Aptitude Max

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Cmdrpowers Cmdrpowers's picture
Aptitude Max
Downloaded EP from RPGNow just last night and I'm going crazy here. Great game people! Got a quick question for you: I understand that an Aptitude will max at character creation at, say, 30. When you choose the Morph, does that additional +5 mod make the Aptitude Max 35 or is it still maxed at 30? Specifically this is for a Drifter with a Fury morph and the Aptitude in question is REF. Thanking you in advance...

CmdrPowers

nielsk nielsk's picture
The Fury-morph has an
The Fury-morph has an aptitude-max of 30, thus even with REF 30 + Morph-bonus of 5, you have a max of 30. With a reaper-morp it should work though. The rule says that "no aptitude may be increased above 30" but I would interpret it in a way that an unmodified aptitude should not be increased above 30. With morph-boni and personal augmentations it would be quite a harsh restriction.
Cmdrpowers Cmdrpowers's picture
Ah, so if you had a Fury and
Ah, so if you had a Fury and took the trait of Exceptional Aptitude, you could have a REF max of 40. Then the Fury's bonus comes in and you end up with a base of 45 to REF skills. This strikes me as power-gaming, but I want to know the limitations of the system when I present it to my players and they try to go hog wild (I have one fellow in mind in particular...). I do particularly like how Catalyst has attempted to control the excesses of munchkin players with maxs. I'm just trying to make sure what to do here. Does the +5 bonus throw the REF aptitude of 40 out of bounds? Or is it legitimate?

CmdrPowers

nielsk nielsk's picture
Nope, you still end up with
Nope, you still end up with 30 because the Furies maximum aptitude is 30 even though your character has an aptitude of 40 and a bonus of 5, he still needs a morph which can handle such an aptitude-rating (like the reaper-morph that has a maximum aptitude of 40 but hey, that one gives you +10 on REF or even +20 with Reflex boosters - but it stops at 40. Even if you have REF 40 and +20 by bonusses from the Reaper, you still end up with 40). For the ratings you want to apply, you would need a special tailored morph that is not in the rulebook and for that you would need to approve as GM ;) In addition: p. 126 "No aptitude, however, augmented or not, may ever exceed a value of 40"
nielsk nielsk's picture
What I forgot: You have to
What I forgot: You have to differentiate between the aptitude maximum of the ego (which is 30 and can be 40 with Exceptional Aptitude) and the Aptitude Maximum of a morph (which is usually between 20 and 30). Exceptional Aptitude with a value of 40 is only interesting when you are planning on playing an Infomorph because it has an Aptitude Maximum of 40 and no enhancements (or you want to have a Reaper with a lot of willpower or so)
Cmdrpowers Cmdrpowers's picture
Ah, got you. I forgot that
Ah, got you. I forgot that the max of the morph overrules the Ego. So the only point in have that trait is if you have a morph to match. Oh well. That's why they put erasers on pencils. 8-)

CmdrPowers

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max

Here's a relevant question, though. What about the infomorph? It says the aptitude maximum is 40, but a person supposedly can only train as high as 30. How does that work?

