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Damned Exoskeleton...

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FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
Damned Exoskeleton...
... So I made the mistake of telling my players they could start with anything that they could design or buy from the books and I'd wrap the campaign around them. Unfortunately one of them found battle suits and just trucks around constantly in the thing. While its not a strictly combat campaign, its a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS when combat does come around, since without plasma rifles I can't scratch him, and that'll vaporize the other members of the party... ... blah. Anyway, they're in the Saturn system, which means mostly anarchists, and therefore I can't make it 'illegal to walk around in a battle suit', but I want him out of the damn thing when they're not strictly on a combat style mission... Ideas? I thought about maybe just making a crowd of 'concerned citizens' follow him around everywhere he goes, on the idea that ' no one would walk around wearing that much armor unless they were up to no good '... And other ideas?
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Frankly bring out the fenrir
Frankly bring out the fenrir and waste the party. EP is built around the idea that you will die and will die frequently. equipment is not fleshed out like a shadowrun or spycraft supplement because its meant to be fleeting. It would be rather interesting for him to resleave then go back to where he died and see the charred meat in the cockpit Now as for more subtler approaches here the rep economy will shine. Make people less willing to do business with him. the cost to fuel his exo skeleton keeps slowly creeping up. Make it clear that no npc really trusts him One also forgets one of the more subtler aspects of the setting. Nanites. Dissembler swarms while it may take a while would eventually make the mech non operable at the least. Also everything is wireless. have enemy hackers break the ice on his mech and and then you get to have fun with it }:D> if they are based in orbitals have most of the common areas having doors to small to accommodate him without him using the power armor to enlarge it. after doing that outside an emergency can you say forced ego caste? perhaps a bit twisted have him approached by an npc who has a bit of a fetish for the power armor. this npc goes everywhere the armor goes always getting in the way and at night if you walk into the morgue you can find him shall we say greasing the gears. eventually he downloads himself into and becomes one with them machine fighting the old owner saying its his body now. Maybe abuse the flexbot rules a little and that he has to carry around a backpack and a suitcase type module everywhere that is very very heavy. unfortunately it sounds like you gave them carte blanche otherwise you could insist on him giving apa citations for everything he wants <- favorite way to kill a RAW munchkin bottom line you can tell him that if heavy combat comes around he will have enough time although i would love putting obstacles in the way to make him go through air ducts and give a feeling of being hunted :P EDIT: this is better suited for EP general discussion since it concerns gming practice not creating custom content.
thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Have you tried
Just talking to the player before you slam the hammer down on them? They will likely understand if you don't want their character walking around in full armor everywhere, it's common sense. If you start having in character NPCs antagonize them without explaining first, things are going to get messy quickly. If you absolutely have to do it in character, just tell the player their morph will eventually have to stop and take a leak.
"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Exoskellys have plumbing.
Exoskellys have plumbing.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Erulastant wrote:Exoskellys
Erulastant wrote:
Exoskellys have plumbing.
Is it plumbing you'd WANT to use? Because I don't really want that to come dislodged while I'm being pelted with .50 rounds.
"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute
Myrmidont Myrmidont's picture
Um, have the players need to
Um, have the players need to egocast somewhere? That way he won't be able to take his gear with him.
