Share all your known munchies/crunches/broken things in EP!

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
Share all your known munchies/crunches/broken things in EP!

Hi Guys,

We all know players will always find creative ways to find/use most broken mechanics/combos possible in game. It is a thing in every RPG and a joy in itself to find it, use it and then try to house rule it (or not :P). So share all munchies you know in EP!

I start with my fav so far: Liquid Thermite usage. Splash Micromissles with Liquid Thermite (to avoid -1d10 penalty) inside plus zap rounds = a lot of targets on fire for 3 Action Turns, and also destroying their armor at the same time. Funny combo= Seeker Pistol with LT splash missles plus zap railgun SMG/Pistol in the off hand.

Wasp Knife + Liquid Thermite + Elware/Shocking Gloves. Guy burns for full damage from inside- ouch!. Works also with Scrapper Gel.

Another one: synth combat body + ghost rider module + pupper socket + player in Eidolon + empty cyberbrain = enjoy having mental bonuses/Speed on infomorph + synthmorph combat body. Fun fac: if GM treats synth body as drone = Gunnery covers ALL weapons :). If not- you have basicelly two morphs.

Come guys, share even most riddiculous ones! :)

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Not quite munchkin material,

Not quite munchkin material, but broken none the less. Skillware is a poorly worded augment. Skillsofts aren't much better. They explain what they are supposed to do, but don't tell you how to do it.

My house rule is that skillware may have 3 skillsofts loaded at a time. No cap to skill ranks, but those that are beyond 40 are rare. May also contain bugs and malware hence why you might want to stick to safer skillsofts. When a skillsoft says skill level of 40, that means 40 period. Things like aptitudes can't raise the skill as the 'skills' skillsofts provide are very locked in their ways. Skillsofts may be swapped as a quick action.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Ok. This was done on one of

Ok. This was done on one of our last break ins. Due to alpha forks being identical copies our GM ruled that they also share Moxie Score. So our elite hacker with effective Infosec of 120 or something had been carried in Ghostrider to the physical access point. Also carried was a fiberoptic camouflaged cable connected to a mobile Server. Ghostriding hacker puppetsocks the infiltrator to physically override some security measures in the system, overcklock the CPUs. Then we just plug in the 500m of cable into the system and 10 copies of full Moxie forks of the hacker flood the system. A lot of sparks, a lot of erased data. Suicidal viral infomorphs. For the Sysadmin it was the Fall again.

Skillwares are poorly written but one thing is clear: They cannot grant you skill rating higher than 40.
Our houserule is that it can grant 100 points total, starting from Aptitude, to 40 max in one skill.

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Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
My most broken tactic is also

My most broken tactic is also the simplest: Simply pump up speed by whatever means possible, get several instances of ambidexterity, and roll out with an extra pair of limbs. Setting people on fire is all well and good, but when in doubt more guns and more speed is just a flat out damage multiplier.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Urthdigger wrote:My most

Urthdigger wrote:
My most broken tactic is also the simplest: Simply pump up speed by whatever means possible, get several instances of ambidexterity, and roll out with an extra pair of limbs. Setting people on fire is all well and good, but when in doubt more guns and more speed is just a flat out damage multiplier.

So what you are saying is dual wielding Assault Rifles and quad-wielding plasma sword +3x knifes? :)

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Ok, I forgot about the most

Ok, I forgot about the most munchkin thing that kept my character - semi-competent in combat alive while doing stupid shit and watching "combat monsters" around die like flies.

ARMOR STACKING FOR NEWBS

Biomorph - 100% legal. No multiple layers penalty.

1.Get Heavy Bioweave 3/4 3/4
2.Get Smart Skin 3/2 6/6
3.Get Second Skin 1/3 7/9
4.Get best armor you can.
Heavy Body Armor. 13/13 20/22
5.Get Full Helmet. 3/3. 23/25
6.Get Fireproofing Armor mod 2/0 25/25
7.Get Ablative Patches or Reactive Coating
Get Reactive Coating 5/5. 30/30

Total cost: about 4k credits
You can mix and match but this is highest RAW armor combination AFAIK.

Synthmorphs - depends on your DM interpretation.

Ask how heavy can masked synthmorph armor be. Naked Guard morph has 12/12 so it seems logical it is this at minimum. 14/12 is a Light Combat Armor robotic enhancement which from the description in the book could reasonably be masked.

Take Guard morph or Light Combat Armor morph and mask that shit.
Now repeat steps 2-7 from biomorph guideline.

You should end up 41/38 or 43/38 Armor.

Now wait patiently till your GM hits you with heavy Railgun rolls 2x10 and smiles. Smile back and announce "I take 0 damage"

Disclaimer: This relies on treating the masked synth body as biomorph body (layer 0) for the purpose of counting armor layers. Otherwise you have 2 layers of armor: synth armor mod and external body armor, which would impose -20 penalty for layering armor.

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:Ok, I

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Ok, I forgot about the most munchkin thing that kept my character - semi-competent in combat alive while doing stupid shit and watching "combat monsters" around die like flies.

ARMOR STACKING FOR NEWBS

Biomorph - 100% legal. No multiple layers penalty.

1.Get Heavy Bioweave 3/4 3/4
2.Get Smart Skin 3/2 6/6
3.Get Second Skin 1/3 7/9
4.Get best armor you can.
Heavy Body Armor. 13/13 20/22
5.Get Full Helmet. 3/3. 23/25
6.Get Fireproofing Armor mod 2/0 25/25
7.Get Ablative Patches or Reactive Coating
Get Reactive Coating 5/5. 30/30

Total cost: about 4k credits
You can mix and match but this is highest RAW armor combination AFAIK.

Synthmorphs - depends on your DM interpretation.

Ask how heavy can masked synthmorph armor be. Naked Guard morph has 12/12 so it seems logical it is this at minimum. 14/12 is a Light Combat Armor robotic enhancement which from the description in the book could reasonably be masked.

Take Guard morph or Light Combat Armor morph and mask that shit.
Now repeat steps 2-7 from biomorph guideline.

You should end up 41/38 or 43/38 Armor.

Now wait patiently till your GM hits you with heavy Railgun rolls 2x10 and smiles. Smile back and announce "I take 0 damage"

Disclaimer: This relies on treating the masked synth body as biomorph body (layer 0) for the purpose of counting armor layers. Otherwise you have 2 layers of armor: synth armor mod and external body armor, which would impose -20 penalty for layering armor.

According to rules the Synth armor mod does not count as layer so you don't get -10 penalty for it.

So Guard with 12/12 and Heavy Combat Armor is 28/28 immidietly. Now to add all other stuff like armor mods, second skin/smart skin/Helmet etc.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Yeah. But I'm not sure if the

Yeah. But I'm not sure if the robotic armor can be applied ON the mask. (RAI). I would hazard a guess that Guard hasb one already under the mask, but due to insufficient playtesting and/or ineptitude in game design authors decided it is not needed in the statblock. See my comment on messiness of EP in thread on Cyberlimbs

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
Why on mask? You upgrade your

Why on mask? You upgrade your chasis armor (so basicelly your synmorph skin, chasis). And apply on that Synth Mask. It is the same as when you add mounted concealed weapon. You probably go to some sort of "cyber engineer store" or something, where they remove your Synth Mask, apply armor, mount your weapons and then reapply Synth Mask.

Same as things like Wings, Vector Thrusters etc. can work with Synth Mask (no where is said they don't).

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
I stress test systems

I'll be vague, because half the fun is finding the crunch on your own.

