Basic question about forking, continued!

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SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Basic question about forking, continued!

Hiyas!

A quick continuation on forking:
Can you fork someone w/out their consent (I think yes)? How? Utilising the same forking rules, per RAW?

Thanks!
SF

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Oh yes, a million times yes.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Not normally. It is a bit like making a copy of their contents of their cellphone. The cortical stack *should* be firmly under their control, behind firewalls and maybe with safeguards making it impossible to copy the contents without either hardware access or that the command to copy clearly comes from inside the brain.

However, as we all know, security is never as good as it should be. People send backups to their backup servers - are those servers at reputable companies, does the transmission have state-of-the-art encryption with no exploits? There are active forks moving from system to system: are all these systems implementing the right ego protection protocols, or are some of them run by disreputable people or corps? Your mental protection software, when did you upgrade it last? And please don't tell me you let your muse install the Davison Dancing Duck software to "cheer up" your AR - it roots your mindware like crazy!

Basically, I think forknapping is a bit of a challenge but not too impossible. Hack your way into somebody to become hidden in their neural processing and copy their mindstate (remember to hide the heavy file transfer from them and their muse, though). Make sure their fork runs on a machine you have compromised. Find an exploit in the backup software to re-route the backup.

Extropian

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Hiyas!

Hmmm. Two diametrically opposed views... Maybe an official answer will come handy (hint hint)?

Thanks!
SF

MirrorField MirrorField's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

IMHO yes, though there are couple caveats:

*You'll probably need physical access to the person in question. Remember that the cortical stack is mostly isolated from the rest of the implants, has extremely paranoid hard-wired firmware, doesn't have wireless access and even TITANs have difficulties hacking the "air gap" without physical access.

*Most people and polities take an extremely dim view on forknapping, backup theft and the like. In general, this is a category of crime that tends to draw harshest of penalties and lots of effort by official authorities.

*Most people are paranoid regarding access to their backups. Most people use One-Time Pads or quantum crypto to send their backup updates, keep careful count on who has copies of their backups and so on. IMHO the main reason egocasts are so expensive is because of the multiple layers of security people insist on!

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Those two answers *aren't* opposite. :) You can certainly fork someone without their consent, but that doesn't mean it's easy or convenient.

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Two opposing views by educated posters ... Clearly the only solution is to weigh their opinions based on ... the awesomeness of their icons. (In case it's not clear, my icon is two astronauts high-fiving on the moon. If you zoom in, you can also see a dinosaur on a skateboard in the background.)

Really though, I think Aremenantounsaurus is talking about taking a fork discretely, by somehow hacking the brain. IMO, if you physically grab the fellow, strap him down and attach an ego bridge (or rip out his cortical stack), there isn't much he can do to stop you.

This also makes for some interesting interrogation methods, since you can just keep forking the dude and absolutely bashing him in in front of himself. I don't know if it would be effective, but it would be some nice ultraviolence.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Two opposing views by educated posters ... Clearly the only solution is to weigh their opinions based on ... the awesomeness of their icons. (In case it's not clear, my icon is two astronauts high-fiving on the moon. If you zoom in, you can also see a dinosaur on a skateboard in the background.)

I just have a self-organized sandpile. You win.

Quote:

Really though, I think Aremenantounsaurus is talking about taking a fork discretely, by somehow hacking the brain. IMO, if you physically grab the fellow, strap him down and attach an ego bridge (or rip out his cortical stack), there isn't much he can do to stop you.

Yes, direct forknapping, stack theft or forcible uploading requires slightly different defenses. I can see various approaches, including the ever popular emergency farcaster. "You can't catch me... BOOM!!!"

Quote:

This also makes for some interesting interrogation methods, since you can just keep forking the dude and absolutely bashing him in in front of himself. I don't know if it would be effective, but it would be some nice ultraviolence.

And stress points. Actually demonstrating that you can interrogate forks endlessly shows that it is pointless to resist: sooner or later one of them will reveal the information. So why not make it easier for everybody?

