Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?

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DataPacRat DataPacRat's picture
Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Looking at the section on Robots, the text says they can be used as synth morphs by adding a cyberbrain - but I can't quite seem to find any mention of what the aptitude maximum of such a morph would be. (Or, for that matter, what the CP cost would be for it to be a character's starting morph.) Am I missing something obvious, or is it buried somewhere, or is it a datum that's simply not written down?
Thank you for your time,
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Cyberbrains appear to have an aptitude maximum of 30, given most synthetic morphs. I'd makes that the aptitude max for normal things, and then reduce SOM to an appropriate limitation (likely quite low on a Creepy, for example). That said, if you wanted to play one, you'd be better off just buying a Ghostrider Module and installing that in the robot, attaching a cortical stack to the module, then jamming the robot using direct wired access. That way, you're effectively an infomorph, granting you all the benefits thereof (speed bonus and aptitude maximums), while letting you keep your robot body. Not only is it overall more beneficial, it's cheaper too. It also means you can keep the bot piloted by an AI and set it to do things ("Run towards the elevator shaft!") while you release control and do things like hack a network or download yourself onto a new system, leaving the bot as a distraction.
DataPacRat DataPacRat's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
you'd be better off just buying a Ghostrider Module
... is that actually possible? It seems to break an assumption or two - I'd assumed that the fact that a Ghostrider module was cheaper than a Cyberbrain was that the Ghostrider module wasn't a complete cyberbrain in and of itself, but piggybacked on some of the hardware that comes with a cyberbrain. Am I mistaken there?
Thank you for your time,
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Well, given a Ghostrider Module can be implanted into a biomorph, I'm going to assume that it's not piggybacking on a cyberbrain. Since Infomorphs can also jam robots (controlling them as effectively as they would bodies), I see no reason this wouldn't be the case.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Agreed. I don't think a Ghostrider can have full, primary morph control (the text implies specific devices and implants only) without also using puppet control (built in to cyberbrains in the first place). Also, can a Ghostrider have the cortical stack you suggest? My general rule is that sneaky loopholing should be punished. :D Don't you take a -10 to everything, for starters?
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Well, all the robots in the core book are equipped to be jammed (explicitly says so, page 345), which is the term for assuming direct control ([i]You cannot stop us, Shepherd[/i]) rather than just remotely operating it, thereby eliminating the -10 penalty; you control it just as if it were your own morph. The -10 penalty is derived from remote operation without direct control, which allows you to maintain control of your own body in the process; not an issue if you're an infomorph. Anything with a cyberbrain can also be jammed, as Puppet Socks are built into them. As for fitting a ghostrider module with a cortical stack, I don't see why not. Why would it be any different?
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Because TANSTAAFL. :) If it worked better, it would already be the standard. Anyway, if you're physically resident in the robot, using a no-penalty direct control, and somehow it costs less… Suspicious. The Ghostrider wording seems to imply that it *must* be secondary to an existing primary component, so maybe they just didn't think it through?
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
My assumption is that, indeed, it was not thought through or was just made that way for balance reasons. Doesn't change the fact that, according to the rules, it's entirely acceptable. Frankly, I just plain don't know why all cyberbrains don't have the higher aptitude limit or digital speed capacity.
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
That same technique could be applied to biomorphs so why should anyone waste time sleeving into anything by that logic? Because that would make them incredibly unbalanced in comparison to biomorphs?
C-rep +1
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Biomorphs are less vulnerable to being brain-hacked, I think is the usual response. They're also inherently cheaper CP-wise; even a basic Synth costs a lot more than a Splicer, if I remember rightly. Overall, though, I don't really know why anyone would bother to sleeve into anything, myself. In terms of practicality, if I had my own way, I'd buy either a synth, fit it with a ghostrider module, and coat it with a synthetic mask, or I'd go for a spider-like form instead, but use a ghostrider module either way, as long as I could fit it to a stack. A digital form can be whatever you want it to be, after all, so why deal with that organic squishiness?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
That said, if you wanted to play one, you'd be better off just buying a Ghostrider Module and installing that in the robot, attaching a cortical stack to the module, then jamming the robot using direct wired access. That way, you're effectively an infomorph, granting you all the benefits thereof (speed bonus and aptitude maximums), while letting you keep your robot body. Not only is it overall more beneficial, it's cheaper too. It also means you can keep the bot piloted by an AI and set it to do things ("Run towards the elevator shaft!") while you release control and do things like hack a network or download yourself onto a new system, leaving the bot as a distraction.