1: there is a way to double your LUC, and you can pair it with another ability so that you can heal LUC while operating at no penalty.
2: You can make a character with 4 rep networks, one of which operates at over 100 - as long as you make rep requests at less than 80, each network can operate at 70-90% before morph bonuses.
3: Antitank punches.
4: You can make a character who has between a 75-98% chance of surviving all Exsurgent attacks, and is functionally immune to psi.
5: You can make a character who, eschewing standard morphs, is instead a bomber wing for less than the price of a single tricked out morph.
6: You can make a character who can crack a cyberbrain in ~2 turns depending on rolls.

These are, of course, my favorite.

Sudo drop your weapon.

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Benny89 wrote:Urthdigger

Benny89 wrote:
Urthdigger wrote:
My most broken tactic is also the simplest: Simply pump up speed by whatever means possible, get several instances of ambidexterity, and roll out with an extra pair of limbs. Setting people on fire is all well and good, but when in doubt more guns and more speed is just a flat out damage multiplier.

So what you are saying is dual wielding Assault Rifles and quad-wielding plasma sword +3x knifes? :)

Assault rifles? Pah! Heavy rail pistols all the way. Deals only 2 less damage (4 when accounting for armor), but you can wield twice as many and they're more concealable. Even light pistols pack a punch if you want them to be as concealable as possible. I've walked into places completely naked, whipped them out of skin pockets and wasted fancier morphs before they got a chance.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
FrivolousVector wrote:I'll be

FrivolousVector wrote:
I'll be vague, because half the fun is finding the crunch on your own.

1: there is a way to double your LUC, and you can pair it with another ability so that you can heal LUC while operating at no penalty.
2: You can make a character with 4 rep networks, one of which operates at over 100 - as long as you make rep requests at less than 80, each network can operate at 70-90% before morph bonuses.
3: Antitank punches.
4: You can make a character who has between a 75-98% chance of surviving all Exsurgent attacks, and is functionally immune to psi.
5: You can make a character who, eschewing standard morphs, is instead a bomber wing for less than the price of a single tricked out morph.
6: You can make a character who can crack a cyberbrain in ~2 turns depending on rolls.

These are, of course, my favorite.

Ow, FV, come on man :D Please elaborate on those! I know it's fun to find those but that is why I started that thread, so people can share their crunches :D.

Come on, detail those, share your OP knowledge (especially first two!).

1. I guess Psychosurgery is to heal LUC, but how to double LUC.
2. I guess that some kind of background/fraction bonuses + CP spend?
3. Synthmorph cyberclaws + 3 extra limbs + knife in every other limb + Pneumatic? 5d10 dmg + SOM, Synth bonus and Cyberclaws bonus?

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Morphs that have aptitude

Morphs that have aptitude caps of 40 and aptitude bonuses totaling over 30 are rare. Flexbots have a back door to this problem. They can take the best in terms of aptitudes from every module it is composed of. A cap of 40 from one module, +10 to COG from another, +5 REF from another, etc. In theory, a flexbot could get apt cap of 40 and +15 aptitude bonus to every aptitude, assuming one can find the required modules. Remember, flexbot's iconic augments are modular design and shape adjusting, so you could add them to morphs to add them to the flexbot, though you might get away with only modular design. Some might even try to design their own morphs to capitalize on this advantage.

A warning, doing things this way is expensive.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
A solution to multi-weapon

A solution to multi-weapon fighting. Put many ghostrider modules and articulated weapon mounts on the same morph. Each ego in the ghostrider modules can be tasked in controlling 1 articulated weapon mount. This avoids the penalty to shooting with multiple weapons and allows for shooting at multiple targets. They also get to shoot at informorph speed. The egos can be forks of yourself or your friends.

Where I get this idea? Flexbots. It mentions that extra egos can use articulated weapon mount. See pages 206-208 in Transhuman.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Ok, so here is definitive RAW

Ok, so here is definitive RAW ruling about robotic armor enhancements.

These armor modifications add to the synthmorph’s built-in Armor rating. They are not compatible with worn armor. EP p.310

So Reaper in Heavy Body Armor is not allowed by RAW because it already has a robotic armor enhancement. Even Guard would not be allowed to wear armor if you used this enhancement.
This is the rule that are there to prevents what Benny89 wanted to do: combine Heavy Body Armor and Heavy Robotic Armor. It is purely for game balance.

Also Heavy Combat Armor:

This modification is bulky and noticeable; the bot frame is encased in a heavy-duty carapace. (...) The shell’s mobility systems and power output are also enhanced to deal with the extra load. EP p.310

So it could be masked but it would look like a bad drawing of a gorrilla came to life.

As for the Guard. I guess that to accomodate the mask and internal armor a lot of clever engineereng had to be done so it is more of an exception than something to base the entire reasoning on. I retract the previous comment about designer oversight with this morph. It is clearly logical now that I think about it. If it had robotic armor enhancement it couldn't by RAW wear any external armor.

So with Guard the highest you can go is 12/12 + 16/16 + mods with Robotic Heavy Armor.
Forget about looking human. Or go for the layered armor as described and get 41/38 which is cut to 40/38 by DUR at 40.

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CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Please Frivolous Vector

Please Frivolous Vector elaborate on how to get double LUC.
I can only think of Multiple Personalities in one brain or something with resleeving internally stored egos into cyberbrain. As for the LUC recharge it would be psionic talent Downtime (or something similiar). Maybe a muse is in constant psychoteraphy with one of MultiplePersonalities?

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:Ok, so

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Ok, so here is definitive RAW ruling about robotic armor enhancements.

These armor modifications add to the synthmorph’s built-in Armor rating. They are not compatible with worn armor. EP p.310

So Reaper in Heavy Body Armor is not allowed by RAW because it already has a robotic armor enhancement. Even Guard would not be allowed to wear armor if you used this enhancement.
This is the rule that are there to prevents what Benny89 wanted to do: combine Heavy Body Armor and Heavy Robotic Armor. It is purely for game balance.

Also Heavy Combat Armor:

This modification is bulky and noticeable; the bot frame is encased in a heavy-duty carapace. (...) The shell’s mobility systems and power output are also enhanced to deal with the extra load. EP p.310

So it could be masked but it would look like a bad drawing of a gorrilla came to life.

As for the Guard. I guess that to accomodate the mask and internal armor a lot of clever engineereng had to be done so it is more of an exception than something to base the entire reasoning on. I retract the previous comment about designer oversight with this morph. It is clearly logical now that I think about it. If it had robotic armor enhancement it couldn't by RAW wear any external armor.

So with Guard the highest you can go is 12/12 + 16/16 + mods with Robotic Heavy Armor.
Forget about looking human. Or go for the layered armor as described and get 41/38 which is cut to 40/38 by DUR at 40.

Of course that It is for pure balance. But it is also stupid. A humanoid synth morph meets what? An invisible barrier that prevents him from wearing a body armor (same for carapace armor)? Like space magic does not allow it? Player buys it and I say as GM- you can't wear it? I understand a game balance reasons to mechanic (especially in cRPG games) but when it comes to pen and paper RPGs such things just look stupid when I have to explain player why the neo-gorilla uplift player (MUCH bigger morph) can get inside Body armor and his normal looking Humanoid Steel morph can't. There has to be some "logic" in RPG, because otherwise immersion is easly broken by simple... well, strange rules. Like "you can wear this armor but magically it loose all its protecion propertines, because magic". But I get that RAW says that and that will be homerule.

