Basic questions: of clones & cases

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SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Basic questions: of clones & cases

Hi:

If you clone yourself, how would the process be? How much the expense? Can said clone be a case? I wonder how "ordinary" this is in the EPverse.

Thanks!
SF

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

A 'Case', do you mean? That's a cheap synthetic morph, so no. A clone would be a grown duplicate biomorph.

The answer for biomorphs is a definite 'yes', though it may not be easy or cheap. It depends a little on the morph, but mostly on the facilities. The most common thing is for you to have your body bank people make you one for later. You'd pay (at least) full normal cost for a morph of that type.

It takes some time; there's some argument, but bio-brains seem to take at least… a year? I'll look it up again. You could probably also do it yourself with a Healing Vat, possibly a specially-modded one (house rule territory).

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Anyway, it's plenty ordinary… among those rich enough to have biomorphs and spare biomorphs.

JamesX JamesX's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

I think in the rule book it mentioned that cloning takes about 1.5-2 years.

Though it is vague about whether Bioware Implants are genetic implants (thus will be cloned also) or implanted functionalities independent of the DNA.

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Yerameyahu wrote:
A 'Case', do you mean? That's a cheap synthetic morph, so no. A clone would be a grown duplicate biomorph.

Yes, a "case - cheap synthmorph." Thanks for the clarifications! I was rather confused on what tech can do in the EPverse!

SF

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

I mean, you *can* duplicate synthetics. Easier than cloning bios. :)

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

His:

Yes, but, what if I wanted an exact replica of moi? A case wouldn't cut it, right?

SF

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

It depends on what you are. If you're a Case, then a Case could be an exact replica. :)

Are you saying that 'you' are a Splicer or something, and you want a synthetic replica? That's what Synthetic Mask (p311) is for. You could definitely do it with a Synth or something. A Case would arguably not be the right height/shape.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Getting a clone of your favorite original body might be a common desire of people. Sure, you can get biosculpting, get a mesh-order facial restructuring nanomachine injection or spend a short while in a healing vat to remodel yourself. But some people do not think this is "real". So there is a market for clones.

The cost of the clone body is presumably due to 1) the service of taking a sample cell (or, extracting DNA from something, inserting it into a host cell and getting it to start dividing), 2) culturing it into a body of the right age (requiring some force growth if you want it soon), and 3) installing the bioware, enhancements and other infrastructure that turn it into a morph. I would guess that with EP tech all these are fairly routine. 1 likely takes an hour (minor favour), 3 at most a day (moderate favour). I would assume the total effort spent during 2 is somewhere just above moderate (a few days of tending the process, finetuning development and testing things).

As I see it, healing vats can do radical force growth that builds a clone in about a week: I think the max speed of the cell cycle is about 5 divisions per hour at *really* high growth factor concentrations, while normally for fast growing human cells it is around 24 hours. To get 10^14 cells, you need 46 generations, which can be done in 9.3 hours to 46 days. Many cells also need to extend branches (axons normally grow about a millimetre per day). So a week is probably around the limit - at this point the body is more like a pod that is assembled cultured cell by cultured cell. At this extreme all the individual characteristics are due to cells being placed where they ought to be rather than having grown. Slower growth actually produces a body that is an organic unity.

Extropian

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Whatever the science, we know the RAW is 1.5-2 years for a biomorph, 0.5-1 years for a pod, accelerated.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Yerameyahu wrote:
Whatever the science, we know the RAW is 1.5-2 years for a biomorph, 0.5-1 years for a pod, accelerated.

I think this makes sense if you actually want to have nerves work. Consider that the nerves from the spinal cord to the toes are about a meter long in an adult: at normal axon growth speed that would take about 2.7 years to happen. Pods might fix things by replacing the slowest-growing parts with artificial parts (electronics for long peripheral nerves, artificial bones etc).

Extropian

Unity Unity's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

I wonder how much time and effort we could save if we stopped using biomorphs altogether?

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Scads. Biomorphs suck, which is why there's so much tension in the setting on *forcing* them to be preferred. Which is interesting, but still annoying that the synthetics (by the numbers) are often inferior.

JamesX JamesX's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

The difference between Biomorph and Synth Morph is mainly setting.

I just consider Synth Morphs information data. While Biomorphs actually have sensations.

E.g. a Synth Morph taking a sip of water, will be told in his brain that it is salty and will be interperted as "salty" but it would be dull and factual.

That is how I justify why Biomorph are preferred.