Actually, you do not have said speed bonus while jamming. A jamming character has all the same stats he would have if he were sleeved into whatever he is jamming. They effectively have that body as their own.
Yerameyahu wrote:
Agreed. I don't think a Ghostrider can have full, primary morph control (the text implies specific devices and implants only) without also using puppet control (built in to cyberbrains in the first place). Also, can a Ghostrider have the cortical stack you suggest? My general rule is that sneaky loopholing should be punished. :D Don't you take a -10 to everything, for starters?
A ghostrider doesn't need a cortical stack, no digital mind does. The storage medium of the system is its own backup. The point of a cortical stack is to prevent information death from the termination of brain activity... but hard drive memory doesn't disappear after a cyberbrain ceases to function. All cyberbrains and infomorphs effectively have cortical stacks by merit of their hard drive backup.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
I thought the point of the cortical stack was the safe diamond storage space. That's what I'm focusing on, anyway.
sjmcc13 sjmcc13's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Yerameyahu wrote:
I thought the point of the cortical stack was the safe diamond storage space. That's what I'm focusing on, anyway.
Same here, the purpose of the stack is that it is hard to destroy and easily removed/carried.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
In addition, I think you'll find that residents of the EP universe agree: all the Synthetic Morphs have Cortical Stacks listed as standard mods. :)
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Decivre wrote:
Actually, you do not have said speed bonus while jamming. A jamming character has all the same stats he would have if he were sleeved into whatever he is jamming. They effectively have that body as their own.
Now, see, I have to disagree with that. While I'm sure bonuses to things like REF and SOM increase with the morph, I do not think you lose your host bonuses. Would it make any sense for a Remade jamming a loading machine to suddenly become an idiot? Jamming just lets you assume direct control ([i]Neutralize Commander Shepard![/i]) of a body by projecting your sensorium, no different from a VR game does.
Decivre wrote:
A ghostrider doesn't need a cortical stack, no digital mind does. The storage medium of the system is its own backup. The point of a cortical stack is to prevent information death from the termination of brain activity... but hard drive memory doesn't disappear after a cyberbrain ceases to function. All cyberbrains and infomorphs effectively have cortical stacks by merit of their hard drive backup.
All synthmorphs have cortical stacks. Unless you're arguing that their cyberbrains are encased in diamond, I think the game disagrees with you there. That said, I agree that it would make more sense just to encase the cyberbrain, rather than deal with cortical stacks. They'd not be that different in size either, after all. I'd be willing to think of it like that, really, myself.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
I dunno. It does seem that if you're jamming it 'as if it were your body', you should at the very least obey Aptitude Max rules. Again, something for nothing is a bad assumption; after all, which Aptitudes are 'mental' and which are 'physical'? If you're claiming any bonuses, you have to take the penalties.
Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
What matters is [i]what platform your mind is running on[/i]. Think of it like software; the morph you are in is the platform your mind is currently running on, it doesn't matter where it is getting its sense data from. It doesn't make sense for some argonaut in a Menton, jamming a robot deep inside some alien cave, to somehow lose his cognitive faculties just because he's currently piloting a drone remotely. Cognative substrate matters; everything is a matter of IO and control. Those might impose penalties to actions, but won't affect the character's actual attribute maximums.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
I agree. So why would you *get bonuses* if it doesn't make sense to get penalties? :) Let's talk about the 'situational' penalties anyway, though. If you're jamming a roboflea, how does the game resolve the difference between your SOM 40 and the tiny bot's physical abilities, for example? REF, SAV, etc.? Something definitely is happening here, and the Aptitude Max is (AFAIK) to normal system the game uses to resolve it, right? It's all very tricky. :/
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Double post. Odd, it told me 'Page Not Found' the first try.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Hurrah, you found one of the -other- parts of EP that needs GM management. I resolved this by applying only the jammed morphs aptitude maximums and speed trait to the jammer. It keeps the math reasonably simple, and stops Infomorph jammers from exploiting the shit out of their 3 speed. Everything else is taken from the jammers normal, primary morph.