As for Heavy Combat Armor- the "bad drawing of a gorrilla came to life" is just your interpretation. For me a standard chasis or Light Combat armor looks like normal muscled but slim humanoid. But with Heavy Combat ARmor you look like Schwarzenegger Terminatior- bulky, super muslced humanoid bodybuilder. Again- there is no detailed description of Heavy Combat armor apart from "bulky and visible". Well, professional bodybuilder is definitely bulky and visible :). That is just an interpretation.

Sure even without Body armor you can easly get Guard to upper 40 levels of Armor values. But I am not that concerned about players stacking armor (there is always a way when I want to deal with it) but also a logic behind their action. For example, if player decided to smash nearby gas pump and then ignite it- that is something mechanic does not say how to handle (like damage, explosion radius, throws, etc.) but it is logical action by player. I can't say : you can't do that, because pen and paper is that - you can do what you want and suffer consequences. Hence why invisible barrier preventing humanoid sized/shaped synthmorph to wear body armor is simple...well.. stupid.

Much better would be rule that says that you can't get armor value higher than for example 40. It is way more logical because at some point personal armor can only offer as much protection, after which you would have to start wearing vehicle armor plates or tank chasis. This way a synthmorph would have to decide how to get to that value, either by wearable armor/chasis upgrade or one + mods, or upgrade + wearable armor etc. Since at somepoint you won't magically make better armor by adding layers. If you war 5 bulletproofs vests- it will offer better protection vs what can already protect against, but 50 cal will still go through all and you like butter.

I just don't agree with space magic reasons why something can't be pick up/wear/wield if logic 100% says it could be. Not in pen and paper RPG.

Dam, I wrote too long post :D. Sorry, this is my personal of course taking on it. RAW is RAW. It will be houserule of course. Sorry for too long post :).

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
And the prize goes to:

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Please Frivolous Vector elaborate on how to get double LUC.
I can only think of Multiple Personalities in one brain or something with resleeving internally stored egos into cyberbrain. As for the LUC recharge it would be psionic talent Downtime (or something similiar). Maybe a muse is in constant psychoteraphy with one of MultiplePersonalities?

Got it in one. It works best in pods because of the half-cyberbrain, you can fork on a lark while still having access to psi.
So the full text: buy a pod morph with Multiple personalities, take Psi-I and Downtime. Run 2 alpha forks simultaneously. Since the auxiliary ego isn't running the show, it's not subject to SAN damage per rules as written. When their muse notices severe psychological trauma, it runs a quick playback of "the story thus far" and swaps to the aux ego, while the primary takes a well deserved nap. If the trauma is serious enough (such as confirmed exsurgent infection), the primary ego is wiped, the aux takes the wheel, and spins off an alpha to keep the other boots warm.

Benny: This is half of why my titan hunter used a pleasure pod as a combat morph. The other reasons are secret.
(*cough*)
...
Mechanically advantageous secrets.

Sudo drop your weapon.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
>Be a infomorph, ideally a

>Be a infomorph, ideally a cheapish eidolon
>Stack Speed
>Get Panopticon and other action multipliers (mental speed or Multitasking *if* you can get it)
>12 complex actions per action turn
>Operate 6-12 combat drones simultaneously giving yourself the firepower of a fireteam and their attendant recon section.

Not quite as much dakka as a single high speed multi-wielder character but you can be everywhere at once, and use tricks like cheap drones with strap-on disposable missiles for a sub 2000 credit drone strike. Most useful in campaigns with a lot of open space like Gatecrashing or Reclaimer games. Bodies are also very expendable, which is nice.

Guardian Angel bots are awesome for being a 1000 cred solid combat morph which is also basically a flying trash can. Narrows down combat skills to relevant pilot skills and Gunnery, allowing you to cheaply use a mission-specific weapon mix without needing 100-200 CP of weapon skills.

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
Guardian Angel bots are awesome for being a 1000 cred solid combat morph which is also basically a flying trash can.

Oh gods, its flying Urbstomps.
Note: I usually add a Ghostrider to the "command drone", that way you know where your ego(s) is housed. Otherwise go for a tricked out (read: stealthy and armored) mobile server and a Servitor for multi-instancing your ridonkulous self.

Always glad to see you, Wiki. You've always got something clever to contribute.

Sudo drop your weapon.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Since these probably won't work in V2...

Give your Synthmorph Modular Construction, attach 4 Apiaries, and give all of them the Mass Transfer. Incoming damage is reduced to (1/5DV+5) after armor, and can be repaired by adding new Swarmbots.
Also, for maximum sillyness - Daityas in Battlesuits. Not really powerful as such, but awesome and WAY more intimidating than they have any right to be.
Other fun options are Neo-Avians with Carapace Armour and Whiplashes with Skinflex.

Benny89 wrote:
Of course that It is for pure balance. But it is also stupid. A humanoid synth morph meets what? An invisible barrier that prevents him from wearing a body armor (same for carapace armor)? Like space magic does not allow it?

I'm pretty sure the idea is that the armour mods actually involve attaching armour to the outside frame - essentially having a 'suit' which is permanently attached.
This is the core difference between the augmentations and a Synth's intrinsic armor rating: this would also be the difference between a modified guard and a custom morph variant.
It's also worth keeping in mind that non-standard augmentations are by definition after-market alterations, and would probably be a lot more obvious / visually incongrous than those that come as a default - a Guard with the Combat Armor augmenation might not look like a gorilla, but they would look like they were wearing body armour already.

Simplified in-game justification; even if it isn't completely obvious, these augments change your proportions sufficiently that worn armour doesn't fit properly. Note that Neo-Gorillas should also be incabale of using 'normal' armor configurations.

Urthdigger wrote:
Assault rifles? Pah! Heavy rail pistols all the way. Deals only 2 less damage (4 when accounting for armor), but you can wield twice as many and they're more concealable.
But two-handed weapons don't increase the multiwapon penalties, they only increase the amount of limbs required.
And articulated weapon mounts don't need limbs at all.
My personal preference for Ridiculous Killbots is 4 Kinetic Machineguns firing Accushot Hollowpoint rounds 2km away from the target.
For melee oriented Killbots use Shredders; the first rule of CQC MinMaxing is that ranged weapons are ALWAYS better than melee weapons.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

I'm pretty sure the idea is that the armour mods actually involve attaching armour to the outside frame - essentially having a 'suit' which is permanently attached.
This is the core difference between the augmentations and a Synth's intrinsic armor rating: this would also be the difference between a modified guard and a custom morph variant.
It's also worth keeping in mind that non-standard augmentations are by definition after-market alterations, and would probably be a lot more obvious / visually incongrous than those that come as a default - a Guard with the Combat Armor augmenation might not look like a gorilla, but they would look like they were wearing body armour already.

For melee oriented Killbots use Shredders; the first rule of CQC MinMaxing is that ranged weapons are ALWAYS better than melee weapons.

That is just your interpretation (which is my main grip- there is not enough information about Heavy Combat armor in corebook). Also you can still have Synthetic Mask over it. Core book says only "bulky and visible", which can mean anything from just heavy muslec bodybuilder guy (take even Coleman, he can still wear cloths, no?) or gorilla. It's all interpretation, but for me more logical is just very muscled/bulky guy vs lean/slim guy since synths are not really bulky if you look at picutres. You don't need big muscle if you have servomotors/pneumatic mechanism . Also we are talking about EP universe, where we have nanotechnology and other silly things. You really think there would be ANY difficulty to get Body Armor suited for Gorilla morph or heavy armored synthmorph? Really? We have smart skin, smark cloths, nanophages, plasma swords, spray skin and other silly things and they can't get body armor size/shaped suited for something like that? Come on man. There is also no rule saying you can't have body armor over shape adjusting morph- which if we go 100% by RAW must means that Body Armor must be made from smart materials, no? Of course not, but here is another hole is EP rules. So many things need to be homeruled from start....