Extropian

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Wow!
Now I'm thinking about how PISSED I'd be when the cops interrogating me told me that the me2.0 in the other interrogation room just dropped dime and cut a deal for a plea bargain. That fucking RAT Bastard! This game is weird.

So, Senor Fase, which type of forknapping were you concerned about? Forced forking (which would really be forced 'uploading') or stealthy ego theft of an alpha fork?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Googleshng Googleshng's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

For that particular interrogation method, why even bother forking? You can just torture the original to death, resleeve, repeat. Still kind of an expensive and inefficient way to go given some of the other options, but hey.

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

We want inf-or-ma-tion...

By hook or by crook...

SF
B C-ing U

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

OneTrikPony wrote:
Wow!
Now I'm thinking about how PISSED I'd be when the cops interrogating me told me that the me2.0 in the other interrogation room just dropped dime and cut a deal for a plea bargain. That fucking RAT Bastard! This game is weird.

So, Senor Fase, which type of forknapping were you concerned about? Forced forking (which would really be forced 'uploading') or stealthy ego theft of an alpha fork?

I was thinking of a scenario were the commodity to steal would be a performance artist that "couldn't be bought", let's say a Scummer... So, kidnapping the artist himself, then forking him/her to have a copy to entertain you forever... Those hyperelites are soooo cute!

Seemed good within my brain...
SF

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

LOL! the possibilites are Endless.

I've always wanted my own personal Stripper.

Or it would be tottaly awesome if I could sneak an alpha fork of my wife to practice arguements on till I find one that wins then use it on the real wife. (she keeps score.)

! I could find an argument that would convince her to let me have my Own Personal Stripper!!! Or at least convince her to let me keep the half a truck that's sitting in my back yard. :D

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

OneTrikPony wrote:
LOL! the possibilites are Endless.

I've always wanted my own personal Stripper.

Or it would be tottaly awesome if I could sneak an alpha fork of my wife to practice arguements on till I find one that wins then use it on the real wife. (she keeps score.)

! I could find an argument that would convince her to let me have my Own Personal Stripper!!! Or at least convince her to let me keep the half a truck that's sitting in my back yard. :D

Deer 1-Trix:

I dunno if you're laffin w/or at me...!

SF

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

SEÑOR FASE wrote:
OneTrikPony wrote:
LOL! the possibilites are Endless.

I've always wanted my own personal Stripper.

Or it would be tottaly awesome if I could sneak an alpha fork of my wife to practice arguements on till I find one that wins then use it on the real wife. (she keeps score.)

! I could find an argument that would convince her to let me have my Own Personal Stripper!!! Or at least convince her to let me keep the half a truck that's sitting in my back yard. :D

Deer 1-Trix:

I dunno if you're laffin w/or at me...!

SF


OOPS. Sorry dude. I'm laughin at me and the collective us.
Spoiler: Highlight to view

Your comment about capturing your own personal performance artist brought to mind the joke I have with my wife about 'my own personal stripper'. That's what I always ask for for christmass and birthdays. ;)

It just struck me as ironic that the application of forking was gradually taken from a serious technology with massive potential social benefit, to How can we use this to kidnap someone, to a slightly more petty how can I get my own personal performance artist, to how can I get my own stripper and manipulate my wife. :D

I am highly amused by the idea that ARPAnet is now primarily used to transfer porn and tweets.

If you look at any keystone technology with literally endless posibilities and want to figure out what it's effect on society and human evolution will be it's usually most accurate to think of the most petty and silly way it could possibly be applied. LOL :D
I just love that about humanity. We're friken silly, and that's awesome.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

...here's an interesting spin on that bit about police interrogations.

From what I read, forks have no legal rights whatsoever.

So the cops could make a fork of you (with or without your consent), and they could basicly do whatever they want to it because it's just 'property'


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Gaming Location: Brisbane, Australia

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

I'm not sure you're working with valid assumptions there, even if stealing from you is something the cops are allowed to do. (Also, what cops?) :) Besides, all forks begin as alpha forks (the ones that are full 'people'), then undergo a relatively lengthy process of pruning. Not really conducive to timely interrogation.

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

What cops?

