May 29 - Actions and Combat - Feedback Thread

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AdamJury AdamJury's picture
May 29 - Actions and Combat - Feedback Thread

This is the feedback thread for the Actions and Combat chapter, updated on May 29th.

It can be downloaded as part of the EP2 Open Playtest at: http://bit.ly/ep2playtest

We are getting down to the wire for this playtest. This is likely to be the final update to the Eclipse Phase Second Edition playtest. At this point, core mechanics and major features are locked down. Things to look for:

• Numbers and terms that are inconsistent or seem off-base with each other
(IE: a number/rule/term was updated in one chapter but not in another, or a number in text that contradicts a table).
• Unclear wording or explanations, typographical mistakes.
• Rules that are easily exploitable that lead to un-fun game situations, characters mechanically hogging the spotlight, etc.
• Places that should have cross-references (“p. XX” references) to other sections but do not OR vice-versa — places that seem to have excessive cross-refs.

Please exercise restraint in back-and-forth posting in this thread.

Grim G Grim G's picture
Feedback on what I read so far

I'd like more info on how freezers can deploy cover. Does it take an action? Is there a specific mode that you need to switch to? How much area does it cover? A 1 meter wide chest-high wall?

Why can't a Battle Laser be fullauto? it strike me as a beam machine gun, so it'd just seem natural.

I also see that Pulsers are now 2 handed and Particle Beam Bolters can't go full auto, why?

I don't really like the idea of shredders being one handed, I mean it is a buff, but aesthetically 2 hands makes it look sexier, like a futuristic AA12. I also don't like that shredders and shards are no longer AP. I thought that was the whole point of them, that shotguns weren't good against armored targets.

Honestly, what makes the SMG any better than the assault rifle? They are the same size category so they can't be concealed any better, deal less damage, have a smaller mag, have less range, and yet they are still in the same price category. I can think of 2 ways to fix this. First is to give rifles and MGs the No Point-Blank rule so SMGs are more favorable in close quarters, and the other is to give the SMG a larger magazine capacity (the p90 can hold 50 rounds in it's bullpup mag). The latter idea would probably be less complicated and give these longarms a parallel with pistols (light for novice spray-n-prayers, heavy for disciplined gunslingers).

I still don't like that Light Pistols are now called Machine Pistols. If an MP is an automatic, one-handed gun, then all 3 pistols count. Besides, Medium implies that there is something it is between.

Much like with SMGs, what's the point of using anything other than the Heavy MG? Everything under it is just a step down in quality without a step down in price.

So, Snipers are AP. Chemical variants can get AP ammo and rail variants come with the addition of AP. How does this stack? Is there a double AP? Do you ignore all armor? Personally I think that should be the case at the cost of -1d10.

So it says Small morphs get a -20 for gear that's 2 handed and NOT modified for their size. Does this mean that a Neotenic can still snipe properly as long as the rifle is custom made?

I don't like the face that Diamond Axes are AP and Monofilament Swords aren't. Especially since it still states that swords can cut through metal. In 1st Ed they both filled a role. axes were easily available, higher damaging, and good for soft breaching like polymer doors or aerogel walls. Swords were one-handed, and good for facing armored enemies. Now for the same price, the only advantage a sword has can be negated by simply adding a new limb.

I like that Arm Slides actually serve a purpose now.

Are we to assume that homing rounds can basically turn on a dime? I'd like at least a general understanding of their turning radios.

The 1 in the chamber rule for guns is really neat, although I can imagine some people ignoring it for simplicity. On that note, I think a Sniper should be 10+1. A nice round number.

That's all the feedback I have for this section right now.

Androminous Androminous's picture
Page 10:

Page 10:

Hitting a target that is within 2m of you and actively is trying to avoid being hit would be harder when you are wielding a rifle than if the target is somewhat farther away. I suggest giving Assault Rifles and larger firearms the No Point-Blank feature. This would also give incentives for choosing handguns and sub-machine guns instead of rifles for close quarter fighting, as is the case in the real world. This pertains to bullet point three - it is un-fun to discover that you are the only player in Eclipse Phase Second Edition who willingly has acquired a sub-machine gun and thus made an sub-optimal choice for your character. Choices that aren't real choices are un-fun.

No RPG needs three different types of machine guns. At least not if there is no real mechanical reasons to choose the lighter ones. My prediction is that no player who is in need for a machine gun will willingly acquire something lighter than a heavy machine gun. Machine guns will hopefully be a rare weapon seen among player characters, and I think most games will go well with the abstraction that all machine guns are alike in the important way - it's deadly to be in the wrong end of one. This also falls under the principle of choices that aren't real choices are un-fun.

I don't understand why a sniper rifle should be Armor Piercing by default. Most snipers would choose their ammo carefully for the kind of mission they have. A weapon/bullet that penetrates and has less stopping power is sub-optimal in many cases where you want to be absolutely sure the target stays down. A hollow point to the head would be a better choice in many cases. The sniper rifle being AP creates a lot of questions and leads to you having to make some special rulings:
* Is the sniper rifle still Armor Piercing if you use hollow point or biter ammo? If not, do you add the +1d10 DV that is deducted for the sniper rifle being AP? If it is, any player with some knowledge of weapons will complain about realism.
* What happens if you load it with AP or RAP ammo? Do you ignore armour or does nothing happen? If the latter, why do snipers need to be less careful about what ammo they carry than users of other rifles?
* What happens to sniper railguns? Do they get an extra +1d10 DV due to this having been implicitly deducted twice or do they ignore armor completely? If not, why doesn't a sniper railgun get more stopping power or other benefits?
So, the sniper having AP by default is in my opininon un-fun because it will lead to a lot of rules discussions and discussions about realism. Just leaving it out and add +1d10 DV will give players more real choice and adds to realism.