But lets say we play with your interpretation of Heavy Combat Armor. What about Light combat armor which is only few points lower than Hevy? Corebook says nothing about it being even visible or bulky or anything. My interpretation is synth armors are just upgrades to their chasis, their morph. Since you can also wear Synth Mask over it- it just makes them less or more bulky, no? So Light Combat Armor has even less logical reasons to not fit in your standard body armor. We are talking about world when you have VARIOUS of morphs, from octos (who can wear body armor... octophus!), gorillas, snake morph, rats/dogs, 2m high bodies, 1,5m high bodies, dwarf-like, slim, bulky, heavy muscled etc. There is no way Body Armor can't be fitted to anything but most riddiculous morphs (Sun whale, Fenrir etc.). This is not a matter of XXXXXXL shirt in shop, we are talking about nanotechnology universe with immortal people with digital brains.

As for melee- I agree that for me best melee is concealed 2x/4x Shard pistols in synthethic morph limbs (or shoulders) and just make a soup of any guy who come close enough to force you to use your limb-mounted diamon shard pistols. Even with -20 penalty well builded character (70 base, specialisation shard pistol + smartlink = 90) will have 70 skill to use in CQC with at least 2x Shard pistols on full auto. Well....dam.

But plasma sword is still sweet, no? ;)

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

Urthdigger wrote:
Assault rifles? Pah! Heavy rail pistols all the way. Deals only 2 less damage (4 when accounting for armor), but you can wield twice as many and they're more concealable.
But two-handed weapons don't increase the multiwapon penalties, they only increase the amount of limbs required.
And articulated weapon mounts don't need limbs at all.
My personal preference for Ridiculous Killbots is 4 Kinetic Machineguns firing Accushot Hollowpoint rounds 2km away from the target.
For melee oriented Killbots use Shredders; the first rule of CQC MinMaxing is that ranged weapons are ALWAYS better than melee weapons.

I'm going at this with a bit more than simply how much damage one can put out in a combat round. True, slapping as many articulated weapon mounts as you can on a synth means heavier weapons without any real penalty, but it's quite noticeable and hard to move around in unless you're using concealed weapon mounts in which case you can only use smaller weapons like pistols anyway.

Four limbs doesn't look out of place even if it's two prosthetics on a splicer, and even a few more biological morphs like the scurrier and octomorph come with enough built in (And ok, an octomorph, takko, or neo-squid could probably get away with doing this with assault rifles. Or plasma rifles). Draws a little attention, but not overly much. Plus if we're going with limbs over weapon mounts, taking ambidexterity means spending a bit of CP to almost double the damage over taking larger weapons.

Maybe I'm weird, but I prefer using diplomacy and stealth to get into a position where I can do more effective damage over a frontal assault. I like the thought of looking completely harmless and then catching them off guard with an unexpected assault.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
FrivolousVector wrote:I'll be

FrivolousVector wrote:
I'll be vague, because half the fun is finding the crunch on your own.

2: You can make a character with 4 rep networks, one of which operates at over 100 - as long as you make rep requests at less than 80, each network can operate at 70-90% before morph bonuses.
3: Antitank punches.
4: You can make a character who has between a 75-98% chance of surviving all Exsurgent attacks, and is functionally immune to psi.
6: You can make a character who can crack a cyberbrain in ~2 turns depending on rolls.

These are, of course, my favorite.

Can you please elaborate on those above more please?

Especially Reputation networks (2) and 2 turns hacking (6).

As for (4) I guess this is your TITAN hunter build with pod-morph (bonus egainst psi), dominant strain trait and sleights that give you defense vs psi (like Static, Emotive Control, and Psi Shield, Downtime for healing stress in pod-morph) = pretty much immune character. Add 2x forks and psi jammer and exurgent can pretty much suck it.

As for (3) anti-tank punches - synth, pneumatic limbs + Necrosis+ cyberclaws + 3 limbs holding shive/knife? Is that it?

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Btw. - about articulated

Btw. - about articulated weapon mounts - how are they cover by mechanic? They do not require ambidexterity, correct? So to save CP I can just have one ambidexterity trait, 2 normal lims (heavy pistol in each) plus 2x concealed articulated weapon mounts inside my shoulders and have 4x rail heavy pistols without worrying about off-hand penalties since.. well, they are not hands :).

As for melee, so far I played only few sessions but each time I can say- shredder is always the best melee weapon. The penalty doesn't really matter if you are combat moster anyway and shredder will out damage every melee build on Full Auto with 100 magazine size plus -10 AP but also covers cone in front of you and you can hit few targers with it. And you can concealed it and add toxins/nanotoxins/chemicals. I know the argument "what if you are thrown naked without weapon bla bla", but same is for blades. Only unarmed is really the safe melee when you only think about scenario when you might be without anything.

I was watching few interviews with ex-SEALs and some other ex-military guy and each of them when asked "best self defense system/training to defend in CQC/vs knife/vs multi opponents" said: "get a gun".

And so far in EP I agree with it :).

Ow, another thing. Zap rounds are OP vs meat bags (bios) :). You can have most loaded Remade/Fury biomorph with stacked armor all the way to their ass, with 20 extra limbs and 10 assault rifles, all best mods/augs. One action turn with full auto zap rounds and they have make so many tests vs shock that even if one fail- bum, they lie on ground and battle is over :)

I'd forgot. How do you calculate exaclty a morph max velocity?

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
Rules (and other things) Hacking

Me wrote:

2: You can make a character with 4 rep networks, one of which operates at over 100 - as long as you make rep requests at less than 80, each network can operate at 70-90% before morph bonuses.
3: Antitank punches.
6: You can make a character who can crack a cyberbrain in ~2 turns depending on rolls.

#2: For each favor that your character's Rep exceeds the favor's tier, you gain a +10 on the test. There is a trait that allows you to reduce the tier of all favors in the Research rep network by 1 level, which is why my Cuban/Extropian smuggler character was also a published mathematics professor.
After you buy at least a Networking of 60 on whatever reps you wanted (plus specializations), it mostly comes down to buying everything you want as a single shopping list, once per mission. Because if you use up your lower tier favor, and want to use it again you have to spend a higher tier favor.

#3 If you have a certain kind of GM you can also gain bonus HTH damage with the Combat Exo, which is perhaps why most GMs take it away from me when I buy it.

#6 If you pair the original A.I. background (1/2 skill cost for computer skills) with the Expert trait, you can get Interface to 90, take a Hacking/Subversion specialization for 100, and then tack on bonuses like Profession: Sysop or Academics: Computer Science at 61 for a +30 modifier. Math Wiz is also a possible bonus. Use an accelerated Simspace and your Programming of 80 to upgrade your entire hacking suite to +30. Unfortunately you can't get psi, or else Pattern Recognition would also tack on a +10. After that point, you add in 2 Alpha forks for 2 lead hackers and 2 support hackers for a +30 each.
By that point, you are in the neighborhood of 190 for rolls.
You can rush the hacking attempt by taking a -30 on your roll (dropping you to 160) which reduces hacking time to ~60%, which you are then doubling by having 2 hackers (all of you). Your enemy's firewall can be used as a penalty on your hacking attempt, but even the best things are described as having no more than a -50, which means you have to be hacking in the middle of an EMP before you can possibly even fail the roll.
The only pity is that, without being able to use psi, you also can't take the sleight that reduces "planning time" by 20%.

