhuman. The "exhuman" part is irrelevant, if anything becoming an exhuman is likely to make his mind less intolerant.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:Agreeing

bibliophile20 wrote:
Agreeing with Steel Accord; differing cultural views alone make predicting the views and actions of other human beings difficult. Once you start excising and adding neural connections and adding and removing motivations, it becomes that much harder, especially on an individual level, to predict and understand the behavior of another entity. Heck, take smiling as an example. For humans, showing your teeth is a social behavior--we're laughing or showing pleasure. For dogs, wolves and chimps, it's a threat display. For another example, Rhesus monkeys (or I might be thinking of a different primate), which often stolen from the wild and sold as a pet, raises its arms and shows its teeth, and the humans think that it's cute, and will play with it, while it's trying to scare off what it perceives as a threat.

Right. So what would happen if the monkey had a human IQ and spoke English?

"Oh, by the way, when I raise my arms and show my teeth, I don't want to play, I'm angry and scared."

"Oh, okay, Mister Monkey. I'll keep that in mind."

Truly, an unbridgeable gap that leaves genocidal war our only method of interaction.

Look at my pig's face. That's my sarcasm face.

bibliophile20 wrote:
As a result, the only way to prevent that sort of behavior is to completely remove the human tendencies towards stereotyping, anthropomorphizing, surface trait identification, tribalism, psychological projection and all of those other traits that tend towards bigotry and the assignment of "Other"--at which point, you have a new group of exhumans, who might be peaceful... or might potentially look at their still-human precedents and logically realize that there is no way, given the psychological profiles of their precedents, that they can coexist long term and decide to strike first for their own self-preservation.

If humans really are unwilling to consider any option other than genocide, we deserve to be eradicated. But I have seen enough good in my species to know that we're better than that.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Freedom Geek wrote:Humanity

Freedom Geek wrote:
Humanity rests on a small island in the sea of possible value systems. Those value systems commonly held in 10 AF is a smaller subset still. And if you don't believe that your morality has some manner of great cosmic significance that any sufficiently intelligent being will work out then you're right to be worried about something powerful coming along with something wildly different.

And what, exactly, would be the problem of someone holding different values from me? "They are different, therefore we must kill them!" is a way of thinking I had hoped humanity could leave on the ash heap of history, where it belongs.

In any case, I think people overestimate how incomprehensible exhuman values would be. They are constrained by the same reality and the same laws of logic that we are. There are a limited amount of values they can hold that aren't suicidal.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
MAD Crab wrote:Steel I'm not

MAD Crab wrote:
Steel I'm not entirely against you - I personally have a thing for hive intelligences, and I think a lot of people would consider them exhuman as well. But your analogy has a great big hole in it. There is an absolutely massive difference in power between the zookeeper and the tiger, and that keeps the zookeeper (mostly) safe. Instead, extend it to tigers and humans in early africa. The tigers mostly don't care about you, and if you don't set them off you're ok... but they'll kill people here and there. People don't want to be killed, so they strike back. Eventually they exterminate as many as possible to keep themselves safe. Maybe some people would accept the risk of living among creatures like that, but not many. For another example of such things, look up Timothy Treadwell.

Tigers kill people because they are stupid. If they had a human IQ and Internet access, they would know that killing a human leads to Bad Consequences.

What goes for non-humans goes for humans and ex-humans as well. I distrust and fear the stupid much more than I distrust and fear the smart. Limiting people's intelligence in order to reduce the threat of extinction is kind of like trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it.

I mean, would you rather have a smart president with zir finger on the Button, or a dumb one?

MAD Crab wrote:
You act as if this is an acceptable risk, but what do you do when the exhumans drift towards your hab? Just accept that hey, they might kill people every once and a while? No. You're going to nuke them before they start murdering your people.

I see a Muslimy-looking man on the street. He could just be a regular guy, but he could also be a suicide bomber. I better shoot him, just to be on the safe side.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:(No

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
(No Longer transhuman) + (Genocidal Maniac OR Forcible Assimilation) = Exhuman.