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
DaveS DaveS's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Decivre wrote:
Here's a relevant question, though. What about the infomorph? It says the aptitude maximum is 40, but a person supposedly can only train as high as 30. How does that work?
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Exceptional Aptitude trait raises your limit on one Aptitude by 10. It's just a bit unclear as to whether it increases only the Ego limit for that Aptitude or if it also raises the Morph limit (though still subject to the hard cap of 40, per p.124).
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Exceptional Aptitude raises both ego and morph limit, which is why this is confusing to me. With Exceptional Aptitude, a Infomorph's maximum is 50, but the character can only raise to 40. Normally, it's 40 and a character can only raise to 30. I'm assuming it's a flaw and the morph is suppose to only be listed with the cap at 30, but it's been a question that has bothered me for a while now. Update: I just found out that the infomorph isn't the only one with an aptitude maximum of 40... reapers and remade also have this. Seriously, we need an answer on how this affects players.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Skimble Skimble's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
I think this is both an Ego and a Morph trait too, and it has two applications: 1) It allows the ego to get the maximum use out of any Morph that has an Aptiude max of 40. Theoretically it also raises the morph's cap to 50, but this is meaningless because it's impossible (for a player character with the current rules) to to obtain an aptitude of higher than 40. 2) It allows the ego to improve the capabilities of the worst morphs, allowing them to reach Aptitudes of 30 in a Flat and 35 in a Splicer etc.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Skimble wrote:
It allows the ego to get the maximum use out of any Morph that has an Aptiude max of 40. Theoretically it also raises the morph's cap to 50, but this is meaningless because it's impossible (for a player character with the current rules) to to obtain an aptitude of higher than 40.
This is what bothers me about the whole thing. As it stands, there is literally nothing separating a 30 and a 40 aptitude maximum on a morph. I originally wrote it off as a possible flaw of the infomorph that needed errata, but when I noticed that the remade and reaper morph also have this 40 aptitude cap it started to make me wonder if there was actually a reason for this. I'm hoping we get an answer from the devs at some point, but it's really eating at my mind.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Skimble Skimble's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Hmm yes, you're right. Well, the simplest fix to that is to say that it's an Ego trait only. Thus it does not benefit those using flats, splicers etc. but it does allow the ego to get the full benefit of a morph that allows Aptitudes of 40. Thinking about it, that's the way I'm tempted to run it.
Moon-Hawk Moon-Hawk's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
There is an important difference between a 30 and a 40 max in a morph. You take your ego's aptitude (max 30), then add morph bonuses, then you apply the limit of the morph's aptitude maximum, then you add modifications, then you apply the max limit of 40. So the difference between an aptitude maximum of 30 and 40 matters for those aptitudes that the morph gives bonuses to. If I have a COG of 30, and a morph that gives +5, then it definitely matter's what that morph's maximum is. Now there's no reason that I see why an infomorph particularly needs a max of 40 instead of 30, since they don't have aptitude bonuses, but it simply makes sense to give them the highest maximum available. As purely digital entities they have nothing limiting them.
HappyDaze HappyDaze's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
There may eventually be higher grade or specialty processors that give Infomorphs various aptitude bonuses. In such cases, the higher aptitude maximum might come up.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Moon-Hawk wrote:
There is an important difference between a 30 and a 40 max in a morph. You take your ego's aptitude (max 30), then add morph bonuses, then you apply the limit of the morph's aptitude maximum, then you add modifications, then you apply the max limit of 40. So the difference between an aptitude maximum of 30 and 40 matters for those aptitudes that the morph gives bonuses to. If I have a COG of 30, and a morph that gives +5, then it definitely matter's what that morph's maximum is. Now there's no reason that I see why an infomorph particularly needs a max of 40 instead of 30, since they don't have aptitude bonuses, but it simply makes sense to give them the highest maximum available. As purely digital entities they have nothing limiting them.
The heading "Aptitude Maximums" on page 124 state that the maximums only affect your natural score. All bonuses from implants, morphs and anything else can go beyond that maximum, to a total upper limit of 40 (no matter what morph you are in). The 40 point maximum on reapers, remades and infomorphs remains completely worthless.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Attercop Attercop's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
I don't think it does Decivre. The Aptitude Maximum includes the morph Bonus. The second paragraph starts "Some implants, gear, psi, and other factors may modify a character's natural aptitudes. These augmented values may exceed amorph's aptitude maximum, as they represent external factors boosting the morph's ability." Note the "implants, gear, psi and other factors" no mention of morph bonus. The term "natural" just means ego+morph bonus, you're unaugmented score. So you add the morph bonus to the ego's aptitudes, up to maximum of the morphs Aptitude Maximum. Then you add implant, gear, psi and other bonus to that up to 40. There is another question, is Exceptional Aptitude really supposed to be an ego trait only.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Attercop wrote:
I don't think it does Decivre. The Aptitude Maximum includes the morph Bonus. The second paragraph starts "Some implants, gear, psi, and other factors may modify a character's natural aptitudes. These augmented values may exceed amorph's aptitude maximum, as they represent external factors boosting the morph's ability." Note the "implants, gear, psi and other factors" no mention of morph bonus. The term "natural" just means ego+morph bonus, you're unaugmented score. So you add the morph bonus to the ego's aptitudes, up to maximum of the morphs Aptitude Maximum. Then you add implant, gear, psi and other bonus to that up to 40. There is another question, is Exceptional Aptitude really supposed to be an ego trait only.
Good point, but there is another passage in the creation section (page 136) that somewhat validates my stance: [i]Note that any aptitude or skill bonuses provided by the morph are applied after all CP are spent. In other words, these bonuses do not affect the costs of buying aptitude and skill points during character generation. No aptitude may be modified over 40.[/i] It does seem to imply that the morph bonuses can increase your score beyond what your score normally could go due to aptitude maximums. As for Exceptional Aptitude, it is an ego trait for a very good reason. The reason for this is because it increases the aptitude max of [i]every morph you enter[/i]. Would be significantly weaker as a morph trait.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
This is how it's supposed to be: Your natural ego aptitudes are maxed at 30. If you have an exceptional aptitude trait, that particular aptitude is maxed at 40. Your morph's aptitude maximum will range from 20 to 40. Your ego aptitudes plus morph aptitude bonuses may not exceed these maximums. External factors like psi, drugs, implants, gear, etc. may apply aptitude bonuses that allow your modified aptitude to exceed the morph aptitude maximum. (Simplification note: you can ignore this rule and just say no aptitude mods allow an aptitude to exceed the morph aptitude maximum. It may save you some headaches.) No aptitude, no matter what it is modified by, can exceed 40. The Exceptional Aptitude trait had some misleading text, this has been fixed in the errata. It was originally just meant to be an ego trait. Since we were fixing it, however, we also allow it as a morph trait that raises the morph aptitude maximum for a particular aptitude by 10 (but still maxed at 40, so it's only valuable to morphs with aptitude maximums of 20-30). That all clear?