Sudo drop your weapon.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
FrivolousVector wrote:After

FrivolousVector wrote:
After that point, you add in 2 Alpha forks for 2 lead hackers and 2 support hackers for a +30 each.
By that point, you are in the neighborhood of 190 for rolls.
You can rush the hacking attempt by taking a -30 on your roll (dropping you to 160) which reduces hacking time to ~60%, which you are then doubling by having 2 hackers (all of you). Your enemy's firewall can be used as a penalty on your hacking attempt, but even the best things are described as having no more than a -50, which means you have to be hacking in the middle of an EMP before you can possibly even fail the roll.
The only pity is that, without being able to use psi, you also can't take the sleight that reduces "planning time" by 20%.

Thanks but I still don't see how does it make combat hacking in 2 turns. Does every Alpha Fork cut down the hacking time if they all hack the same thing?

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Benny89 wrote:I'd forgot. How

Benny89 wrote:
I'd forgot. How do you calculate exaclty a morph max velocity?

See Transhuman p. 218.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
DivineWrath wrote:Benny89

DivineWrath wrote:
Benny89 wrote:
I'd forgot. How do you calculate exaclty a morph max velocity?

See Transhuman p. 218.

Thanks!

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
Brainhack

Benny89 wrote:
Thanks but I still don't see how does it make combat hacking in 2 turns. Does every Alpha Fork cut down the hacking time if they all hack the same thing?

It's mostly a result of hacking being described in terms of "number of actions" instead of "number of turns". So if you stack Speed with the Multitasking implant, you are making ~4 assisted actions per turn. Basically, you reduce the standard time by 60% and then divide by 4. By that point, you have a hacker who can crack your mesh in less time than it takes for you to turn it off.

Sudo drop your weapon.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
FrivolousVector wrote:Benny89

FrivolousVector wrote:
Benny89 wrote:
Thanks but I still don't see how does it make combat hacking in 2 turns. Does every Alpha Fork cut down the hacking time if they all hack the same thing?

It's mostly a result of hacking being described in terms of "number of actions" instead of "number of turns". So if you stack Speed with the Multitasking implant, you are making ~4 assisted actions per turn. Basically, you reduce the standard time by 60% and then divide by 4. By that point, you have a hacker who can crack your mesh in less time than it takes for you to turn it off.

So...4 mental actions per turn x 4 hackers = 16 actions per turn for hacking?

But I can't find in corebook where this is described (the way forks hack the same target to cut overall hack duration). Do you know more less where it was? I am trying now to find it :(

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
General hacking rules are

General hacking rules are p254 EP Core
Cyberbrain hacking specifically is on p261
There's a lot more rules in there than I'd type up myself.

Sudo drop your weapon.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
In actual games, more than two guns is usually overkill.

Benny89 wrote:
That is just your interpretation (which is my main grip- there is not enough information about Heavy Combat armor in corebook). Also you can still have Synthetic Mask over it. Core book says only "bulky and visible", which can mean anything from just heavy muslec bodybuilder guy (take even Coleman, he can still wear cloths, no?) or gorilla.
SNIP

You really think there would be ANY difficulty to get Body Armor suited for Gorilla morph or heavy armored synthmorph? Really? We have smart skin, smark cloths, nanophages, plasma swords, spray skin and other silly things and they can't get body armor size/shaped suited for something like that? Come on man. There is also no rule saying you can't have body armor over shape adjusting morph- which if we go 100% by RAW must means that Body Armor must be made from smart materials, no?

You can have armour upgrades, and you can have a synthetic mask, but nowhere does it say the mask goes 'over' the armour - in my head having both means you look like a biomorph wearing armour, and the heavy armour is simply bulkier than the light armour variant.

Sure this is just my interpretation, but it's based on the rule restrictions rather than conflicting with them. It also makes sense to me that armour add-ons can't be practically masked in the same way as innate armour, because innate armour is going to be precisely configured to the Synth's internal structure and can represent redundant/hardened systems, whilst add-ons work by simply adding reinforcements and protective structures throughout the whole.
Having them work on different principles also explains why the two types of armour stack instead of one overriding the other.

It's the same with Shape Adjusting - you can wear armour if you have shape adjusting, but that doesn't mean that the armour has shape adjusting too (though some amount of smartmaterial is to be expected).
Just because gear for exotic body types is easy to get, it doesn't follow that all gear can be used by all body types.

The flip side of all this is that making new or unique effects is both flavourful and remarkably easy – you can absolutely say that your version of EP treats things differently, or that the character in question has a custom version of the armour augmentation or armour suit to prevent this issue.
You just have to acknowledge that it's different from the default.... and be prepared for silliness like having a normal suit and a custom suit to wear over it, and another to wear over that... and then mount plasma swords on the wrists, because YAY :P

Benny89 wrote:
Btw. - about articulated weapon mounts - how are they cover by mechanic? They do not require ambidexterity, correct?

Afaik they still require ambidexterity; they're a limb with a weapon attached directly instead of a having manipulator.

Urthdigger wrote:
I'm going at this with a bit more than simply how much damage one can put out in a combat round. True, slapping as many articulated weapon mounts as you can on a synth means heavier weapons without any real penalty, but it's quite noticeable and hard to move around in unless you're using concealed weapon mounts in which case you can only use smaller weapons like pistols anyway.

Four limbs doesn't look out of place even if it's two prosthetics on a splicer, and even a few more biological morphs like the scurrier and octomorph come with enough built in (And ok, an octomorph, takko, or neo-squid could probably get away with doing this with assault rifles. Or plasma rifles). Draws a little attention, but not overly much. Plus if we're going with limbs over weapon mounts, taking ambidexterity means spending a bit of CP to almost double the damage over taking larger weapons.

Maybe I'm weird, but I prefer using diplomacy and stealth to get into a position where I can do more effective damage over a frontal assault. I like the thought of looking completely harmless and then catching them off guard with an unexpected assault.

Pffff, if you're going to be sensible about things :P
I tend to design my characters with a key focus – if it's going to be a combat character then it's going to be a COMBAT character. On the other hand, if I'm going for sneaky or diplomacy then weapon skills and gear are going to be sidelined in favour of things like Implanted Nanotoxins or Poison/Drug glands, maybe a hand laser.

Oh, and explosives.
Lots and lots of explosives.
And a Puppet Sock, or an emergency Farcaster if necessary.

Hardening [Suicide] is Fun!

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

Afaik they still require ambidexterity; they're a limb with a weapon attached directly instead of a having manipulator.

Hm, I don't think that is correct. I took a look in corebook and weapon mounts are not listed as extra limbs. They are not limbs. They are weapon mounts. Frames. Did you watch a Predator movies? They have a plasma gun on their shoulder, which is fully articulated. This is how weapon mounts work. You have a mobile frame that can hold a weapon and shoot when you want it to shoot. You don't need to pull a trigger with hand.

However, nowhere is said (at least I can't find it in corebook now) that weapon mount is considered an extra limb and applies off-hand penalty. Because well, weapon mount is not a hand.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Yep articulated weapon mounts

Yep articulated weapon mounts are not limbs. How do you resolve their fire? Hell if I know.
Mental Action to shoot with Weapon skill?
Slave it to your rifle and just add the sweet damages?
Use Gunnery skill?
Attack for each mount separately? Or once?

All depends on the GM.

But thanks to them Flexbots make solid combat morphs.

Exurgents wanna eat your ass and you are low on ammo? Register to mobile gear catalogue at eldrich.host.mesh! ORDER NOW! FOR FREE PLASMA MINIMISSILE PACK! *explosive delivery options included

Benny89 Benny89's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:Yep

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Yep articulated weapon mounts are not limbs. How do you resolve their fire? Hell if I know.
Mental Action to shoot with Weapon skill?
Slave it to your rifle and just add the sweet damages?
Use Gunnery skill?
Attack for each mount separately? Or once?