Kinda of like Data in the Borg Startrek movie. He has very good physical sensations - in all useful ways superior than a normal human. From smell, to sight, to touch, to hearing. But his sensations are way different than ours as evident to his reaction when the Borg Queen grafted that patch of skin with hair on him.

This isn't in the Books as far as I can remember, it is just how I justify it.

There are at least 1 mention of the taste sensation difference between a Pleasure Pod and a Biomorph, in the opening fiction in the Venus book that seems to support this idea.

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

I'm not sure that's justified by the setting rules, but I'm sure people in-setting *believe* that. People with believe anything, however irrational. :) People think wine that's more expensive tastes better, even if it's the same bottle.

For my money, XP data is XP data, and all egos are equivalent (AGI, uplift, whatever). This is a transhuman world, so even the biomorphs are already interpreting sensory data at a beyond-human level, incorporating all kinds of sensors and senses.

JamesX JamesX's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

The way I look at it his that - Mechanic is just that, a set of rule that interprete the world. It is in no way a full reflection of what the world is.

Just as Gruel and Filet Mignon are both nutrition, and in game mechanic terms will satisfy the "food" requirement - and have no difference other than price. Sure one can say Gruel is just as good as Filet Mignon... it might even be better because it is cheaper and is healthier for you. So why would anyone classify the latter as better or pay up the nose for it? But to anyone with sense of appreciation, they are no where near the same thing. Such things are usually what mechanics do not cover, and what the setting covers.

A Synthmorphs' 40 SOM will manifest vastly differently than a Biomorph's 40 SOM. Just as a Synthmorphs 40 COO will be very different than a Biomorph's 40 COO. Just as 2 Biomorph with 10 in Savvy will not lead identical lives or have the same level of deep relationships with others. Or that Red and Yellow are both colors, and technically game mechanically have no real difference - there for translates to no difference in actual setting.

Just a a loud mouth forceful personality might have Savvy 10, it doesn't make him equally lovable as kind considerate person who is Savvy 10. When they try to get what they want (e.g. make a roll) they are just as effective (stat wise). They would have dramatically different effects in the world social setting.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

I doubt experiences had in a synthmorph is merely "data" (shouldn't thinking by an infomorph then be mere symbolic rearrangement of meaningless bits?), but it might very well lack qualities people cherish.

Some of that lack is just imaginary or emotional, like the wine example. Cultural expectations based on earlier synthmorphs, prejudices and ideas that the more "natural" biomorphs are better will make people think that their experiences in biomorph are better. That is already a lack of quality, despite it not being based on anything objective.

But making a body feel "right" is also very hard. The brain can adapt surprisingly easily to rather odd body models, but it might be that when used to live in they do give an experience that is different from a person's original body. This is not just due to external appearance or shape, but also the internals. A lot of how it feels to be ourselves is due to quirks of our biochemistry, gut flora, physiological states and their interactions with the mechanics of the body and signals in the brain. So the synthmorph might simply make you feel like "someone else". Biomorphs might of course have exactly the same problem, but it is more common complaint for synths.

The different synth internals mean that some systems are seriously changed. Normally breathing is natural and necessary, and it affects our mood a lot (try breathing in deeply and slooooowly, or panting quickly). A synth doesn't breathe at all. Worse, it cannot breathe in - most doesn't have any lungs! If you feel the need to breathe, you can't. Feelings of asphyxiation are very hard to avoid except by directly modifying the brainstem counterpart in the cyberbrain. Hardly a nice situation.

In the long run, I think synths will become so capable that it would be absurd to remain biomorph. But that will take a long while, since what people want to *be* is just as much a matter of culture as technology.

Extropian

Unity Unity's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Smart synthmorph enthusiasts hack their brains to not emulate hunger or thirst or breathing. That helps.

LostProxy LostProxy's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

While synthmorphs have many advantages I've seen way too many get their brains hacked in game to ever want to use one unless I'm running in autistic mode.

BOMherren BOMherren's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

LostProxy wrote:
While synthmorphs have many advantages I've seen way too many get their brains hacked in game to ever want to use one unless I'm running in autistic mode.

It's not quite as bad if you're running active security, especially not if you use AI teamwork exploits and you're ready to activate autistic mode immediately if the need arises. It always takes at least several minutes for a hacker to gain control of anything, no matter how good he is, and it is highly unlikely that he be able to do so without being detected by a team of AI or Beta Forks with a total skill of 70 - 90.



Unity Unity's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Also, if you were smart enough then you would rout your mesh traffic through an ecto first.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Unity wrote:
Also, if you were smart enough then you would rout your mesh traffic through an ecto first.