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DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
The first problem is, that
The first problem is, that you allowed the players have whatever they wanted, and get to do whatever they wanted with it. Fess up to them and tell them that the battlesuit complicates things greatly. Tell the other players that it turns out that the only weapons that will threaten a battlesuit are the kinds of weapons that will wipe out the rest of the team, like plasma weapons and seekers. It might be in everyone's best interest if the player keeps the battlesuit at home. If he does not, then any fight will result in the opponents running away and returning when they get such weapons. ---- Anyways... How big of a threat is the character with the exoskeleton? If he is armed like a Reaper, then the character should get a Reaper like response. It will raise eyebrows and might get the character arrested. If the character does try resist arrest, then the cops might bring out the plasma weapons and seekers so they can deal with the character. Likewise, the character will draw attention. Firewall is about a secret society trying to protect transhumanity. If they can't be incognito, then they have already partially failed their job. The exoskeleton may be tough, but it is also an environmental suit as well. It can handle a range of temperatures beyond a normal biomorph, but this is not unlimited. Likewise, life support is only good for 48 hours. The character probably needs to sleep as well. Throw the character into difficult environments don't give them a break. A Hyperdense exoskeleton (EP core p. 344). It is bigger and stronger than a battlesuit (but not as well armored though). It can probably harm the battlesuit in melee combat. Standard missiles (seekers) deal x2 the listed amount, pushing the damage beyond plasma rifles. It also doubles the area of effect (woe to the other players). Many of these weapons cost [Moderate], a fraction of the cost of a battlesuit. A dazzler (p. 316) will probably blind a person wearing a battlesuit. Technically it will blind the battlesuit, but the wearer will probably be completely sealed for maximum protection. Social grace. It might have none. A person who runs around in a battlesuit all the time might breed distrust, and might sour deals that the character might otherwise get. The other parties might ask the character to wait outside or at home, since the suit does suggest the character is battle ready. Comply or they might refuse to show up. Exoskeletons can be hacked and remotely piloted. Does a character want to be in one when someone else is in control? If someone else is in control, can they sour the character's rep by going on a rampage?
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Getting rid of the Battlesuit
Getting rid of the Battlesuit will [b]not[/b] get rid of the problem. I have a player who used regular heavy armor and stacked all the shit, and got an armor rating [i]higher[/i] than the battlesuit. Anyway, you have to face up that Eclipse Phase is not D&D. Everybody is not expected to be able to contribute roughly equally in combat. Battlesuit Guy is wearing a military specification hardsuit, not at all unlike those that Tagon's Toughs of Schlock Mercenary are wearing in recent strips. If he's wearing that around the town, then he is dressed and prepared for [b]war[/b]. In some places, that's acceptable. Scum don't give a fuck, most anarchists don't give a fuck. The Titanians might have a problem with that, though. Of course, even where it is acceptable, it may not be particularly welcomed - having a guy thundering through the halls in a hardsuit is going to be annoying. People [i]will[/i] be pinging his rep for it, unless he's very frequently able to demonstrate [i]why[/i] he's wearing the hardsuit, and moreover, why people want him to be thundering around in the hardsuit, such as by breaking up fights with superior force. Anyway: Don't penalize the hardsuit guy for being a master of combat. That's what he invested himself in, and he's good at it. Penalizing him for being a heavily-armed, nigh-indestructible god of war would be like penalizing the party Face for taking a morph with tailored pheremones and Striking Looks 3. Or penalizing the hacker for being an infomorph with the quality that lets them hammer through IC easily. Also remember that there's no particular reason that fights should be "Balanced." The opposition aren't going to limit themselves because your group does. Evaluate foes based on who they are, what resources they have, and what intelligence they have. If they know that this guy likes to stomp around in a battlesuit, have them bring a Diatya morph with an autocannon or something to kill him dead. If they do [b]not[/b] know about Hardsuit Guy, have them show up with submachineguns and rifles and shit several masonry hods worth of bricks when they realize that literally nothing they have is going to hurt him, and then retreat to get reinforcements. And don't feel bad about blowing him up... But don't go out of your way to do it, either. Don't say "This is the encounter I'm going to have someone nail this guy with a full-sized HEAP Seeker, come hell or high water." If that happens, so be it. If it doesn't happen, so be it.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
SnugglyBuffalo SnugglyBuffalo's picture