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Double Post
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Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
I just had a flash of an idea that might solve this and add the perfect answer to this all. An Infomorph's digital speed always struck me as inherently problematic; they run at high speeds because their minds are digital, but so is any entity in a cyberbrain, right? But then I realized that an Infomorph's digital mind is not hindered by meatspace speed delays. Their minds run super-fast for coordinating data, but they're not any necessarily quicker than anyone else is in the physical world; they have to run at the same speed for proper physical feedback, more or less. Hence, an Infomorph jamming a body has the speed of a person inhabiting that body, but can use their extra actions for purely mental/mesh actions. This reflects the Infomorph's digital nature and resolves the problems of jamming. That said, I still wonder why all cyberbrains don't get such a bonus, but this offers a neat compromise. As for bonuses/penalties/aptitude maximums of a jammed body, I'd figure that a body that any non-mental enhancements and penalties do apply. SOM, COO, and REF would be the three that these are applied to, bonuses, penalties, and maximums alike.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Are you sure that SAV isn't non-mental (not that most people jam robots to Persuade)? Aren't all the Aptitudes fundamentally mental and physical? After all, a 'bare' ego has aptitudes, for one thing, but respiration augmentations give +SOM, for example. I mentioned earlier that this distinction isn't so easy as you'd need. That's not to say impossible, and I agree that the ones you mentioned would be the first place for the GM to look. :) I also agree that limiting 'physical' Speed is the best quick-and-dirty fix. While it's true that really everyone should get those extra mental actions, we also know that they're only good for combat hacking anyway.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
SAV is a person's charisma and natural skill at interactions. While this can be effectively a physically effected quality, the game tends to allow for this to take the form of alternate qualities (Striking Looks, Enhanced Pheromones, etc.). You're right, though; attributes do have both a physical and mental feature. For a quick and dirty fix, as you say, I'd just go, more or less, with SOM, COO, and REF, with other considerations as warranted. Also, as has been noted in another thread, you can do a lot more than just combat hacking.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
I didn't agree with any of those 'lot more'. In any case, it's important to downplay the advantage of this rules abuse unless you want it to be punished, right? ;) It *is* bothersome that Aptitudes aren't merely mental. Alas.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Now, see, I have to disagree with that. While I'm sure bonuses to things like REF and SOM increase with the morph, I do not think you lose your host bonuses. Would it make any sense for a Remade jamming a loading machine to suddenly become an idiot? Jamming just lets you assume direct control ([i]Neutralize Commander Shepard![/i]) of a body by projecting your sensorium, no different from a VR game does.
I agree that it's similar to VR, and when you enter a simulspace you lose all of your morph bonuses as well (Simulmorphs, page 262 of core book). I work under the assumption that the same occurs when you jam another body.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
All synthmorphs have cortical stacks. Unless you're arguing that their cyberbrains are encased in diamond, I think the game disagrees with you there. That said, I agree that it would make more sense just to encase the cyberbrain, rather than deal with cortical stacks. They'd not be that different in size either, after all. I'd be willing to think of it like that, really, myself.
The cyberbrain doesn't need to be encased in diamond, just the hard drive. More importantly, a cyberbrain's hard drive functions far differently than a cortical stack would; while a cortical stack has to translate biological functions into a digital backup of your mind at high speeds (1 backup per second), the cyberbrain's hard drive simply takes the digital data as its fed to it. It might even backup far more often than a biological cortical stack. So to sum up, a cyberbrain has a hard drive that basically has the same purpose as a cortical stack, and might have many of its advantages (easy to remove, armored for durability), but can not possibly function the same way. It might even be the primary memory storage for the cyberbrain, unlike a biological brain's cortical stack.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Except for the fact that cyberbrain morphs (synthetics) *do* specifically come with cortical stacks, and there are no rules for diamond-armored 'hard drives'. :)
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Decivre wrote:
I agree that it's similar to VR, and when you enter a simulspace you lose all of your morph bonuses as well (Simulmorphs, page 262 of core book). I work under the assumption that the same occurs when you jam another body.
I disagree on the intention of the statement made in that section. The characters don't lose their bonuses, because they're still sleeved, and running, on the brain they're using. It's just that any physical attributes they might have had (Durability, for example) are erased because they're no longer piloting that body. Same reason that, when piloting a robot, you use its Durability and not your own. The Simulmorph section only talks about how you interact with the simulation (it explicitly says so), not any changes to your existing stats.