Hrnh. Where does it explicitly say that you have to be genocidal or the Borg in order to qualify as an exhuman?

What do you call a previously transhuman person who experiments with untested technology in order to increase zir intelligence to TITAN levels, and whose mind is distributed in two hundred space centipedes? I have a hard time seeing how you could not call such an individual an exhuman.

Another thought experiment: Let's say we have a bunch of stereotypical exhumans raiding and being complete dicks somewhere around Pluto or wherever. After a while, they realize that being dicks is not getting them anywhere, and they sign a peace treaty with the local non-exhuman stations. Are these exhumans no longer exhumans the moment they agree to not be dicks? What have they turned into?

Also, no matter how much the books describe various exhuman groups as "hostile", I can't shake the feeling that the writers are giving them an unfairly bad rap. Look at the Nest, in Rimward p. 144. The book tersely informs us that "all encounters with the Nest have been hostile". But what do these exhumans actually do? They are "hurtling away from the solar system at 40 kilometers per second".

It seems to me that these guys would not be a problem if people would just leave them the heck alone. They clearly don't want to interact with transhumanity, they just want to get out of the neighborhood. I wonder who's really to blame for these "hostile" encounters.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

Alkahest Alkahest's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:Hello

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Hello everyone! First post!

Welcome to the forum!

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
I was under the impression (and I believe that this is what ShadowDragon8685 is getting at) that the exhuman descriptor specifically refers to groups/individuals who are actively hostile.
Those who seek development but aren't hostile would be either techno-progressives or Mercurials*.

On the flipside, Mercurials who attempt to adopt a "feral" mindset could absolutely be considered exhumans.


Hmm. I'd be more willing to buy that if we actually were presented with examples of murderous neo-chimps being called "exhumans" and non-murderous, hyper-intelligent space bugs being called "mercurials".

But it would be interesting if "mercurial" and "exhuman" were used in-setting as a euphemism and a dysphemism, respectively. Kind of like "freedom fighter" and "terrorist", expressing less the facts about the group or individual and more the speaker's attitude towards said group or individual. Imagine the political mud-slinging...

"My opponent has declined to inform the public that she in her youth was a member of a radical exhuman-sympathizer organization!"

"Pure slander! The Mercurial Solidarity League is dedicated to nonviolence and democratic methods of social change, and has no connection whatsoever to any exhuman group!"

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Regarding neural alterations, it's worth keeping in mind that the alterations that any given exhuman makes to it's psyche are not those which will make it more rational, but those it thinks will make it more rational.

Rationality is not just opinion. Wanting to become more rational and actually becoming more rational is not a statistical fluke, it's the result of using the same laws of logic that apply to everyone in the universe.

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Taken more generally, the rejection of transhuman mores, and their subsequent psychosurgical expulsion may, and likely does, cause disproportionate and/or seemingly unrelated behavioral distortion.
For example, removing the cognitive bias against non-human life could cause sociopathy or cannibalism.

As a vegan, I reject your description of me as a sociopathic cannibal. It's a half-truth, at best!

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Similarly, an increased regard for the wellbeing of others may lead to the exhuman kidnapping people and locking them into a continuous mind-destroying Tasp, whilst a fork/muse of the exhuman uses thier morph as a fleshbot.

Meh, still better than what a typical politician thinks will increase my well-being.

Heyo!

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Alkahest wrote

Alkahest wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
(No Longer transhuman) + (Genocidal Maniac OR Forcible Assimilation) = Exhuman.

Hrnh. Where does it explicitly say that you have to be genocidal or the Borg in order to qualify as an exhuman?

What do you call a previously transhuman person who experiments with untested technology in order to increase zir intelligence to TITAN levels, and whose mind is distributed in two hundred space centipedes?