Well depends where you are I guess. I imagine that the inner system tends to have more organised security forces - and also more rules and laws in place.

Outer system is more or less anything goes, regardless :)


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Gaming Location: Brisbane, Australia

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Just teasing. :) Still, I'm not sure about this 'forks aren't people' idea. If lawful authorities are duplicating *you* (and they are), then why would would the rights be different? This is also assuming they're allowed to make an alpha fork, with or without your permission. The places that are likely to have 'cops' and something like due process are also the places that ban alpha forks, right?

This is all assuming there *is* something like due process; I'm inclined to assume hypercorps can do anything they want.

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

"Beta forks rarely have anything resembling civil rights or citizenship and are usually treated as the property of the originating ego." - EP Core, 273.


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Gaming Location: Brisbane, Australia

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Like I said… the theoretical cops are stealing and searching your property, *and* beta forks are made by pruning an alpha fork. Which apparently they also made by copying your very person against your will. :) Sounds like several amendments being shredded, if anything like them exists.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

There is of course a downside to using forks for interrogations. By RAW, they are quite likely to be at least a little bit insane. Average WIL is 15, so a beta fork has a WIL of 10. So they have a 69% chance of failing their continuity test. Every MoF adds 1SV. Beta forks will be taking, if you are feeling Rulesy, 1d10/2 + 1d10/2 + 2SV (Short Memory loss of a minute, Continuity break, Is a Fork) or an average of 7SV before MoF/MoS.

Beta forks have a TT of 4, so they are quite likely to have at least a minor derangement. If they are even the slightest bit unlucky it is a moderate derangement. If they really roll badly they can fairly easy pick up a disorder. I am not sure about you, but using a half deranged, inbicilec shadow of a person for interrogation seems like a bad idea.

Funny how the rules seem to suggest that only the most wilful of people can ever actually get away with beta forking, isn't it? God help you if you want to use Delta forks. They are even more likely to go insane. In fact I think it is literally impossible for your average person to make a Delta fork that doesnt have a disorder :]

-

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Typically, they also have a lot of memory edited out. But that's part of the pruning process: it's intentional. If we were talking about someone stealing a preexisting beta fork, that's one thing. But they can't just 'make a beta fork' of someone directly.

mickykitsune mickykitsune's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Well i dunno about that. A fork is made by pruning and then activating a backup of your ego - who's to say that you even need to be there? They could get a copy of your backup out of the bank, prune it down to beta level in order to comply with the law (or whatever), and then have their way with it, without you even knowing about it.

Hold on, I'm writing that down, thats gold. :)


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Gaming Location: Brisbane, Australia

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

See, now we're talking. That's only theft and willful mind damage of a full person (backup alpha) in order to circumvent the law (hypothetical, of course). So… yeah, same number of broken laws, a staggering miscarriage of justice.

It's a side note, but I have no idea if you can can do psychosurgery on a 'non-active' alpha fork, if you *must*, or whatever in between; the point is that whether or not it's 'running' hardly matters in this scenario.

I'm just saying that these are things that can be done, but they're specifically *not* things that can be done by the people who would need to do them. :) If you're willing to steal, copy, and lobotomize someone… why not just interrogate *them*? It's like suggesting that you torture a man's brother… for the reason that you legally can't/shouldn't torture the first man. :D

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

The books clearly state that alphas are regarded as persons in the inner system and betas have no rights. Interrogating an alpha is equivalent to interrogating the person, but that also means the alpha has to be returned to the person afterwards for a merge - somewhat problematic if it was gained through unlawful means. If it turns out that an organisation has been deleting alpha forks of citizens it will be in trouble (remember that the PC is a democracy and that public opinion does matter, as in the case of the Morningstar Secession).

Betas are another matter and entirely possible to do whatever you like with - but they are edited, so they might not know what the original knew and might indeed have false information. They are evidence, but not reliable evidence. So from a legal standpoint interrogating a beta might just give you probable cause to interrogate the original.

Yerameyahu wrote:
This is all assuming there *is* something like due process; I'm inclined to assume hypercorps can do anything they want.