Decivre wrote:
The cyberbrain doesn't need to be encased in diamond, just the hard drive. More importantly, a cyberbrain's hard drive functions far differently than a cortical stack would; while a cortical stack has to translate biological functions into a digital backup of your mind at high speeds (1 backup per second), the cyberbrain's hard drive simply takes the digital data as its fed to it. It might even backup far more often than a biological cortical stack.
The question of "need" doesn't enter into this, it'd run the same either way. It's just common sense that, if you're going that far, you might as well go the rest of the way. Frankly, if I were a cyberbrain designer, I'd build them that way and include an emergency power supply. That way, if the morph is ever damaged or destroyed, the ego inside can download off of it and into another system. It makes sure that they can escape in the event of an emergency.
Decivre wrote:
So to sum up, a cyberbrain has a hard drive that basically has the same purpose as a cortical stack, and might have many of its advantages (easy to remove, armored for durability), but can not possibly function the same way. It might even be the primary memory storage for the cyberbrain, unlike a biological brain's cortical stack.
Yerameyahu wrote:
Except for the fact that cyberbrain morphs (synthetics) *do* specifically come with cortical stacks, and there are no rules for diamond-armored 'hard drives'. :)
You're both talking about more or less the same thing. The only error I have to point out, Decivre, is that cortical stacks are always closed systems for security purposes, and are designed so as to not be able to access them until they are removed. Using them as a hard drive, which has to be accessed regularly, makes them very vulnerable to hacking. However, it's otherwise the same idea. At the end of the day, biomorph or synth, the cortical stack means the same thing, even though data is recorded differently; it's still a grape-sized piece of diamond-coated storage. I'm not sure what the point is of bickering over it.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
So, are we saying that morph apt limits are 100% the function of brain limitations? What about the SOM limits, e.g. Neotenic? If something is body-based, it should be negatively affected by jamming. I can see everything except COG, WIL, and maybe INT being limited this way. No argument: they explicitly *do* have Cortical Stacks, and cyberbrains are never mentioned as having a capacity redundant with that mod.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
I'm saying that anything that effects the ego is kept (so COG, WIL, INT, COO, maybe SAV, speed but only for mesh/thought actions, sanity, etc.) while other things (like SOM, REF, Durability, etc.) are dependent on the body. The mind is staying where it is and is unaffected, so, say, for whatever reason, you're using a puppet sock installed in a modified Menton; you'd not get the mental bonuses from that.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Why SOM and not SAV (just for example)? Durability is the only truly solid one. We don't need to argue about COG and WIL, either… probably. After all, morphs can give bonuses to those (must be in the brain). If you really want to rigorously divide mental (ego-home) Apts from physical (host) Apts, you'll want to be 'fair' about it. No free lunch. The game does *not* make this easy, because not all the Apts are obviously mental, physical, or both. Augmentations only make it worse.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Because SAV represents persuasiveness. A lot of persuasiveness is both physical and mental, so I'm not really sure where to place it, but I'm willing to lean slightly more towards mental. You don't have to be immensely attractive to be charismatic, though it helps. As for making it easy, remember that players must pay for or otherwise acquire every morph they get (unless they're a Flat or Infomorph). Nothing is free about this. Plus, it does explicitly state that it's quite common for Infomorphs, AGIs especially, to primarily interact with the world through a swarm of bots. It's pretty much expected.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
… the game doesn't make it easy to decide which aptitudes are 100% mental, which are 100% physical, etc. I dunno what that has to do with buying morphs. :) Anyway, it should be easy ('aptitudes' are mental skills), but there's a lot of physical interaction to mess things up. That's all.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
I disagree on the intention of the statement made in that section. The characters don't lose their bonuses, because they're still sleeved, and running, on the brain they're using. It's just that any physical attributes they might have had (Durability, for example) are erased because they're no longer piloting that body. Same reason that, when piloting a robot, you use its Durability and not your own. The Simulmorph section only talks about how you interact with the simulation (it explicitly says so), not any changes to your existing stats.
It changes your stats within the simulation. In that same vein, jamming changes your stats within the jammed morph/shell. Ceasing to jam allows you to use all your normal stats within your sleeved body, but those benefits do not help you while jamming another. In a sense, think of simulspace as "jamming an infomorph".