Social repercussions seem
Social repercussions seem really likely here. It might not be illegal in an autonomist habitat, but he's doing the equivalent of driving a tank to work every day. A few might think he's a badass, but most will probably think he's a tool ("Are you for real? You need to wear a battlesuit while you get breakfast?"). I wouldn't be at all surprised to see his rep take a hit whenever he interacts with someone where wearing a battlesuit isn't justified ("I'm a reputable woman, do you really feel so threatened that you need to wear that to meet with me?"). Plus, he's basically giving himself the data footprint negative trait. Anyone looking for him or his colleagues is going to have a really easy time finding him. As for taking his toy away temporarily, nanoswarms are probably the way to go. A military-grade fullerene armor shell is great for stopping bullets and plasma beams, but it's just a convenient source of carbon to a protean nanoswarm. His expensive toy can be easily dealt with using tech in the [high] cost range: Someone anticipating combat with a battlesuit-wearing opponent could hit him with a saboteur nanoswarm. Unless someone's actively running a nanodetector, he probably won't even realize something's up until the accumulated damage starts inflicting wounds on his machine. It would take on average 12 seconds to reach that point, and on average one minute to render the battlesuit completely inoperable until he gets it repaired. If you want to threaten him in combat without giving the enemy weapons that would wipe out the other characters, have someone with a buzzer hit him with a disassembler nanoswarm. Every turn his armor rating will drop by 1-5 points. Even if they win the combat, his suit will be rendered to base components within a couple minutes if they can't stop those nanites. If you don't want to destroy his battlesuit, give him clues that people in the area have been known to use nanoswarms in combat and that having a guardian swarm to protect his asset would be a good idea. It won't stop the disassemblers from stripping his armor, but it will (probably) stop them from destroying his suit completely, allowing him to repair it. For something with a little more flavor, hit him with a Protean nanoswarm that strips his armor but doesn't harm any other components (it would presumably function like a disassembler but stop when the armor rating hits 0 instead of moving on to the battlesuit's durability). "Look at your battlesuit. Look again. Your fullerene armor shell is now diamonds!" Cackle maniacally as he triggers an enemy trap that makes his armor slowly crumble into piles of useless gems around him, leaving him with a battlesuit frame that augments his strength but offers no protection until he can repair it (which might be easier in this case since it's just putting in new fullerene armor instead of repairing extensive nano-sabotage or damage from having the entire shell eaten away by nanites). In the future, I'd tell players that they can start with whatever gear they want, but warn them that you aren't going to tailor your campaign to make their gear permanent; remind them that spending 20 CP on gear means you are 20 CP behind your fellow players when everyone dies and has to resleeve. And if you really want a battlesuit for a mission, you can always try to pull some favors to get one.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
I can't really blame someone for wanting to be Iron Man.
Don't forget that you can do called shots to bypass armour. Also, unless he's specifically bought it as an upgrade, battlesuits have no innate propulsion... so if he "accidentally" gets booted off the hab/ship/whatever, he has no way to get back. There aren't any specific rules for it, but splash rounds filled with liquid thermite or scrappers gel should eat away at armour pretty quickly. If you still want to get rid of it, try playing up the threat. Have your bad guys bring up rail-rifles and grenades, or even their own battlesuits, and have them vent the areas the suit's in. Make that guy the prime target of all enemy fire, and have the fight rip out walls, damage station infrastructure and make the collateral damage *high*. Make it absolutely clear that getting in a fight whilst wearing the suit is going to absolutely wreck the place, probably screw the mission up royally, and may well get the rest of the team killed. Make it his choice to stop using it.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Oh and i forgot one nice
Oh and i forgot one nice thing. Wearing such a suit constantly is going to cause massive hygiene problems. he is going to stink when he gets out of that thing and keep such pressure on the flesh constantly should eventually result in bed sores which are great avenues for infection
Zarpaulus Zarpaulus's picture
Well, there's always what I
Well, there's always what I planned to do to my Traveller player who weaseled his way into a suit of Battle Dress and an PGMP. Hack it. Then cackle maniacally as he is forced to watch while he attacks his friends and they have to kill him to save the habitat. Make sure to invoke a serious Stress test when he resleeves. And before you say something like "it's not networked" let me remind you about the time some hackers made the Iranian nuclear research team's air-gapped network play AC/DC with a virus they got into a flash drive.
TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Sniper rifles with RAP ammo
Sniper rifles with RAP ammo rip big juicy chunks out of heavily armoured things. Speed 2 gives you four shots at AP -18 every round. Don't forget the +5/+10 DV bonus for 30/60 MoS. I may have discovered this in my current game, where two characters nearly totalled an SLOTV in three rounds from two kilometers away. Thanks, Accushot ammo!
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
Adaptive Radiation Adaptive Radiation's picture
I've been in a similar
I've been in a similar situation like this and probably one of the best thing to do is change up how you design your encounters. My group needed to kidnap an executive of Gorgon Securities so I had to come up with his bodyguards. While the guy did have two combat-trained escorts in Fury morphs as well as three Guard synthmorphs with rail assault rifles equipped with RAP rounds and under barrel seeker launchers, the biggest threat that they faced was going to be a network of about 6 Guardian Angels each sleeved with an alpha fork of a new security AGI called Legion. Each Legion would be tacneted to the rest of the security team and to each other and would be running around the battlefield, hacking the PCs and marking them for the Guards' seekers while a couple stay with the executive and the Furies as they map out a safe exit route for him. The importance of an encounter like this is that it requires the PCs to come up with a plan with everyone involved. A charge in decked out power armor will be seen by the Legion network a mile away and will be stopped easily and is going to require everyone playing their part. Also this is a setting where looking at the wrong thing can reprogram a normal person into a murderous psycho. No matter how badass his power armor is, it'll be seen as quaint compared with TITAN tech.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
ORCACommander wrote:Oh and i
ORCACommander wrote:
Oh and i forgot one nice thing. Wearing such a suit constantly is going to cause massive hygiene problems. he is going to stink when he gets out of that thing and keep such pressure on the flesh constantly should eventually result in bed sores which are great avenues for infection
Not really. This is Eclipse Phase. Belters are known to wear hardsuits for months at a time. Cleaner nanoswarm handles the hygiene, smart material linings and medichines keep you healthy and free of bedsores.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
true but hush. the pc is
true but hush. the pc is probly thinks with meat so he may not be smart enough to know to turn them on or set them up to do that in the first place :)
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
ORCACommander wrote:true but
ORCACommander wrote:
true but hush. the pc is probly thinks with meat so he may not be smart enough to know to turn them on or set them up to do that in the first place :)
That's like telling veteran Shadowrunners they don't have a flashlight because their players forgot to put it on their character sheet, or telling an experienced Fighter that his armor is full of nasty sludge and his sword is dull because he neglected to tell the DM he's maintaining it properly. As a GMing tactic, it's disingenuous bullshit. Anyway, FuzzySadist? You have to learn to deal with this. You're never going to be able to stop players from getting their hands on paramilitary hardware, civilian hardware that can easily be repurposed into paramilitary hardware, and outright military hardware, moreso in Eclipse Phase than in any other game, because they can literally manufacture it out of chunks of scrap metal and scoops of grit. Don't think like a D&D DM. Everybody does not have to be equally contributory in combat. Think of it like Shadowrun - the Street Samurai's job is to own people in combat, the Face's job is to own people in social situations. And quite frankly, if some yobbos who are unprepared pick a fight with a guy in power armor, they deserve to be annihilated. No-selling half-assed combatants is the entire point of power-armor. I know, it's a hard mindset to get out of, I fall prey to it myself sometimes, but unprepared enemies simply aren't going to be able to scratch a character in full armor, so try very, [i]very[/i] hard not to take it personally. The NPCs are not your characters, a player victory is not your defeat; NPCs are simply actors who exist, following their own agendas, which are presumably bringing them into conflict with the players. That said, everybody and his mum should know how loltastically easy it is to get comfortable, wear-all-the-damn-time armor which can shrug off submachinegun fire like it's literally not there. Those who are serious about combat plan accordingly, so bear it in mind. Submachineguns, pistols, etcetera, are the domain of gang bangers, street thugs, and rent-a-cops; people who expect to be shooting