All depends on the GM.

But thanks to them Flexbots make solid combat morphs.

I treat it as just additional gun so same rules as with multi wield- additional weapon test (but without off-hand penalty) because I think PC has to focus eyes/vision/turn head where he wants mounted weapon to aim/follow (they still have smartlink or laser if replaced it) same as his hands follow his vision to aim and shoot, but hands require muscle memory/coordination (hence off-hand penalty) while weapon mount is automated frame llinked to your cyberbrain/vision. If he wants to shoot different target with mounted weapons than with hands - same penalty for seperate targets as normally when you want to hit multiple targets. I treat it simple like that.

Or I let my hacker friend (she rides my ghostrider) to "mount" them, give her access to my 360 vision sensors and let her use her Gunnery skill to shoot around :).

Imo it makes sense because it give Synth another edge in Combat - which is logical as they are machines and since they are robots- there is no problem mounting autmated weapon systems on them. It's all a matter of aiming software, simillar to mounted automated weapons on nowaday platforms.

FrivolousVector FrivolousVector's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:and

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
and be prepared for silliness like having a normal suit and a custom suit to wear over it, and another to wear over that... and then mount plasma swords on the wrists, because YAY :P
...
Oh, and explosives.
Lots and lots of explosives.
And a Puppet Sock, or an emergency Farcaster if necessary.

Hardening [Suicide] is Fun!

And this is why TWNW is one of my *other* favorite people.

Sudo drop your weapon.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

You can have armour upgrades, and you can have a synthetic mask, but nowhere does it say the mask goes 'over' the armour - in my head having both means you look like a biomorph wearing armour, and the heavy armour is simply bulkier than the light armour variant.

Sure this is just my interpretation, but it's based on the rule restrictions rather than conflicting with them. It also makes sense to me that armour add-ons can't be practically masked in the same way as innate armour, because innate armour is going to be precisely configured to the Synth's internal structure and can represent redundant/hardened systems, whilst add-ons work by simply adding reinforcements and protective structures throughout the whole.
Having them work on different principles also explains why the two types of armour stack instead of one overriding the other.

At this point is just two different interpretations of what core books says.

As I see it:

For example in Cyberlimb Plus you have clearly stated that "can't be masked". Yet none of the Robotic armor upgrades have it. Therefore I assume all can be masked.

Plus Combat armor is upgrade to the Synthmorph chasis. Not armor over it. It's upgrade. Same like you have a 60 kg skinny guy and you implant him with High-G, Muscle Augumantation, hardened skeleton and intense training. And suddenly he is 90 kg muslces guy and he is definitely bigger and wider after all that.

Thus I see it this way: Combat Armors description says: "The synthmorph’s frame is loaded with armor" -> means it's frame (skin, chasis, however you call it) is upgraded with more armor. Next is "the bot frame is encased in a heavy-duty carapace. It increases the bot’s built-in Armor". It increases his built-in armor. It is straigh upgrade to his skin, chasis. Simillar to how carapace armor or bioweave is biomorph skin, just upgraded. So you can't apply Combat Armor OVER Synth Mask because this is not something you can take off by your own or have anything between your chasis and Combat Armor. Combat armor IS your morph new Chasis, new skin, it's upgraded "bot's built-in Armor". Then it can be covered by Synthetic Mask because it's not said that it can't. What can't be covered by Synthethic Mask is listed in corebook: for example Cyberlimb Plus or Liquid Steel morph etc.

You are saying about "rule restrictions" but there are none in RAW. Combat Armor by RAW can be covered by Mask and there is nothing in core book that says otherwise. Combat armor is morph chasis. It's not Body Armor over chasis, it's whole chasis/frame upgrade. From heads to toes.

Rest is house rule, which I understand and respect, we all have some house rules in RPGs.

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:On

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
On the other hand, if I'm going for sneaky or diplomacy then weapon skills and gear are going to be sidelined in favour of things like Implanted Nanotoxins or Poison/Drug glands, maybe a hand laser.

I've never actually gone for nanotoxins, poisons, or drugs as an offensive option myself for one very simple reason: Anyone that's likely to be a threat can most likely afford medichines and nanophages. I suppose it's not complete immunity, but it's enough protection that I'd really rather not rely on it to do the job. Oh, and if they sprung for toxin filters then yeah, completely immune and there's no real way of telling beforehand that your mark doesn't have them.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Unfortunately, I can't find

Unfortunately, I can't find much info on articulated weapon mounts either. We're going to have to make some judgement calls.

I'm going to point out that an extra limbs cost 250 [Low], while articulated weapon mounts cost 1000 [Moderate]. (not cyberlimbs, but robotic enhancement extra limbs). I think its quite reasonable to expect articulated weapon mounts to be able just as articulate as normal limbs.

Look at the Rover morph (Morph Recognition Guide p. 82). The picture used is a good example of what I think articulated weapon mounts can do.

The ambidexterity trait says it negates penalties for off-hand fighting. It doesn't matter if it is a hand, tail, tentacle, etc. Emphasis on etc. I think it should work the same for articulated weapons as it takes effort and concentration to use multiple weapons.

In regards to the example of weapon mounts following where the head points, I think those weapons are being controlled by an AI instead of the person. They just follow where the head points. Limited AIs have built in limitations preventing them from exceeding basic professional training.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
DivineWrath wrote

DivineWrath wrote:
Unfortunately, I can't find much info on articulated weapon mounts either. We're going to have to make some judgement calls.

I'm going to point out that an extra limbs cost 250 [Low], while articulated weapon mounts cost 1000 [Moderate]. (not cyberlimbs, but robotic enhancement extra limbs). I think its quite reasonable to expect articulated weapon mounts to be able just as articulate as normal limbs.

Look at the Rover morph (Morph Recognition Guide p. 82). The picture used is a good example of what I think articulated weapon mounts can do.

The ambidexterity trait says it negates penalties for off-hand fighting. It doesn't matter if it is a hand, tail, tentacle, etc. Emphasis on etc. I think it should work the same for articulated weapons as it takes effort and concentration to use multiple weapons.

In regards to the example of weapon mounts following where the head points, I think those weapons are being controlled by an AI instead of the person. They just follow where the head points. Limited AIs have built in limitations preventing them from exceeding basic professional training.

The Price - 250 for Extra Limb vs Articulated 1000 for weapon mount is exactly another point why I think Articulated weapons are NOT counted as hand or off-hand. Because they would be useless otherwise. Would be cheaper to just slap 2 or 4 extra hands at same price and have the same thing as mounted weapon! In my opinion this is where the Synthethic combat morph advantage is shown- that it can have automated weapon mounts for higher price and thanks to that Synths/Robots have another way of multi-wielding than extra limbs. Cheaper option is extra limb for bio and synths and require training because you have another limb you can move with muscles/servomotors and that require coordination from your body.

The reason why extra limb (hand/leg/tentacle) needs ambidex trait is because your limbs does not move automaticaly where you want in perfect synchro. That is why we train muscle memory, eye-hand coordination, we repeat some moves hundreds of times - to simulate automated process of moving hand and gun to where you look without much of brain process.

Weapon mount does not need any sort of muscle memory or coordination. It's a weapon system attached to your body (simillar to how tanks have autmated missle systems on them, flares etc.). Of course it requires aim from you (focusing vision) and choosing fire-rate but it doesn not require ambidex, because it's a automated system.

Also "off-hand" is off-hand, another hand, hand. Automated Frame is not hand, unless you want to treat a flash light mounted to combat helmet as off-hand too....