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
The question of "need" doesn't enter into this, it'd run the same either way. It's just common sense that, if you're going that far, you might as well go the rest of the way. Frankly, if I were a cyberbrain designer, I'd build them that way and include an emergency power supply. That way, if the morph is ever damaged or destroyed, the ego inside can download off of it and into another system. It makes sure that they can escape in the event of an emergency.
The problem with casing an object is that it becomes more and more prohibitive as the object gets bigger. A hard drive or cortical stack that's the size of a grape is far easier to create a protective barrier for than something the size of a human brain (which is 150 times larger).
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
You're both talking about more or less the same thing. The only error I have to point out, Decivre, is that cortical stacks are always closed systems for security purposes, and are designed so as to not be able to access them until they are removed. Using them as a hard drive, which has to be accessed regularly, makes them very vulnerable to hacking. However, it's otherwise the same idea. At the end of the day, biomorph or synth, the cortical stack means the same thing, even though data is recorded differently; it's still a grape-sized piece of diamond-coated storage. I'm not sure what the point is of bickering over it.
Actually, the cortical stack also has to be accessed regularly. It makes a backup of the entire ego once per second, 86,400 times a day. As a system administrator, I can say with 100% absolute certainty that it is physically impossible to back something up on data storage without accessing them. This means that the cortical stack is accessed for data input once per second.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Because SAV represents persuasiveness. A lot of persuasiveness is both physical and mental, so I'm not really sure where to place it, but I'm willing to lean slightly more towards mental. You don't have to be immensely attractive to be charismatic, though it helps. As for making it easy, remember that players must pay for or otherwise acquire every morph they get (unless they're a Flat or Infomorph). Nothing is free about this. Plus, it does explicitly state that it's quite common for Infomorphs, AGIs especially, to primarily interact with the world through a swarm of bots. It's pretty much expected.
All aptitudes are mental... otherwise, physical aptitudes would be incapable of being transferred during a resleeve. At the same time, all aptitudes are influenced by your choice of morph... the futura alters willpower, and the sylph alters savvy. Look around enough, and you'll find at least one morph that alters every single aptitude. I don't think we can use that as a gauge for deciding which aptitudes are "physical".
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Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Decivre wrote:
It changes your stats within the simulation. In that same vein, jamming changes your stats within the jammed morph/shell. Ceasing to jam allows you to use all your normal stats within your sleeved body, but those benefits do not help you while jamming another. In a sense, think of simulspace as "jamming an infomorph".
It changes your stats in the simulation in the context of your physical capacities, not your mental ones (unless you count simulated psychic powers and the like). The same is said for jamming a morph. Taking mental control of a Servitor will not suddenly make you dumber, though it will limit how quick and strong you are.
Decivre wrote:
The problem with casing an object is that it becomes more and more prohibitive as the object gets bigger. A hard drive or cortical stack that's the size of a grape is far easier to create a protective barrier for than something the size of a human brain (which is 150 times larger).
I think you have your numbers wrong. An average to large grape can range to around 4cm in length and about 2 cm in width. The average human brain lxwxh is 16x14x9cm, if I remember rightly. Yes, the volume increases significantly in that size difference, but remember that it's surface area we're considering, not volume, and you need not coat the nooks and crannies that would be there in a fleshy substrate. In short, I don't think the overall cost difference would be that extreme, especially with nano-fabrication.
Decivre wrote:
Actually, the cortical stack also has to be accessed regularly. It makes a backup of the entire ego once per second, 86,400 times a day. As a system administrator, I can say with 100% absolute certainty that it is physically impossible to back something up on data storage without accessing them. This means that the cortical stack is accessed for data input once per second.
I meant in the sense that data cannot be put in or retrieved from the stack outside of its predesigned use. A cortical stack in a biomorph has one, and precisely one, controllable function accessible by its owner, and that's to turn it on or off. Other than that, you have to physically remove it to access its features. I doubt it'd be any different in synthmorphs. If you allow it so that other things can be installed into the stack or that it can be otherwise altered outside its regular programming, you're making an obvious target out of what is essentially your safety line in the event of an emergency.
Decivre wrote:
All aptitudes are mental... otherwise, physical aptitudes would be incapable of being transferred during a resleeve. At the same time, all aptitudes are influenced by your choice of morph... the futura alters willpower, and the sylph alters savvy. Look around enough, and you'll find at least one morph that alters every single aptitude. I don't think we can use that as a gauge for deciding which aptitudes are "physical".