at completely or almost-completely unarmored, and most likely unarmed, targets. People who are expecting to have to kill the kind of person who's going to shoot back are going to be carrying heavy railpistols loaded with AP rounds, minimum, as a sidearm, which is what you carry when you don't expect to have to use it. If they [i]are[/i] expecting trouble, then go up to rail-rifles. Alternatively, you can go for standard firearms with the gimmicky ammunition, but one of my players discovered to his detriment the other day that a focused full burst of accushot ammunition failed to do any appreciable damage, far less than a single shot from a railpistol with non-AP ammo. Make it an IC thing, too, I did. After that fight, my player (on a Scum swarm) got spammed by people telling him that though his immediate reaction against a couple of usurious thugs from Luna was both valiant and effective, they criticized his weapon and the ammunition it was firing, strongly suggesting that he switch it for a rail-rifle with AP ammo.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
You know shadow i was just
You know shadow i was just saying that to be funny -_-
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
ORCACommander wrote:You know
ORCACommander wrote:
You know shadow i was just saying that to be funny -_-
Yes, but this is the internet, and there's always going to be [i]some[/i] GM who's going to see that and say "That's a damn good idea. They don't tell me any of that stuff, I'll screw 'em hard with it."
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
TranshumanMarina TranshumanMarina's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
ORCACommander wrote:
You know shadow i was just saying that to be funny -_-
Yes, but this is the internet, and there's always going to be [i]some[/i] GM who's going to see that and say "That's a damn good idea. They don't tell me any of that stuff, I'll screw 'em hard with it."
Arguably, Gm's like that are going to be problematic anyway even if they don't read such a statement, nor are they going to listen to well meaning advice to avoid that sort of thing. still, Damage control isn't a bad idea I guess.
During the fall, humanity received a grim reminder, We lived in fear of the T.I.T.A.N.S and were disgraced to live in these cages we called Habitats.
Chrontius Chrontius's picture
Heroism
I suggest giving them the opportunity to die gloriously for the hab. All the shouldering-through-undersized-doors stuff, BFGs &c. Then the local population can realize that "Gee, I guess they WEREN'T up to no good with that tin can" and present your character with a nice new sleeve and a low-profile power armor that actually fits through doors. You know, along with a bar tab they might never manage to drink up. I suggest starting with a smart vac suit, with aftermarket (but designed into the spec, so therefore more pleasant to use and stylish) upgrades which must not neglect muscle-plastic based actuators providing a strength boost. Armor can be buckytube-impregnated-silicone or something flexible but head-turningly sturdy. I recommend using Warframe as a design muse, given the nanotech power armor serving as the core conceit of the game. Point is - less dangerous, more rep, still reason to treat it as glorified underwear when someone breaks out the plasma cannon.
ubik2 ubik2's picture
Alternatives
As some other posters have pointed out, the system provides you with some good alternatives. The sniper railgun with armor piercing ammo is -20 AP and an average 21 DV. This should make its damage similar for both your other players and your heavily armored player. If your armored player has much more than the 21 AV of the battlesuit, called shots to avoid armor are the best option. This completely ignores armor, and you can fit a heavy pistol with hollow point and use burst fire for an average 26 DV. For low skill attackers, use full automatic and use the +30 bonus to help get the MoS of 30 required with a more manageable 20 DV. Unfortunately, your low armor players will still be taking more damage (since the shots with a MoS of less than 30 will still hurt them), but the gap is small enough that the natural focus of more shots on the heavily armored attacker will probably counter this. Both of these approaches lead to similar applied damage to your players, which seems to be what you're looking for in terms of balance (you can have them using called shots against the lightly armored players as well). I'm guessing the player with the battlesuit wanted to be the guy that everyone is shooting though, and the one that gets to laugh off those hits. If that isn't getting in the way of the gameplay, I'd just roll with it. If the other players feel like they're too weak in comparison, it's probably better to shift the focus away from combat towards the things they're better specialized for (presumably, that's the kind of gameplay they wanted).
