Synthethic Morphs and Biomorphs Endocrine Control

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
Synthethic Morphs and Biomorphs Endocrine Control

Again something that is very illogical to me... or just totally not covered in core book, although this is something very obvious.

Bio modification:

"Endocrine Control: This augmentation modifies the morph’s endocrine system, giving the character fine control over their hormone output. This allows the character to completely control their appetite and emotions and to regulate pain. They receive a +30 modifier against the effects of hunger, fear, and any forms of emotional manipulation, such as the Drive Emotion sleight. This augmentation also allows character to lie with perfect conviction and to completely fool all methods of lie detection that do not rely on the target’s neural output; apply a +20 modifier to Deception Tests. It also allows the character to remain awake for 48 hours without penalty, but after this time the character begins experiencing normal fatigue. Finally, the ability to regulate pain reception allows the character to ignore the –10 modifier from 1 wound"

My questions is: how the hell all Synthmorphs don't have same bonuses by default? Of course not vs hunger, but vs "fear, and any forms of emotional manipulation". Synthethics do not have to worry about something such trivial as endocrine system or adreanline or any other brain chemical reactions that impact biomorphs emotions, behaviour or facial expression. Emotional Manipulation of robotic shell? Even with ego, there is no chemistry there, nothing. Even our (human) anger is dicated by chemical reactions in our body. Same with fear, excitment, nervous, sexual desires and many other things- it's all impacted by body chemistry.

Also "This augmentation also allows character to lie with perfect conviction and to completely fool all methods of lie detection that do not rely on the target’s neural output; apply a +20 modifier to Deception Tests".

Will someone please explain to me how you detect if Synthethic morph lies or not by same standards? Synths do not have any face ticks, muscle movement, they (again) do not have any chemical reactions that would appear effects on their facial expression. They don't sweat, lick their mouths, do not swallow, do not have any mouth movement at all, they don't need to blink (they don't even need anything that looks like bio eyes). Hell, that is also becasue most Synths DO NOT HAVE FACE AT ALL by bio standards.... They don't even have mouth... Even with Mask you do not have any chemical reactions in your body at all.

So please tell me why Synthmorphs do not have all those same bonuses? How can you tell that Synth lies? Hell, Synthethic morphs have cybernetic/mechanical vocal cords/speakers so they can even turn off their "human speech" and simple start talking with robotic voice. Good luck now with "reading" their voice and face. Body language? I doubt Synth has any discomfort from standing in one position or locking all his joints. He does not have to worry about any muscles or body discomfort.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
A Cyberbrain is a faithful

A Cyberbrain is a faithful emulator of the whole nervous system including the endocrine system. For stability and security reasons it's hard to get one away from baseline.

Check the description for the Kinesics skill, there's a -30 penalty to read a synth for the reasons you give.

Quote:
Synthethic morphs have cybernetic/mechanical vocal cords/speakers so they can even turn off their "human speech" and simple start talking with robotic voice. Good luck now with "reading" their voice and face. Body language? I doubt Synth has any discomfort from standing in one position or locking all his joints. He does not have to worry about any muscles or body discomfort.

AKA how to look Ultra Guilty of whatever it is you're being questioned on.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:A

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
A Cyberbrain is a faithful emulator of the whole nervous system including the endocrine system. For stability and security reasons it's hard to get one away from baseline.

Check the description for the Kinesics skill, there's a -30 penalty to read a synth for the reasons you give.

Quote:
Synthethic morphs have cybernetic/mechanical vocal cords/speakers so they can even turn off their "human speech" and simple start talking with robotic voice. Good luck now with "reading" their voice and face. Body language? I doubt Synth has any discomfort from standing in one position or locking all his joints. He does not have to worry about any muscles or body discomfort.

AKA how to look Ultra Guilty of whatever it is you're being questioned on.

Ah, thank you, I have been looking through corebook to find something and missed that... Sometimes I wonder why so many crucial information are so much scattered around book.

However that still leaves me with bonuses vs fear or emotional manipulation because emulating any reactions as software/digital algorithms are not the same as chaotic bio chemical reaction. As synthmorph you could easly control or even turn off such systems, because software does not just jumps around chaotically.

Also the bonus for Deception. If a body do not have any "body language" or expressions at all- the only way once could read lie using just body language is their voice. Bonus to deception should also be included to synths.