The problem with that is, some things are decidedly physical. Case in point: SOM. Muscle augmentation increases your SOM. This doesn't mean that your mental skill at using that muscle isn't also determining it, SOM does have a mental factor, but it also represents brute strength. COG, meanwhile, represents intelligence and capacity for creativity. The physical component for this, though, is on the brain in which your ego is running. When jamming, your ego is still running on your morph's brain, it's merely your sensorium that is being projected.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
It changes your stats in the simulation in the context of your physical capacities, not your mental ones (unless you count simulated psychic powers and the like). The same is said for jamming a morph. Taking mental control of a Servitor will not suddenly make you dumber, though it will limit how quick and strong you are.
In that same vein though, resleeving into an inferior morph does not make you dumber... the morph inhibits your abilities, but you retain them. I think that's the point of aptitude caps... you aren't less intelligent in a flat, but your brain does not process at the same pace and capacity it can in a much better morph. The same is probably true when you jam... as you are jammed in the new body, your ability to function is inhibited to whatever limitations the jammed body has. On the other hand, when you jam a superior morph (or go into a simulspace where you are enhanced), your mind feels liberated and capable of doing more.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
I think you have your numbers wrong. An average to large grape can range to around 4cm in length and about 2 cm in width. The average human brain lxwxh is 16x14x9cm, if I remember rightly. Yes, the volume increases significantly in that size difference, but remember that it's surface area we're considering, not volume, and you need not coat the nooks and crannies that would be there in a fleshy substrate. In short, I don't think the overall cost difference would be that extreme, especially with nano-fabrication.
I went by the statistic given on wikipedia that states that the average size of a female human brain is 1130 cm³, a male human brain 1260 cm³, and the assumption that a grape is about 8 cm³ (couldn't find a hard stat on that). The total is just over 149, just under 150. The important factor though is that any protective structure needs to take into account the size of the object within. As size increases, surface area increases slower than volume... and by property, mass. As such, protecting an entire cyberbrain will take significantly more material and more advanced processes than simply encasing a tiny hard drive. I'll go one further, and say that the majority of the grape-sized cortical stack (or cyberbrain equivalent) is the protective casing, because data storage densities have become so vast that large amounts of space are no longer needed.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
I meant in the sense that data cannot be put in or retrieved from the stack outside of its predesigned use. A cortical stack in a biomorph has one, and precisely one, controllable function accessible by its owner, and that's to turn it on or off. Other than that, you have to physically remove it to access its features. I doubt it'd be any different in synthmorphs. If you allow it so that other things can be installed into the stack or that it can be otherwise altered outside its regular programming, you're making an obvious target out of what is essentially your safety line in the event of an emergency.
And yet, cyberbrains can have their memories hacked, which directly refutes your claim that they are this secure. Normal cortical stacks are this secure because they interface with the biological brain, and therefore do not need to have some universally-compatical protocol. Cyberbrains are, at their heart, specialized computer processors, and have all the inherent flaws that come with it.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
The problem with that is, some things are decidedly physical. Case in point: SOM. Muscle augmentation increases your SOM. This doesn't mean that your mental skill at using that muscle isn't also determining it, SOM does have a mental factor, but it also represents brute strength. COG, meanwhile, represents intelligence and capacity for creativity. The physical component for this, though, is on the brain in which your ego is running. When jamming, your ego is still running on your morph's brain, it's merely your sensorium that is being projected.
But again, the issue isn't so decided. If SOM is purely a physical trait, why is it not directly tied to your morph? Why does it transfer with your ego? The aptitudes are likely purely mental elements... which is probably why they are called [i]aptitudes[/i] and not attributes. SOM isn't a measure of physical strength, but rather your mind's ability to utilize strength if it is present. This is why a weak morph limits your SOM aptitude (SOM only helps if you have the muscle to utilize it), and a strong morph gives you a bonus to it (think of it as similar to an equipment bonus; the enhanced muscles make things easier for someone who is already an athlete, and possible for those who aren't). While those bonuses and limitations can be seen as the physical element of that aptitude (and the physical element of any aptitude for that matter), the base aptitude of the ego itself is purely mental.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
My point is that the mechanic already has a system (a little clunky, actually, but nonetheless) in place for dealing with Apt/Morph interactions. It has no system (and no easy way to make one) for dealing with 'when jamming, you're only affected by physical things'. The easiest, simplest, fastest solution is to treat jamming as resleeving. This is obviously not a perfect solution, and may very well not be the best one. It's definitely the quickest, though. :) Problems: you can jam things that don't even have cyberbrains (just socks), it's obviously *not* the same as resleeving; it does make you dumber, which might be a problem; and so on.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Decivre wrote:
In that same vein though, resleeving into an inferior morph does not make you dumber... the morph inhibits your abilities, but you retain them. I think that's the point of aptitude caps... you aren't less intelligent in a flat, but your brain does not process at the same pace and capacity it can in a much better morph. The same is probably true when you jam... as you are jammed in the new body, your ability to function is inhibited to whatever limitations the jammed body has. On the other hand, when you jam a superior morph (or go into a simulspace where you are enhanced), your mind feels liberated and capable of doing more.