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I, for one, would never allow
I, for one, would never allow the +30 to attack roll spray of full-auto fire to be applied to any kind of called shot. You're not calling a shot, you're spraying a praying. Spray and pray is what you use if you're having trouble landing [i]any shots at all[/i], anywhere on the target, it's not what you use to find that one little gap between his helmet and his chestpiece where his armor is merely ballistic smart-cloth and not the carbonan carapace that every other bit of his armor is. Additionally, I would not allow a called shot to bypass armor to be applied to a military hardsuit. If the player has achieved his armor rating by layering normal military armor and all the little options, yes, but not a hardsuit. That's the benefit of a hardsuit, I would say, over layering everything else.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
ubik2 ubik2's picture
No recoil
Keep in mind that in the EP universe, recoil is a solved problem, so it might be better to think of full auto as using a continuous beam, rather than a pulse. It doesn't have the "spray and pray" behavior of modern automatic weapons (unless of course, they are using antique firearms). I agree that if a player wanted to use pistols to bypass the battlesuit's armor, I would probably limit it to halving the armor instead (even a battlesuit has some points that will be weaker than others), but since in this case, it's the GM that's trying to solve the problem, there's no reason for him to limit himself.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
ubik2: Recoil or not, you're
ubik2: Recoil or not, you're still using the +30 benefit of auto-fire to spray bullets around to hit someone you're having a hard time hitting. Otherwise, what you're doing isn't the +30 to-hit, it's the +3d10 damage, because you're putting the entire burst on the target. It makes precisely zero sense to use the +30 autofire spray to seek a called shot.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
templariomaster templariomaster's picture
Troll him and troll him hard.
Troll him and troll him hard. "Oh we're trapped, and the only scape is that small vent over there! It would be a shame If someone. Would be wearing an exosqueleton right?" "Oh look its a giant magnet And this is an anarchist exosqueleton is made mostly of magnetic materials ... Ow crap!" "Why everybody is aiming at me? Or more specifically at the junctions of this exoesqueleton?" Have in mind, that an exosqueleton should have the role of bringing heavy firepower to a fight, so it makes sense that It's disconnected from the network(or its use is reduced to minimum) but all depends on your player. Is he always ahead and charging? Put mines, is he always using a lot of firepower on behind? Put a sniper to aim at his weapons or put him next to a fission reactor... in the end use your imagination and don't be afraid, the first lesson in EP is that you should take care of your mind not your equipment. Or put him on equal, If I remember well... in NPC file prime 01 the standard assault jovian soldier had a battlesuit(it makes damn sense, maybe they use their standard bodys with very few modifications but their philosophy doesn't say nothing about using external machinery to improve themselves) with seekers and grenades.
thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
templariomaster wrote:Troll
templariomaster wrote:
Troll him and troll him hard.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo. No. No. Nooo-ooooo-ooo. No. Treating one player unfairly because you don't agree with they way they are exploiting the game's rules is a good way to get beaten up by that player. If you're going to start taking away player character's toys and/or having specific counters for their tactics, either start doing it for EVERY character or prepare to lose a player. They aren't going to put up with being abused. Don't be THAT Game Master.
"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute
templariomaster templariomaster's picture
thebluespectre wrote
thebluespectre wrote:
templariomaster wrote:
Troll him and troll him hard.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo. No. No. Nooo-ooooo-ooo. No. Treating one player unfairly because you don't agree with they way they are exploiting the game's rules is a good way to get beaten up by that player. If you're going to start taking away player character's toys and/or having specific counters for their tactics, either start doing it for EVERY character or prepare to lose a player. They aren't going to put up with being abused. Don't be THAT Game Master.