No, then they wouldn't be hypercorps. Corporations *need* the rule of law to function, otherwise the assumptions (property rights, contracts, trust in institutions) they are built on vanish. Sure, they might cheat sometimes and certainly try to get laws to their benefit passed, but without due process their legal department will be powerless.

The real lawlessness (or rather, "might makes right") is found at the smaller independent polities and in the outer system. Due process at Legba is probably "whatever gains Nine Lives the most", and due process at Phelan's Recourse is "what the current community meeting comes up with". That can change from week to week, and by who is visiting.

Extropian

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

That seems very naive, Arenamontanous. ;) They only need the appearance of law to function, in service of the powerful. But, I was teasing and it's off-topic, so don't worry about it. :)

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Arenamontanus wrote:
The books clearly state that alphas are regarded as persons in the inner system and betas have no rights. Interrogating an alpha is equivalent to interrogating the person, but that also means the alpha has to be returned to the person afterwards for a merge - somewhat problematic if it was gained through unlawful means. If it turns out that an organisation has been deleting alpha forks of citizens it will be in trouble (remember that the PC is a democracy and that public opinion does matter, as in the case of the Morningstar Secession).

Betas are another matter and entirely possible to do whatever you like with - but they are edited, so they might not know what the original knew and might indeed have false information. They are evidence, but not reliable evidence. So from a legal standpoint interrogating a beta might just give you probable cause to interrogate the original.

Yerameyahu wrote:
This is all assuming there *is* something like due process; I'm inclined to assume hypercorps can do anything they want.

No, then they wouldn't be hypercorps. Corporations *need* the rule of law to function, otherwise the assumptions (property rights, contracts, trust in institutions) they are built on vanish. Sure, they might cheat sometimes and certainly try to get laws to their benefit passed, but without due process their legal department will be powerless.

The real lawlessness (or rather, "might makes right") is found at the smaller independent polities and in the outer system. Due process at Legba is probably "whatever gains Nine Lives the most", and due process at Phelan's Recourse is "what the current community meeting comes up with". That can change from week to week, and by who is visiting.

Hiyas!

There's a great eye-opener of a film called "The Corporation" I believe you need to watch, mein freund.

SF

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Yerameyahu wrote:
That seems very naive, Arenamontanous. ;) They only need the appearance of law to function, in service of the powerful. But, I was teasing and it's off-topic, so don't worry about it. :)

Actually, I do think *you* are naive about this. Try asking economists or political scientists about the role of the rule of law in maintaining corporations, and you will see.

This is actually related to a pet annoyance I have with many rpgs (and fiction in general): they do not understand the complexities of real economics, law and politics. Novels use feudalism in space despite the necessary preconditions being absent - likely because people can relate to knights and counts better than the bureaucracies that actually do a better job. Most evil megacorps in science fiction do not make economic sense. These days people recognize that jungle planets where every animal is a man-eating predator are ecologically silly; they do not seem to recognize that the standard cyberpunk world-view is just as silly economically. Companies exist to produce shareholder profits, and the optimal pursuit of this leads to plenty of surprising behaviour (both very ruthless and kind). If companies ignore law, what protections do shareholders have that the executive functions do not screw them over?

Compared with today the Planetary Consortium is a very unregulated place: companies often take on the roles currently handled by states, and in many cases do have law-creating powers. But they are still companies: they are out to make a profit from trade, and that requires customers willing to buy their products (whether the products are iron, entertainment or laws). A company that behaves badly loses customers: it is rare that a company can *force* people to be its customers, especially if important customers happen to be other companies. Nimbus could make copies of important people who egocast and use the information to their advantage, but even the slightest hint that they were doing this would be enough to get all other hypercorps to boycott them and build their own secure egocasting network. Omnicor and Starware fight legally and occasionally arrange deniable "accidents", but they do not start blowing up each other's space stations since then both would lose stock prices.

In environments where the appearance of law is all there is, you get business like in modern Russia or Venezuela: dependent on sucking up to whoever has the power of coercion, rampant corruption and no interest in long-term investment (since it can be removed from you at someone's whim). This is a reason Russia has become so massively dependent on oil: only raw material production is simple and robust enough to function well in such a climate.