But when you jam or go into a simspace, you're not inhabiting a new morph, you're just controlling it; your sensorium is feeding and being fed data, your ego remains where it is. You are very much still sleeved in your original morph. A splicer jamming a synth isn't running on the cyberbrain, the synth's puppet sock is feeding data into the splicer's mesh inserts. It's the same with VR.
Decivre wrote:
I went by the statistic given on wikipedia that states that the average size of a female human brain is 1130 cm³, a male human brain 1260 cm³, and the assumption that a grape is about 8 cm³ (couldn't find a hard stat on that). The total is just over 149, just under 150. The important factor though is that any protective structure needs to take into account the size of the object within. As size increases, surface area increases slower than volume... and by property, mass. As such, protecting an entire cyberbrain will take significantly more material and more advanced processes than simply encasing a tiny hard drive. I'll go one further, and say that the majority of the grape-sized cortical stack (or cyberbrain equivalent) is the protective casing, because data storage densities have become so vast that large amounts of space are no longer needed.
Again, we're not talking about volume here, we're talking about surface area. The volume might be 150 times that of a grape, but the surface area will not be. Let's assume for a moment that we're dealing with rectangular prisms here for each, since it's really a lot simpler that way (I don't feel like taking precise measurements of a grape to calculate the surface area of an oblate spheroid, and I don't know where I'd get a brain from to measure). A grape would fit into a box that's, say, 4x2x2, while a brain would fit into one that's roughly 16x14x9. Their respective surface areas would be 32cm² and 988cm², a difference of a factor of just shy of 31. A significant amount, but smaller than what you suggested by a factor of five or so. Second of all, given that nanomanufacturing processes exist to allow for the building of cortical stacks inside morphs that then extend nanowires into the morph's brain, I'd say that the process of building, say, an extremely resilient synthetic diamond around a piece of hardware would not be significantly more difficult, wouldn't you agree?
Decivre wrote:
And yet, cyberbrains can have their memories hacked, which directly refutes your claim that they are this secure. Normal cortical stacks are this secure because they interface with the biological brain, and therefore do not need to have some universally-compatical protocol. Cyberbrains are, at their heart, specialized computer processors, and have all the inherent flaws that come with it.
Cyberbrains record their memories digitally and effectively have a Mnemonic Augmentation. This feeds into the stream of cortical stack data received. This does not mean that they are using the cortical stack as their primary recording system.
Decivre wrote:
But again, the issue isn't so decided. If SOM is purely a physical trait, why is it not directly tied to your morph? Why does it transfer with your ego? The aptitudes are likely purely mental elements... which is probably why they are called [i]aptitudes[/i] and not attributes. SOM isn't a measure of physical strength, but rather your mind's ability to utilize strength if it is present. This is why a weak morph limits your SOM aptitude (SOM only helps if you have the muscle to utilize it), and a strong morph gives you a bonus to it (think of it as similar to an equipment bonus; the enhanced muscles make things easier for someone who is already an athlete, and possible for those who aren't). While those bonuses and limitations can be seen as the physical element of that aptitude (and the physical element of any aptitude for that matter), the base aptitude of the ego itself is purely mental.
That's fair enough, but that doesn't really cut against what I said, does it? The aptitudes themselves are purely mental, but we're not arguing about them, we're arguing about bonuses that can be applied when jamming a shell. Your ego is running on your own meat/cyberbrain, and therefore cannot benefit from the shell's cognitive bonuses, but it can benefit from bigger, stronger muscles. Meanwhile, you can benefit from the benefits your meat/cyberbrain gives you to mental conditions, but not bonuses provided by non-cerebral things (such as those provided by Muscle Augmentation).