I think the term "troll" has become an obscure idea. Im not saying that you have to become the next Stalin, Im saying that you have to exploit the flaws of the characters using pure Irony in a way that they can only agree with you. Its like in D&D having a necromancer with a ton of effectivity, is just "unfair" that every encounter has a good cleric? No, its a small signal from the master that you're taking advantage of the system and really should think about how are you managing things or the next encounter will include terrible, terrible things. Is it terribly bad that after a lot of using the exosqueletos inmediatly the character have to resleeve elsewhere? No, the player had his fun and now it has to end, because by being so OP is taking the fun from others who can't really shine. Or in the end you might have all the other players asking for an exosqueleton, is it really bad to tell them that the exosqueleton has flaws? Like attracting a lot of attention or making them weak in ways they didn't think but make sense so even if they start whining they have to accept the truth that they were exploiting the system and taking down the fun? In the end, you have to keep a challenge because if there is no challenge there is no adventure and with no adventure there is no fun.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
OP, templariomaster's advice?
OP, templariomaster's advice? That should be treated as an object lesson in exactly what [i]not[/i] to do. Busting out hard counters in the hands of people who have no reason to expect the player's tactics and hence have prepared those hard counters, just because you're feeling they're having too easy a time of things, is shit game-mastering.
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MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Eh. Trolling might be going a
Eh. Trolling might be going a bit far, but you do have to take your player party into account when you're setting up your scenarios. If we're out gate crashing and the GM goes "Well, since none of their enemies know they're coming they'll just have a Fury or two," THAT is shit GMing. I walk around in the next best thing to a tank, and generally blow stuff up. What did the GM throw at us? A Dreadnought. Came within an inch of splattering me across the landscape. Which is a good thing, to my mind. Let the players have their fun being the big fish, then put them in a bigger pond.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:ubik2:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
ubik2: Recoil or not, you're still using the +30 benefit of auto-fire to spray bullets around to hit someone you're having a hard time hitting. Otherwise, what you're doing isn't the +30 to-hit, it's the +3d10 damage, because you're putting the entire burst on the target. It makes precisely zero sense to use the +30 autofire spray to seek a called shot.
You can use the +30 autofire to help you hit a fly. You can use it to help you hit a weak point. (It's a narrower spray than when you're not doing the called shot, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.)
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
MAD Crab wrote:Eh. Trolling
MAD Crab wrote:
Eh. Trolling might be going a bit far, but you do have to take your player party into account when you're setting up your scenarios. If we're out gate crashing and the GM goes "Well, since none of their enemies know they're coming they'll just have a Fury or two," THAT is shit GMing. I walk around in the next best thing to a tank, and generally blow stuff up. What did the GM throw at us? A Dreadnought. Came within an inch of splattering me across the landscape. Which is a good thing, to my mind. Let the players have their fun being the big fish, then put them in a bigger pond.
I'm of the opinion that the GM should make decisions for NPCs based not on what is balanced, but on what makes sense. There will be times when the battlesuit will go through the enemy like wet tissue. There will be times when the battlesuit is needed. There will be times when the battlesuit is not enough. (Now, just because the enemy doesn't know the PCs are coming doesn't mean they'll be underprepared. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that *someone* might be coming in just about any circumstance.)
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
templariomaster templariomaster's picture
Lets have in mind, that
Lets have in mind, that obviusly the problem here is that the master cant put anything bigger than a battlesuit in the game, because the game itself isnt focussed in combat but the battlesuit is destroying the fun on the parts that have combat. Trolling is just a bit of justice.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
yes I am cross posting this
yes I am cross posting this to the exo thread and ghost riding thread but I just remembered it and its a good lesson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPM7I49fj8
Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture
As Petyr Baelish once said...