But really thank you for finding that in corebook.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
The emotional dampers variant

The emotional dampers variant of endocrine control is available to synths. This is more effective than endocrine control for deception, though it does cause a penalty to persuasion while engaged.

Generally speaking, synths are set up with a cyberbrain. That cyberbrain experiences emotions normally, despite not being based on the biological chemicals. The natural inclination to express oneself through the body is also still present. This means that the synth will naturally smile when the ego is happy, etc.

Synths have the unusual ability to disconnect these things when desired, but they are generally connected, which lets them socialize better.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
With emotional dampeners +30

With emotional dampeners +30 to deception (cheap but nonstandard implant for reasons mentioned above) synths gets +30 to Deception and their opponent gets -30 to Kinesics test. IMO it is great recreation of conceivable reality.

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Xoden Xoden's picture
Benny89 wrote:However that

Benny89 wrote:
However that still leaves me with bonuses vs fear or emotional manipulation because emulating any reactions as software/digital algorithms are not the same as chaotic bio chemical reaction. As synthmorph you could easly control or even turn off such systems, because software does not just jumps around chaotically.

Cyberbrains are designed to emulate transhuman biobrains as much as possible, for obvious compatibility reasons. Even most AGIs,with the exception of weird cases like Emergent AGIs and ASIs, are patterned after humans.
So I'd rule that you unable to simply and cleanly disable emotional responses on a vanilla cyberbrain. This subsystem is considered essential, and is hardwired and hardcoded in.
(Maybe you can do some quick and dirty hack, but it shouldn't be trivial and should have some unpleasant side effects, like more stress, erratic behaviour of the subsystem, general glitches and so on.)
The Endocrine Control augmentation for synths represents a specific modification that lets you do this cleanly and without any unintended side effects. Thus the cost.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
You probably can replicate

You probably can replicate some strange changes to brain function using the Narcoalgorithm rules pretty well though, I think that'd be pretty appropriate.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:You

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
You probably can replicate some strange changes to brain function using the Narcoalgorithm rules pretty well though, I think that'd be pretty appropriate.

That what I was thinking. If Neurachem (which is basicelly body chemical testosteron-adrenaline booster based on animals behaviour) can be mimic as Cybernetic, if MRDR, Kick and other can be mimic by narcoalgorithms I don't see how EC couldn't be too.

Kssian Kssian's picture
I pretty agree with the

I pretty agree with the kinesic difficulty related to synths. Maybe not -30 but a base -10 and upgradeable to -30 with dampeners.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
"It's a small off-duty Czeckslovakian traffic warden..."

Just to make sure everyone's on the same page; Endocrine Control is available for Synths and Infomorphs as a software upgrade.
This also gives us a simple in-universe explanation as to why it isn't available as standard - "Upgrades are infomorph enhancements that are sufficiently integrated into the user’s simulated mindstate that they must be personalized for that ego".

As for Synthmorphs not having a Deception bonus as standard; lacking physiological cues doesn't make you better at telling lies, it makes it harder for others to tell that you're lying.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Thank you for that

Thank you for that clarification. I didn't find it in my initial search, where I neglected to check the software section.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:Just

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Just to make sure everyone's on the same page; Endocrine Control is available for Synths and Infomorphs as a software upgrade.

Can you please point me where and in which book? I just too a look inside Software in corebook and didn't find anything :(.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Hrm, well Transhuman, page

Hrm, well Transhuman, page 141 lists it as an upgrade for infomorphs. I'm not seeing a synth version right now.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ubik2 wrote:Hrm, well

ubik2 wrote:
Hrm, well Transhuman, page 141 lists it as an upgrade for infomorphs. I'm not seeing a synth version right now.

Yeah, just made a search through whole Transhuman and there is nothing about synths having EC, only informorphs...

Which is pretty stupid. If Informorph can have endoctrine control- that means it's a software. How synth can't load the same software? Or biomorph even through mesh inserts....

The lack of consistency in EP books is killing me sometimes...

ubik2 ubik2's picture
An Infomorph has a software

An Infomorph has a software body and mind. The standard Synthmorph has a hardware body and a software mind (running on a cyberbrain). The standard Biomorph has a biological body and a biological mind. Based on this, it's clear why there's a biomod for the biomorph, and a software upgrade for the infomorph, and neither of them are applicable to the synthmorph.