How does that help? All that does is move the Master/Slave chain up one more level. If they break into your Ecto with a legit account they now have complete access to your Mesh Inserts. From there they can launch their attack on your Cyberbrain as if there was no daisy chain.

The safest approach is for the less infosec savvy members of a Firewall team to slave their own PANs to their specialists mesh inserts. As long as they are running public encryption software (Which, only costing Low, they always should be) the only way to break into the VPN is to either have access to a Quantum Computer (Which is expensive as hell) or break into a node that be extremely heavily monitored.

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Unity Unity's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

No, if they broke into your ecto you can disable wireless access to your mesh inserts because you have the warning of 'hey, someone is in your ecto!'

And then you can break the ecto so they can't get anything out of it.

Or did I misunderstand something?

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Unity wrote:
No, if they broke into your ecto you can disable wireless access to your mesh inserts because you have the warning of 'hey, someone is in your ecto!'

And then you can break the ecto so they can't get anything out of it.

Or did I misunderstand something?

What's the point of adding the Ecto then? You can do the exact same thing with your Mesh Inserts, and you dont get the added uncertainty that the hacker didnt manage to sneak a script down the chain that creates legit admin accounts for him and his buddies.

With an Ecto; The user gets an alert, puts their inserts into autistic mode and runs a checksum check on everything they have in their head. They reduce all account privileges down to user and dont change them until they are certain nothing went wrong. They also smash the Ecto up.

Without an Ecto; See above, but without the last step.

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LostProxy LostProxy's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

And this is all under the assumption that you will actually see the hack coming. If the hacker is worth the cred/rep he's getting paid he will most likely have a team of AIs assisting him as well which basically evens the playing field unless the hacker is actually good (skill 50+) which then most likely gives him the edge.

Our GM realized too late how easily this could be done when (while unnoticed) I hacked the enemies two Reaper body guards while they were chasing the parts of the team they did notice. Taking that -60 to rush the job is barely an issue when you have moxie, a specialization, high end exploits (+20), and AI assistance (+30). Hmm, good times.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

LostProxy wrote:

Our GM realized too late how easily this could be done when (while unnoticed) I hacked the enemies two Reaper body guards while they were chasing the parts of the team they did notice. Taking that -60 to rush the job is barely an issue when you have moxie, a specialization, high end exploits (+20), and AI assistance (+30). Hmm, good times.

That was your GMs lack of game knowledge more than anything else, at least in reference to the “turn off your wireless” point. I take it you were brute-force hacking your way into the Reapers? Then they should have immediately gotten an alert, been put on active countermeasures, and had the Reapers wanted to the system would automatically initiate a Wireless Termination action.

Combat hacking is hard. Extremely hard. If the target is willing to bring their wireless offline there is very little that the hacker can do to stop them. So the best a hacker can really hope for against a prepared target is to shut down their tacnets and comms. So the best a combat hacker can do is remove a +10-+20 modifier, and to do that they probably have to sink at least a turn or two of action. Only really useful if you are pinned down and there is a calm in the fight. Otherwise you are better off just shooting at the bastards.

EDIT: Having only just woken up, rereading that I notice I make the presumption that you are brute force hacking. Probably a mistake, I guess a skilled enough hacker could bring the time frame of a normal hack low enough for it to be viable. But not particularly reliably. Your hacking time would range from 1-4 minutes, which isn't really a useful scale when we are talking about Reapers, who can take 40-160 actions in that time frame.

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LostProxy LostProxy's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

3 minutes of in game time and the team was running from them. Keeping stuff between you and the enemy while free running isn't that hard actually. Especially if your on full defense the entire time. In the 3 minutes they ran I hacked in without being noticed, locked both egos, and then loaded a couple of rapid response combat forks. Quick explanation, in our game rapid response forks are forks designed to be loaded and used quickly (away from book but it's the quality that boosts tests for sleeving. Level determined by cost) and then further specialized with a specific skill set. In this case combat. To be fair we were rolling pretty well that night.

EDIT: I should say in those 3 minutes everything was done but the loading of forks. That had to be done by hand but was done by another players character. Mine was tracking the guy and making sure he thought his Reapers were still operating.

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Still, even with extreme 'optimization', they could have done something. Be nice to new GMs. :P

LostProxy LostProxy's picture
Re: Basic questions: of clones & cases

Of course. I'm not merciless all the time :P The GM just was rolling decently but a liberal application of Moxie kept the crits coming. I was willing to invest heavily to score a couple of Reapers to fight for us. We were smart enough to switch to laser communication to prevent a counter hacking. After that event the GM was using a lot more laser based communication as well. Not all the time but definitely a lot more.