Think logically- why would Extra Limbs be separate than weapon mounts if there was no difference? That wouldn't make sense. Weapon mounts are something different than cyberlimb or extra limb as shown in corebook. It's different augment. Also it makes perfect sense for robots to have automated weapon mounts. I mean even nowadays we have weapon mounts that work that way on various of combat vehicles/planes.

Sure, some people may think otherwise, but I think that many just do not want to give synth another advantage over biomorphs in combat (because skipping off-hand penalty is big advantage) but for me it makes perfect sense- robot will always be better combat monster than flesh and has much more options of weaponized systems to install due to it's mechanical body. Weapon Mounts are not extra limbs, because extra limbs (which are called LIMBs) are seperate augments. As for AI- again, this is not RAW. By RAW weapon mounts do not mention AI, therefore PC must control them. Of course RAW says you can give control to anything in your body to another ego/AI/fork, so you can do that I am sure. But by default weapon mounts are operated by body user.

Also Ambidexterious description:

"The character can use and manipulate objects equally well with both hands (they do not suffer the off-hand modifier). If the character has other prehensile limbs (feet, tail, tentacles, etc), this trait may be applied to a limb other than the hand. This trait may be taken multiple times for multiple limbs"

Limbs, limbs, limbs. It even describe what kind of limbs- tail, tentacles, feet, hands etc.- all are animal/humanoid limbs. I also focus here on etc., as its listing a limb-kind of augments. It's same as "this weapon mounts can be mounted on various ground vehicles such us: hammer, tanks, heavy transport trucks, military cars ETC.". And then (because of etc) we can think "ow, so bicycles and choppers too!". Weapon Mounts are not listed as limbs, they do not imitate any kind of limbs. Think of War Machine minigun attached to his shoulder or Predator Plasma Gun- what kind of limb does it look like?

Also final argument: Weapon mount can be mounted any where in synth body. So you can have 2 heavy pistol fixed mounts (one direction) coming out from your chest (shooting boobs anyone :D ?), because they can be concealed. I don't see how that would look to anyone as "extra limb" :). Or you can have your stomach frame opening and having shard pistol shooting in front of you- extra limb? lol.

I treat weapon mount as off-hand only if it's concealed inside limbs (because you still have to use your limbs to aim them to right direction) or fixed on limbs. Otherwise for me it just shoots where you look at and signal them to shoot (I call it mental trigger).

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Now we're in house rule

Now we're in house rule territory. You're adding something that wasn't there to begin with. There isn't anything wrong with house rules, but don't try to pass them off as actual rules.

When I say limited AIs, I mean AIs with a skill cap of 40. Egos can easily surpass that limit. If you want your weapons to hit their mark, I recommend against relying on Limited AIs.

I can't find much precedent for your way of controlling articulated weapon mounts. The next best I can think of is different kinds of remote control. Its possible to give orders to multiple AIs at once, then they try to complete in the best way they can. For instance, "shoot this target".

If you want to talk about value of equipment more, I should note that there are many augments that specifically deal with multiple actions. Multi-tasking, Mental Speed, Neurachem, and Reflex Boosters. They are all pricier than articulated weapon mounts.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
DivineWrath wrote:Now we're

DivineWrath wrote:
Now we're in house rule territory. You're adding something that wasn't there to begin with. There isn't anything wrong with house rules, but don't try to pass them off as actual rules.

Sorry, but it was you who said A) Weapon Mounts are limbs and B) that they are controlled by AI

Corebook says nothing about above, therefore we started with your house rules. By RAW none above is correct.

While issue certainly requires some subjective interpretation and approach from GM, by RAW: Weapon Mounts are not listed as Limbs nor described as limbs, that is fact and they are not said to be controller by anything, therefore it's far more logical to assume (same as with most implants without detailed exception) they are being controller by EGO inside morph.

Those are facts by RAW. Or if you prefer- facts by what RAW does not say.

I believe that in this case we can agree that anything further than "weapon mounts are mounted and hangs there" can be said to be house rule because corebook has no more detailed information about weapon mounts. We can only try to follow logic or personal preferences.

And I repeat my arguments: every other augment which is a limb is described as limb: cyber, cyber plus, extra limb. Also- what would be the point of weapon mount if it was a limb, if you already have 3 limb augments that can hold weapons? Especially Extra Limb is 4 times cheaper.

Second: you can have concealed weapon mounts (by RAW description). Again, if your synth chest/stomach/leg/shoulder/back etc opens and you have there pistol mounts firing in front of your (fixed version of mount)- does that look like a limb to you?: https://imgur.com/a/cJeyG

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
We're getting nowhere with

We're getting nowhere with this argument. How about we stop and worry about something else.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
DivineWrath wrote:We're

DivineWrath wrote:
We're getting nowhere with this argument. How about we stop and worry about something else.

I am ok with that :). Although I treated it as discussion, not argument (if I got that correctly, I am not native speaker).

EP has too many holes in rules... The more I read EP the more I see it as swiss cheese.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Well, I'm getting tired of

Well, I'm getting tired of this and I don't like skimming through the books in a futile search for something new. :(

Anyways, the shoulder mounted stuff strikes me a swivel, not articulated. When I think articulated, I tend to think of those robots used to build cars. Many many turning joints.

Edit: Well, its also the stuff I kept finding when looking up articulated. Articulated robot arms.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Narcoalgorithms finally explained

Another OP stuff (that I finally found and add together): Narcoalgorithms.

I think many of you (reading corebook), had no idea how to treat them. They are software. So they travel with ego. Are they infinite? They do not have "expire date"? Are Drug Glads useless then on Synthmorphs? Once bought- you basicelly has permanent software that boosts you up?

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. Why? Because they are being treated as Plug-Ins. They can be access immidietly, deleted in Quick Action and sits in your ego forever. Which Transhuman book finally explains (scattered info as always in EP).

Ok, so first. Corebook, page 323:

"Narcoalgorithms are software programs that simulate the effects of drugs on biological bodies. Almost all bio, chemical, and nano drugs can be replicated as narcoalgorithms, with corresponding effect (gamemaster discretion). Standard duration is 3 hours. Addiction to narcoalgorithms is considered mental. Narcoalgorithms may be run by infomorphs, egos encased in cyberbrains (pods and synthmorphs), simulmorphs, and even AIs."

Ok, that is all. But we know we can get Klar, Drive, MRDR, Kick etc. as software. Ok, now to explain that they are Plug-Ins.

Transhuman, page 149:

"The same drug-emulating narcoalgorithms (p. 323, EP) used by egos sleeved in synthmorphs also work on infomorphs. Treat them as plug-ins (p. 148) for rules purposes. Inflicting a narcoalgorithm on an involuntary infomorph requires a successful brainhack (p.148)"

Then page 139: SOFTWARE PLUG-INS

"Plug-ins are simply programs attached to the mind- state emulation software, so that the ego may access them immediately. A plug-in requires a Complex Action to install; once installed, it is “carried” by the infomorph, so that if the infomorph moves to another device, the plug-in moves with it. Plug-ins may be deleted with a Quick Action. Almost any software (pp. 331–332, EP) can be installed as a plug-in, including standard programs, scorchers, and skillsofts (the latter require virtual skillware to run)."

Finally Page 139 again, red box CYBERBRAINS AND INFOMORPH SOFTWARE:

"any of the plug-ins and upgrades available to infomorphs can also be integrated into the cyberbrains found in pod morphs and synthmorphs (though some are really only useful to digital beings). The same rules for acquisition and installation apply. Certain software may note special rules when used with cyberbrains. Eidolons may not be run on cyberbrains. No infomorph software can run on the biological brain of a biomorph. The cognitive architec ture of a biological brain is simply not set up to run programs."