In reality, this mind/body duality isn't so clear cut. I think it's reasonable to consider the Endocrine Control system a body system, and it's understandable why the developers didn't think to apply it to the synthmorphs (who would not have the normal endocrine system). However, it was likely an oversight to not allow synthmorphs the option to get this same control.

I think this is a common side effect of gear porn game design, and EP1, like Shadowrun, has a lot of gear porn. If you have 10 important mods, it's easy to make sure that the game balance and logical consistency of them works. When you have 100, it's a lot less reasonable to keep things from falling through the cracks. This is even harder when you have a number of different authors contributing.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Quotes Ahoy!

Transhuman p.139 Cyberbrains and Infomorph Software:

"Many of the plug-ins and upgrades available to infomorphs can also be integrated into the cyberbrains found in pod morphs and synthmorphs (though some are really only useful to digital beings). The same rules for acquisition and installation apply.
Certain software may note special rules when used with cyberbrains. Eidolons may not be run on cyberbrains.
No infomorph software can run on the biological brain of a biomorph. The cognitive architecture of a biological brain is simply not set up to run programs."

Transhuman p.141 - Additional Upgrades:
"The following physical augmentations are also available as infomorph upgrades, with the same effect and costs: Eidetic Memory, Endocrine Control, Hyper Linguist, Math Boost, Memory Lock (p. 149, Panopticon), Mental Speed, Oracles, Parallel Processor (p. 189, Rimward), Skillware."

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Transhuman p.139 Cyberbrains and Infomorph Software:

"Many of the plug-ins and upgrades available to infomorphs can also be integrated into the cyberbrains found in pod morphs and synthmorphs (though some are really only useful to digital beings). The same rules for acquisition and installation apply.
Certain software may note special rules when used with cyberbrains. Eidolons may not be run on cyberbrains.
No infomorph software can run on the biological brain of a biomorph. The cognitive architecture of a biological brain is simply not set up to run programs."

Transhuman p.141 - Additional Upgrades:
"The following physical augmentations are also available as infomorph upgrades, with the same effect and costs: Eidetic Memory, Endocrine Control, Hyper Linguist, Math Boost, Memory Lock (p. 149, Panopticon), Mental Speed, Oracles, Parallel Processor (p. 189, Rimward), Skillware."

Good Find! I already found out about plug-ins regarding Narcoalgorithms http://eclipsephase.com/comment/63419#comment-63419 (that they are permanent software plug ins for synths and infomorphs and you can access them immidietly) but I didn't catch that it means it's same case for Endoctrine Control! :) My brain didn't processed it out of excitment about finally understanding narcoalgorithms :P

Nice, that closes this thread. With perma narcoalgorithms and endonctrine control Synths are now much stronger than I thought compare to biomorphs.

And all of that egocast with them... Dam :D. Permanent combat and other "implants" basicelly. Synthmorphs can have permanent Skillware, Mental Speed, Endoctrine Control, Drugs, Memory Lock, Mental Speed, Oracles, Parallel Processor - all as egocasting software plug-ins. OMG.

Xestaro Xestaro's picture
Benny89 wrote:

Benny89 wrote:

And all of that egocast with them... Dam :D. Permanent combat and other "implants" basicelly. Synthmorphs can have permanent Skillware, Mental Speed, Endoctrine Control, Drugs, Memory Lock, Mental Speed, Oracles, Parallel Processor - all as egocasting software plug-ins. OMG.

hmm are you sure? I mean it says:
"Many of the plug-ins and upgrades available to infomorphs can also be integrated into the cyberbrains found in pod morphs and synthmorphs (though some are really only useful to digital beings)."
Doesn't that mean that the Cyberbrain is modified? not the Persona hosted in it? You'd have to abandon that Cyberbrain when egocasting. Or am I overlooking something?

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
It irks me somewhat that

It irks me somewhat that there is no Sage Advice for Transhuman Future. With Devs clarifying issues.

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CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
It irks me somewhat that

Accidental double post.