"When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, best close your eyes, get it over with. Cut her throat. Be done with it." Bad players are like contemporary Republicans. You let one kick and scream and every good citizen suffers. Stop dicking around and Occam's razor that [bleep.]
"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Erulastant wrote:MAD Crab
Erulastant wrote:
MAD Crab wrote:
Eh. Trolling might be going a bit far, but you do have to take your player party into account when you're setting up your scenarios. If we're out gate crashing and the GM goes "Well, since none of their enemies know they're coming they'll just have a Fury or two," THAT is shit GMing. I walk around in the next best thing to a tank, and generally blow stuff up. What did the GM throw at us? A Dreadnought. Came within an inch of splattering me across the landscape. Which is a good thing, to my mind. Let the players have their fun being the big fish, then put them in a bigger pond.
I'm of the opinion that the GM should make decisions for NPCs based not on what is balanced, but on what makes sense. There will be times when the battlesuit will go through the enemy like wet tissue. There will be times when the battlesuit is needed. There will be times when the battlesuit is not enough. (Now, just because the enemy doesn't know the PCs are coming doesn't mean they'll be underprepared. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that *someone* might be coming in just about any circumstance.)
Yes, I agree. What I am saying is that if your players steamroll the foes you set up, you need bigger foes. That really is a kind of balance. It does overlook player balance though. We're seeing some of that in our game. Me and the resident fury can take a few hits, but the other two are squishy in the extreme. It makes combat kinda odd.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
"Oh, you're playing a fire mage? Red Dragon Invasion!"
templariomaster wrote:
Trolling is just a bit of justice.
Nooo, trolling is the exact opposite of justice. This is the worst possible way of handling the problem, unless the goal is to drive the player(s) away.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
If the player has achieved his armor rating by layering normal military armor and all the little options, yes, but not a hardsuit. That's the benefit of a hardsuit, I would say, over layering everything else.
Ignoring the "no penetration" for a second, as we've already discussed that elsewhere, I'd say the benefits of a battlesuit over layering are; 1. No layering penalties. 2. Increased strength and movement options. 3. It's technically a vehicle. The last two the most important. It means that if you're in a battlesuit, then you can use more, heavier weapons than otherwise: I would be okay with battlesuits toting around machine guns instead of combat rifles, for example. For the same reason, they can be tricked out with mounted weapons and other synthmorph/vehicle-only equipment. Also important is that as a vehicle they have thier own internal AI, which can either act independantly should the speed of the suit exceed that of the wearer, or provide support like reloading weapons or giving aid to climbing/freefall/freerunning rolls.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
I think we have gone as far
I think we have gone as far as we can without getting some input from Fuzzy
FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
ORCACommander wrote:I think
ORCACommander wrote:
I think we have gone as far as we can without getting some input from Fuzzy
I long ago figured out what I was going to do :) The conversation kind of took on a life of its own. I don't think any one person hit the total solution, but nuggets of good information was given by all. For me, I think I'll try several things. I'll allow the suit. I will have several locations where hard suits and heavy weapons are 'not allowed' (think of the bar in the Firefly movie). If the players want to go in, they have to go in without being geared up so heavily. Several other locations will also follow this rule such as government buildings, hypercorps, etc. Also, I'll use their reps against them... the higher their reps, the more their enemies will know about their heavy gear and prepare for it. Surprise me? Standard guards. I know you're coming? Armor busters. Common NPC's... probably just shoot you. Specialist NPC's? Aiming for the crack in your armor and specialty ammo. I may or may not do some hacking as well. Eventually they'll learn when its appropriate to run around in the armor, and when they should leave it behind.
Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture
Rodger dodger
Yeah, I think you're good to go. "Eventually they'll learn when its appropriate to run around in the armor, and when they should leave it behind." As a teacher that's probably the best I could expect to hear from a person. The players that learn are the ones you want to keep.
"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"