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Kurisu-kun Kurisu-kun's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Hi, I am very sorry to unearth an old post, but I (actually my players; and I must say I don't exactly know how I should answer to them) have still some questions on this topic. What is the purpose to have a Morphs with +5/+10 REF and Reflex Boosters if there is a hard cap limit of 4O? That would make a REF of 45/50 (assuming the base is 30) and those augmentations would be useless. Could'nt we assume that the numbers in excess could be added not to the Aptitude but to the Skill? Thus, for aptitude tests, the max would still be 40, but there would be a utility to those reflex boosters. I honestly don't know how to handle this. I know the hard cap limitation is intended to counter munchkinization (is that the right word?) but I don't know how to explain In Game why some augmentations designed to artificially bump up a stat become useless. Thanks for reading me.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Its mostly because very few people would have that high of a REF. Base human (augmented gene fixed human I believe) is meant to be 15, not 30. I doubt very many people would have an Ego REF of 30. Most of mine start with 15-20.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Not also that cumulative modifiers also have max cap of 60. page 115 One could have the overflow bonuses impact modifers before their respective "capped max ceiling". (bonuses & modifers are calculated together). . This would make high overflow bonuses give a resilience against negative modifiers. Cap is applied after the dust settles in the modifier disputes - To produce the resulting score & roll check Yes this means documenting the total bonus (uncapped) , rather than the total score.
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Kurisu-kun wrote:
I know the hard cap limitation is intended to counter munchkinization (is that the right word?) but I don't know how to explain In Game why some augmentations designed to artificially bump up a stat become useless.
The explanation would be that a person with such an exemplary model of transhuman ability (aptitude at 40) is so advanced in ability that the implant does nothing to further enhance them. If your Reflexes are at 40, you're already jacked so high that reflex boosters aren't giving you any measurable advantage. You are as quick-reacting as someone with lesser reflexes who has been amped up with reflex boosters.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Kurisu-kun Kurisu-kun's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Thank you very much for your answers.
Andinel Andinel's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Okay, so just to make sure, let me know if any of these are wrong. • An ego with REF 25 is sleeved into a Fury. This augments it to a 30, the max for a Fury morph. The morph also has reflex boosters, though, which push that 30 REF up to a 40 because it's an implant modification. • An ego with REF 30 is sleeved into the same morph. Because the morph's aptitude max is 30, they don't benefit from the morph bonus. They still do benefit from the reflex boosters, though.
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
That's all correct.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
RobBoyle wrote:
That's all correct.
And now I have to include an Implant row on my Character Sheets because I am anal as hell and did not know that Implants are capable of pushing Morph stats higher than the aptitude maximum. Do drugs do it too?
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
CodeBreaker wrote:
And now I have to include an Implant row on my Character Sheets because I am anal as hell and did not know that Implants are capable of pushing Morph stats higher than the aptitude maximum. Do drugs do it too?
Yes. Every bonus beyond your ego and morph stats can increase your aptitudes beyond the cap, up to 40 maximum.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
crizh crizh's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Sorry for the thread necro. I'd just like some clarification, preferably from Rob or Adam, about Exceptional Aptitude. I've been reading the errata and it now appears that to play with an Aptitude of 40 you must now buy Exceptional Aptitude twice, once for the Ego and once for the Morph or buy it once for the Ego and buy a Morph with a relevant Aptitude maximum of 40. Is that correct?
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
crizh wrote:
Sorry for the thread necro. I'd just like some clarification, preferably from Rob or Adam, about Exceptional Aptitude. I've been reading the errata and it now appears that to play with an Aptitude of 40 you must now buy Exceptional Aptitude twice, once for the Ego and once for the Morph or buy it once for the Ego and buy a Morph with a relevant Aptitude maximum of 40. Is that correct?
Yes. The trait either affects the morph or the ego, not both without buying it twice. Personally, I hope it is errata'd so that the morph version is cheaper.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
crizh wrote:
I've been reading the errata and it now appears that to play with an Aptitude of 40 you must now buy Exceptional Aptitude twice, once for the Ego and once for the Morph or buy it once for the Ego and buy a Morph with a relevant Aptitude maximum of 40.
Well, it depends on the morph. You either need a morph with a max aptitude of 40 OR a morph with a max apt of 30 and the Exceptional Aptitude trait. It's not meant to be easy to have aptitudes that high :)

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

crizh crizh's picture
Re: Aptitude Max
Thanks for the reply Rob, I appreciate you clarifying that. I've got some spin-off thoughts but I'll start a new thread.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.