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
Xestaro wrote:Benny89 wrote:

Xestaro wrote:
Benny89 wrote:

And all of that egocast with them... Dam :D. Permanent combat and other "implants" basicelly. Synthmorphs can have permanent Skillware, Mental Speed, Endoctrine Control, Drugs, Memory Lock, Mental Speed, Oracles, Parallel Processor - all as egocasting software plug-ins. OMG.

hmm are you sure? I mean it says:
"Many of the plug-ins and upgrades available to infomorphs can also be integrated into the cyberbrains found in pod morphs and synthmorphs (though some are really only useful to digital beings)."
Doesn't that mean that the Cyberbrain is modified? not the Persona hosted in it? You'd have to abandon that Cyberbrain when egocasting. Or am I overlooking something?

Ok let me explain: plug-ins are software. Software. By RAW and corebook- software is in your mesh inserts, not in your brain/cyberbrain. Everything that is in your mesh inserts- blueprints/software etc. ego cast with you. You can install that software or share/copy how you want- it still stays in your ego/mesh inserts. Treat it like .exe file.

Also Transhuman says:

Transhuman, page 149:

"The same drug-emulating narcoalgorithms (p. 323, EP) used by egos sleeved in synthmorphs also work on infomorphs. Treat them as plug-ins (p. 148) for rules purposes. Inflicting a narcoalgorithm on an involuntary infomorph requires a successful brainhack (p.148)"

Then page 139: SOFTWARE PLUG-INS

"Plug-ins are simply programs attached to the mind- state emulation software, so that the ego may access them immediately. A plug-in requires a Complex Action to install; once installed, it is “carried” by the infomorph, so that if the infomorph moves to another device, the plug-in moves with it. Plug-ins may be deleted with a Quick Action. Almost any software (pp. 331–332, EP) can be installed as a plug-in, including standard programs, scorchers, and skillsofts (the latter require virtual skillware to run)."

They are:
1. Software
2. "attached to the mind- state emulation software, so that the ego may access them immediately"
3. "once installed, it is “carried” by the infomorph, so that if the infomorph moves to another device, the plug-in moves with it"
4. "Almost any software (pp. 331–332, EP) can be installed as a plug-in"
5. Nacroalgorithms "Treat them as plug-ins"

Then:

Transhuman p.139 Cyberbrains and Infomorph Software:

"Many of the plug-ins and upgrades available to infomorphs can also be integrated into the cyberbrains found in pod morphs and synthmorphs (though some are really only useful to digital beings). The same rules for acquisition and installation apply."

"The same rules" as for infomorphs: "once installed, it is “carried” by the infomorph, so that if the infomorph moves to another device, the plug-in moves with it".

If you read corebook- software are in your mesh inserts, not directly applied to your cyberbrain.

Now we can understand that in two ways (both do not make ANY DIFFERENCE):

1. Plug-Ins are installed on your cyberbrain so you can immdietly access them. But all software (so everything I menioned before- nacros, endoctrine control software, oracles software etc etc.) always ego cast with you. That is by Corebook. By installing software as plug-in- you do not lose it. Do you loose Setup.exe file when you install new game on PC?

THEN when you resleeve- you install everything as plug-ins on new cyberbrain again so you can access them immidietly. You again run Setup.exe of your mesh-carried softwares.

2. You install them as plug-ins in your mesh inserts and then they can run always like that without having to install them as plug-ins again when you move to new device (which is said to work that way for infomorphs). As Transhuman says "Same rules applies" for synthmorphs. Going by this- plug-ins are installed in mesh inserts and simply move like everything else with ego "already" installed. Both Synths and Informorphs are Digital. This how I see it because, again quoting Transhuman plug-ins are "attached to the mind- state emulation software". Your ego is that emulation software in cyberbrains and infomorphs.

In both cases- that doesn't change anything. Everything travels with you, even if you need install them again as plug-ins each time you resleeve to new cyberbrain- all softwares, skillsofts, blueprints etc. are in your mesh inserts. You don't delete them by installing them :D.

It's cosmetic difference in interpretation. Both interpreations really works the same mechanicaly in the end. Just PC has to roleplay when they resleve "Installing my software as plug-ins....done" or not.

Xestaro Xestaro's picture
ah yes ok, you'd need to

ah yes ok, you'd need to reinstall them, not have them automatically active as soon as you resleeve. Agreed.