So what does it mean- as synthmorph with cyberbrain just buy all good narcoalgorithms at character creation and you have infinite egocasting combat implants that are plug ins and can be accessed IMMIDIETLY (as per quote from page 139 Transhuman). No activation time, no expiration, standard 3 hours duration, trated as plug ins for synths.

Therefore my Drug Combat Synth build just became even more broken :)

EDIT: DivineWratch- google "articulated weapon mount" and go graphics- you will see. You google arm so obviously it will find arms. EP says "mount" so google mount :)

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
OK, so I might be wrong. I

OK, so I might be wrong. I was flipping through the pages of X-Threats, and some examples have articulated weapon mounts without there being any obvious articulated robot arms for them. See Dreadnought p. 104, and Warbot p. 147.

I'm also no longer sure what a swivel weapon mount is supposed to look like.

I'll take some time to think about it.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
At the risk of reignition...

I'm going to skip most of the quotes for the sake of legibility.

Benny89 wrote:
Hm, I don't think that is correct. I took a look in corebook and weapon mounts are not listed as extra limbs. They are not limbs. They are weapon mounts. Frames. Did you watch a Predator movies? They have a plasma gun on their shoulder, which is fully articulated. This is how weapon mounts work. You have a mobile frame that can hold a weapon and shoot when you want it to shoot.

The reason I see Articulated Mounts as limbs is the nature of their control - if the Synth has direct control over the mount rather than using an intermediary, so that it's motions can be controlled directly, then there is no meaningful difference between it and any other appendage.
If the mount is being controlled by an automated system, then this does not apply... but you're controlling an independent weapon system, so you would either use Gunnery rules, or you would be directing an independent AI (both of which are completely valid).
The trick here is that the system which is being directed to control the weapon has direct control, and treats it as a limb from it's point of view.

In other words, the predator doesn't have an articulated mount, it's armour does.
Thatt said, using AI-controlled Mounts definitely belongs on this thread.

FrivolousVector wrote:
And this is why TWNW is one of my *other* favorite people.

Yay! :D

Urthdigger wrote:
I've never actually gone for nanotoxins, poisons, or drugs as an offensive option myself for one very simple reason: Anyone that's likely to be a threat can most likely afford medichines and nanophages. I suppose it's not complete immunity, but it's enough protection that I'd really rather not rely on it to do the job. Oh, and if they sprung for toxin filters then yeah, completely immune and there's no real way of telling beforehand that your mark doesn't have them.

Sure, but taking care of those guys is the GunMonkey's job.
This guy's deal is to walk around calmly, shake people's hands and find the architecture fascinating... incidentally dosing mooks with grey ranks/laughing policeman ("You trust me don't you? I'm going to be playing a prank, so just ignore any alarms you may hear."), BringIt/Hither ("No, I have no idea why your henchmen have decided to have angry sex in the hallways."), and leaving small amounts of saliva/Scrapper's Gel (Drug glands can produce chemicals) on the door locks.
If the GM's okay with producing other types of Nanotech, you can do this whilst shedding Disassemblers and Suborning Swarms like they were Dander.
For extra points, always introduce yourself as Helen.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:I'm

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
I'm going to skip most of the quotes for the sake of legibility.
Benny89 wrote:
Hm, I don't think that is correct. I took a look in corebook and weapon mounts are not listed as extra limbs. They are not limbs. They are weapon mounts. Frames. Did you watch a Predator movies? They have a plasma gun on their shoulder, which is fully articulated. This is how weapon mounts work. You have a mobile frame that can hold a weapon and shoot when you want it to shoot.

The reason I see Articulated Mounts as limbs is the nature of their control - if the Synth has direct control over the mount rather than using an intermediary, so that it's motions can be controlled directly, then there is no meaningful difference between it and any other appendage.
If the mount is being controlled by an automated system, then this does not apply... but you're controlling an independent weapon system, so you would either use Gunnery rules, or you would be directing an independent AI (both of which are completely valid).
The trick here is that the system which is being directed to control the weapon has direct control, and treats it as a limb from it's point of view.

In other words, the predator doesn't have an articulated mount, it's armour does.
Thatt said, using AI-controlled Mounts definitely belongs on this thread.

AI-controlled Mounts are an option definitely, as corebook says about that (ghost rider, plug-ins, multi-personality implant etc.). However by default mounts are not said to be controlle by anything but a Ego, which was my point. Of course it is possible to give control to AI/ghostrider to almost everything within your body, especially synth.

The reason I don't see them as limbs is simple they do not require any muscle memory, which is how humans learn ambidexteriuous. So in combat I treat them as seperate weapon test, but do not apply an off-hand penalty.

Because, again, there would be NO point of articulated mounts if they had off-hand penalty as limbs, because you would be much better to just buy your self "Extra Limbs" or "Cyber Limb" implants for 4 times less credits and have the same effect. Weapon mounts are more expensive and they have to function differently than limbs, or there is simple no point of them apart from having small arm concealed weapon.

And predator Plasma Gun is an armor part, but armor is linked to his helemt which is linked to his brain activities, thanks to which he can aim without using any hands/limb motions with his helemt vision (equiped with targeting system) and mentaly fire plasma gun.

In case of Synth you just skip armor part because whole synth is basicelly walking armored robot or humanoid armor if you prefer and Weapon Mount is simple directly linked to his body/cyber brain. Predator had to use armor to have weapon mounted and helemet with targeting system because he is biological creature, not robot so he needed platform for his systems to be carried/installed.

Synthmorph is the platform so everything is installed directly to it.

Synth is robot so you just plug such weapon mount system to him directly.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Getting back to topic since

Getting back to topic since we off-top too much :P

Another broken/munchies tactic is playing Synthmorph and getting yourself best software plug-ins (as I explained above in my Narcoalgorithms post) and have permanent egocasting "implants". Since you start a game with your current back up that means that you will pretty much have all of this forever, unless you will somehow loose your backups due to some GM sheme :).

So the following things are being treated (read my post http://eclipsephase.com/comment/63419#comment-63419 and ThatWhichNeverWas post: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/63427#comment-63427 to fully understand plug-ins) as software plug-ins for informorphs and cyberbrain users:

- Narcoalgorithms (Drive, Klar, MRDR, Kick etc etc.), Eidetic Memory, Endocrine Control, Hyper Linguist, Math Boost, Memory Lock (p. 149, Panopticon), Mental Speed, Oracles, Parallel Processor (p. 189, Rimward), Skillware.

While you may want to buy some other upgrades for your body instead, think about it- if you buy any of those above- you won't lose them on egocasting. Also all plug-is can be "access immideitly" as per Transhuman.

So I think Narcoalgorithms, Mental Speed, Skillware (!) and Endoctrine Control are definitely worth to always get as software plug-ins at charcater creation.

Especially Skillware + Skillsofts. Think about it. You buy Skillware as software plug-in (same price) t egocast with you. Skillsofts are also software so they also egocast with you. Skillsoft cost 5CP and Skillware 5CP too.

So lets say your combat Char has low COG and you won't spend on COG skill anyway since you are combat char. You spend 50CP- Skillware, Skillsofts x 3 (40, 40, 20). And you have 100 CP worth of skills for 50CP.

And since all are software (including Skillware)- they always egocast with you. You can't improve them later (you wouldn't anyway). Choose skill you can take extra time on tests for bonuses and you are golden :).

Synthmorphs ftw I guess :/

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