Brinker. Also fucking weird, and I'll be damned if I use "zir" as a pronoun.

But still a Brinker.

Quote:
I have a hard time seeing how you could not call such an individual an exhuman.

Brinker! Brinker, brinker, brinker! See? It's not hard to bust out "Exhuman" on them! :)

Quote:
Another thought experiment: Let's say we have a bunch of stereotypical exhumans raiding and being complete dicks somewhere around Pluto or wherever. After a while, they realize that being dicks is not getting them anywhere, and they sign a peace treaty with the local non-exhuman stations. Are these exhumans no longer exhumans the moment they agree to not be dicks? What have they turned into?

Assuming that their raiding and dickishness was precipitated for reasons other than "Humans suck EXTERMINATE!" then they were never Exhumans, they were hostile Brinker pirates the whole time.

That distinction is likely to be lost on some, assuming they weren't making their reasons for being hostile dicks clear, but they were never exhumans.

Quote:
Also, no matter how much the books describe various exhuman groups as "hostile", I can't shake the feeling that the writers are giving them an unfairly bad rap. Look at the Nest, in Rimward p. 144. The book tersely informs us that "all encounters with the Nest have been hostile". But what do these exhumans actually do? They are "hurtling away from the solar system at 40 kilometers per second".

It seems to me that these guys would not be a problem if people would just leave them the heck alone. They clearly don't want to interact with transhumanity, they just want to get out of the neighborhood. I wonder who's really to blame for these "hostile" encounters.

They've turned themselves into completely hostile, arguably sub-sapient insectoid abominations that attack on sight. I call that exhuman.

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Alkahest Alkahest's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Brinker. Also fucking weird, and I'll be damned if I use "zir" as a pronoun.

But still a Brinker.


"Brinker" is an extremely wide tent, and at the same time it's not wide enough to incorporate all non-violent exhumans. The only thing that unites all brinkers is a desire for isolation, which is common but not universal among non-violent exhumans.

In addition, one of the "suggested motivations" for a brinker is "exhumanism". They are clearly two different things, and while you can both be exhuman and a brinker, you don't have to be a brinker just because you're exhuman. Look at the exoglots, for example. They're not brinkers, but what exactly do you call them if they are not exhumans?

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Assuming that their raiding and dickishness was precipitated for reasons other than "Humans suck EXTERMINATE!" then they were never Exhumans, they were hostile Brinker pirates the whole time.

So them being exhumans or not has nothing to do with their actions or how their bodies and minds work, it's all about their motivations for their actions? Seems a bit fuzzy to me.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
They've turned themselves into completely hostile, arguably sub-sapient insectoid abominations that attack on sight. I call that exhuman.

Abominations? Check your privilege, human!

And we have no idea if they "attack on sight", just that "all encounters with the Nest have been hostile". Maybe they just want to be left alone. There's no indication that they raid or do other stereotypically violent exhuman things, in fact they seem intent on getting as far away from others as possible. Hardly the "Humans suck EXTERMINATE!"-motivation you ascribe to all exhumans.

President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Alkahest wrote:Abominations?

Alkahest wrote:
Abominations? Check your privilege, human!

Let's see... Gigantic, bladed anthropod murdering machines....

Yeap, I'm gonna call "Abomination" on that and kill it with fire.

Quote:
And we have no idea if they "attack on sight", just that "all encounters with the Nest have been hostile". Maybe they just want to be left alone. There's no indication that they raid or do other stereotypically violent exhuman things, in fact they seem intent on getting as far away from others as possible. Hardly the "Humans suck EXTERMINATE!"-motivation you ascribe to all exhumans.

Nope; instead, they've put themselves on slow rocks out of the solar system which will, possibly, in god-knows-how-long, wind up falling towards an inhabited planet, possibly by humans, possibly by other things.

Now, what do you reckon they're going to do there? If you said "consume, multiply, consume," then give yourself a cookie.

So, yes. I'm calling Exhuman.

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