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Maximum of robot morphs?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
But when you jam or go into a simspace, you're not inhabiting a new morph, you're just controlling it; your sensorium is feeding and being fed data, your ego remains where it is. You are very much still sleeved in your original morph. A splicer jamming a synth isn't running on the cyberbrain, the synth's puppet sock is feeding data into the splicer's mesh inserts. It's the same with VR.
You're inhabiting a new morph so far as a computer system (and an infomorph, for that matter) can count as a morph. There's one thing you seem to be missing in all this... VR [i]is simspace[/i]. The difference is largely scholarly. A simspace is a specific VR environment, while VR is the interface you use while utilizing simspace. If jamming is a form of VR, and simspace is a form of VR, shouldn't they use similar, albeit not identical, mechanics?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Again, we're not talking about volume here, we're talking about surface area. The volume might be 150 times that of a grape, but the surface area will not be. Let's assume for a moment that we're dealing with rectangular prisms here for each, since it's really a lot simpler that way (I don't feel like taking precise measurements of a grape to calculate the surface area of an oblate spheroid, and I don't know where I'd get a brain from to measure). A grape would fit into a box that's, say, 4x2x2, while a brain would fit into one that's roughly 16x14x9. Their respective surface areas would be 32cm² and 988cm², a difference of a factor of just shy of 31. A significant amount, but smaller than what you suggested by a factor of five or so.
An increase of 150x volume produces about 28 times more surface area (in accordance with the square cube rule; doesn't take into account the difference between shapes of a brain and a grape). That would also be the key problem. You need to protect 150 times the mass with only 28 times the protective space.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Second of all, given that nanomanufacturing processes exist to allow for the building of cortical stacks inside morphs that then extend nanowires into the morph's brain, I'd say that the process of building, say, an extremely resilient synthetic diamond around a piece of hardware would not be significantly more difficult, wouldn't you agree?
It doesn't extend nanowires from what I understand; it controls a nanoswarm which sends the data back to the cortical stack. If it were a nanowire system, then there wouldn't be that latency issue that exists before the first backup within a cortical stack occurs, after resleeving (it takes 10 minutes after resleeving for a cortical stack to make the first full backup, presumably because that's how long it takes for the swarm to be fully distributed into the brain. And yes, I'd say producing a casing of synthetic diamond (or even indestructobtanium) around an object the size of a brain would still be significantly more difficult than for something the size of a grape. That's basic physics.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Cyberbrains record their memories digitally and effectively have a Mnemonic Augmentation. This feeds into the stream of cortical stack data received. This does not mean that they are using the cortical stack as their primary recording system.
It doesn't, but it's certainly a possibility. Even if they didn't, altering a cyberbrain's memories automatically alters the cortical stack attached to it the very next time its backed up... so hacking the cyberbrain hacks the cortical stack of the cyberbrain by proxy. And if that's the case, what eral incentive is there not to use the cyberbrain as your primary memory storage? And to secondarily address this, I'm not saying it should be the sole storage. All computer systems of any decent size likely have many redundancy systems to ensure system integrity. If the cortical stack of a cyberbrain were its sole memory storage, then one well-placed bullet or hit could completely prevent a cyberbrained person from remembering anything. I'd imagine that memory storage is actually some sort of RAID architecture, with the cortical stack being one of many hard drives used for memory storage.
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
That's fair enough, but that doesn't really cut against what I said, does it? The aptitudes themselves are purely mental, but we're not arguing about them, we're arguing about bonuses that can be applied when jamming a shell. Your ego is running on your own meat/cyberbrain, and therefore cannot benefit from the shell's cognitive bonuses, but it can benefit from bigger, stronger muscles. Meanwhile, you can benefit from the benefits your meat/cyberbrain gives you to mental conditions, but not bonuses provided by non-cerebral things (such as those provided by Muscle Augmentation).
How do you know that you cannot benefit from the shell's cognitive bonuses? If a shell can transmit sensations to a remote ego, couldn't it just as easily transmit thoughts, ideas and instincts? Sensations are nothing more than neural processes, and if one neural process can be wirelessly sent, why can't others? Furthermore, if physical enhancements of your meat body are the only ones not transferred, does this mean the SOM bonuses of the remade morph are?
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