Extropian

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Nah. The security forces of a powerful organization can do what they want. I mean, we *never* see corporations breaking laws in real life, right? Now allow them to write the laws in the first place (not much a stretch given world political systems, amirite?). We're talking about internal affairs, not inter-corp relations. Besides, I said, 'it's off topic, so don't worry about it'. :)

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Arenamontanus wrote:
In environments where the appearance of law is all there is, you get business like in modern Russia or Venezuela: dependent on sucking up to whoever has the power of coercion, rampant corruption and no interest in long-term investment (since it can be removed from you at someone's whim). This is a reason Russia has become so massively dependent on oil: only raw material production is simple and robust enough to function well in such a climate.

Hiyas!

I don't know about Russia, but from my own experience in Venezuela, your statement sounds very far from the truth. Off topic, too, don't sweat it (LOL).

SF

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Yerameyahu wrote:
Now allow them to write the laws in the first place (not much a stretch given world political systems, amirite?).

Hiyas!

They've been writing the laws of many countries for a long time now (USA, UK, Bolivia, Peru, etc.)

SF

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Yerameyahu wrote:
Nah. The security forces of a powerful organization can do what they want. I mean, we *never* see corporations breaking laws in real life, right? Now allow them to write the laws in the first place (not much a stretch given world political systems, amirite?). We're talking about internal affairs, not inter-corp relations. Besides, I said, 'it's off topic, so don't worry about it'. :)

Yeah, but to be fair the actual amount of corporate corruption and devastation is actually quite low in comparison to the potential they would have if you took the whole corporate world into account. There are a couple hundred instances of major corporate criminality every year, but you have to take into account the fact that there are thousands of new corporations forming every year, and millions of non-corporated businesses doing so to boot (the vast majority of which will be dead in five years: the average lifespan of a corporation).

Sure corporations break laws, but it would be dishonest if we were to claim that average people don't break laws quite commonly as well (how often do you break the speed limit driving down the freeway?). Their crimes often have greater ramifications, but this has more to do with the vast resources they manage than it does with some supposed moral disparity.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Yes, but that's exactly the point. They *are* the ones with the power to be really 'evil', and the ability to really profit from it… and the means to force other powers into helping, and the ability to hide it, etc. etc. It's quality, not quantity at all. As an analogy, if a giant corporation lowers prices to starve competitors, that's very effective (and a problem); if a tiny mom&pop lowers its prices identically, it's neither effective nor a problem for anyone. This also addresses the 'most aren't evil' argument; most aren't able to be. :)

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Yerameyahu wrote:
Yes, but that's exactly the point. They *are* the ones with the power to be really 'evil', and the ability to really profit from it… and the means to force other powers into helping, and the ability to hide it, etc. etc. It's quality, not quantity at all. As an analogy, if a giant corporation lowers prices to starve competitors, that's very effective (and a problem); if a tiny mom&pop lowers its prices identically, it's neither effective nor a problem for anyone. This also addresses the 'most aren't evil' argument; most aren't able to be. :)

Except now we aren't arguing the evil nature of corporations, but the evil nature of all humans. If your proposal is "humans are naturally bastards, and giving any small group of humans control over a vast amount of resources is probably a bad idea", then I'd likely agree. However, I do not think that the inherent precept of the corporation is necessarily an evil idea.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

We've never not been talking about the evil of humans. Like I said, corps are the ones with the power to do it. :) Specifically, my initial argument was 'the corps can do whatever they want internally'; they can cuz they're corps, and they will cuz they're humans. See?

The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Basic question about forking, continued!

Googleshng wrote:
For that particular interrogation method, why even bother forking? You can just torture the original to death, resleeve, repeat. Still kind of an expensive and inefficient way to go given some of the other options, but hey.

For that matter, why bother killing the morph? It would be fairly simple to strap an ego bridge onto its head and forcibly upload them. Once the process is complete, began copying and virtualizing alpha forks into infomorphs in restricted environments. Dolcett probably had nothing on a skilled simulspace interrogator.