More technical things;

Something funny has happened to the rail gun row in the Kinetic Weapons table. What are x2, the DV (sounds excessive) or the ammo capacity? If it is the DV that is doubled, the cost should be made a level higher than for normal firearms or else no one would choose anything but railguns.

On page 11 you need to fix the paragraphs SMART AMMO and SPECIALTY FIREARM AMMO. Accushot, Hollow-Point and Plastic ammo should all be types of speciality firearm ammo and be listed under that heading with the cost from the table on the same page. Smart Ammo is also a type of speciality firearm ammo that should be listed under that heading, not having it's own heading at the same level. It should be made clear in the text that it can transform between being any of those former three ammo types. As it stands it is unclear whether you can use smart ammo in railguns, with my suggested fix, it won't be necessary to state that they can't explicitly.

I hope this is helpful for you.

Lazarus Lazarus's picture
Do you want to leave Seekers

Do you want to leave Seekers as using scramjets? That seems to be a troublesome bit of fluff as it would imply that Seekers have radically reduced performance in locations without sufficient atmosphere such as the surface of Luna. You will also have people debate as to whether a scramjet can function properly in locations with oxygen poor atmospheres such as Mars and Titan (there's nothing inherent in the nature of a scramjet that says it can't carry an oxidizer but as current designs do not it is likely to cause arguments between some players).

My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.

Androminous Androminous's picture
WEAPON/GEAR TRAITS

The WEAPON/GEAR TRAITS chapter is hidden on page 22 between SURPRISE and TACTICAL NETWORKS and is hard to find since you usually have to consult it when reading about the weapons on page 7 to 13. Consider putting it before page 7, since this is general information that is good to know about when reading the tables and rules on the following pages. If some of the traits pertain to gear in general, I recommend you considering repeating them at the beginning of the gear chapter.

BlckKnght BlckKnght's picture
Standard Grenades

Are standard grenades the same complexity as mini-grenades? If so, there doesn't seem to be any reason to ever take the mini ones, even if you don't want the extra AOE (since you can dial down the effect size to whatever you want on the fly). Unlike with micro-seekers, smaller grenades don't have any magazine capacity benefits, since you can only ever throw one grenade at a time and there are no limits (other than GM fiat) to how many you can store in your pockets. Perhaps it should be the same complexity for two (or maybe three) standard grenades as for five mini-grenades?

It's also not very clear if the "Uniform (x2)" bonus to AOE has any effect on centered blasts or if they only get the extra d10 of damage (which also expands their effective AOE, though by a lot less than double). Maybe the doubled Uniform blast radius and the extra damage should be alternatives, so a given standard grenade can only get one?

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Jumping on grenades is always

Jumping on grenades is always inferior to throwing them back.
It is the same REF check, but consequences of success are better for the player throwing them back and consequences of failure are the same for the jumping on a nade.

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CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Please elaborate whether when

Please elaborate: when using Full Defense or running away, can you use Athletics or Free Fall at full value or is it halved like Fray against ranged attacks?

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ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
The foam of destruction...

Freezers:
For the love of robo-cthulhu, please put some way of getting out of Freezer foam in the rules. As written, just like in version 1, the freezer can effectively 1-hit-kill pretty much anything.
My preference is to change it so the target is Grappled instead of Paralyzed, letting them use SOM to get out, but just put something in there.
Seriously, the giant hulking warmachine is more vulnerable than a Scurrier.

Weapon Systems:
This segement seems out of place. I assume it's there for layout reasons, but maybe make it into a sidebar?

Kinetic Weapons:
I agree that SMGs and most machine guns are redundant, and no-point-blank makes sense for rifles. Also (and maybe I'm missing something) why are the ammo counts all X+1?
Aside: For the record, I don't agree that the Sniper shouldn't have AP as a default, because it makes sense with armor being ubiquitous and enables different gear combinations, regardless of whether AP can stack or not.
Thematically, it's not firing AP rounds, it's firing heavier/larger rounds.

Beam Weapons:
Is the Laser Pulser supposed to have Full-Auto? Because as written it's on par with the Plasma Rifle.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

ubik2 ubik2's picture
p. 4 The cost of Eelware and

p. 4 The cost of Eelware and Piston Spike don't match the prices in Gear on p. 17.
p. 4 The [Mod] cost of Shock Baton does not match the [Min] cost in the table on p. 5.
p. 11 It's not clear if Plastic ammo is supposed to have the stun effect against synthmorphs, bots, and vehicles. The text mentions pain, but it's reasonable to apply the same game effect against synths/bots. The table has a version of the Stun trait that's a little different, but the standard Stun trait would be more realistic (with bonuses for armor and size).
p. 11 Accushot and Bug (assuming it's intended to do full damage) ammunition should probably match the Restricted status of Standard ammo.
p. 14 and 15 The cost of Scale/Carapace Armor and the cost of Dermal Armor do not match the prices in Gear on p. 17. The Restricted status is also different.
p. 15 The armor value of 4/2 for the Vacsuit (light) does not match the description in Gear on p. 40
p. 20 Perhaps there should be a -30 penalty to Fray (and Melee) checks while Prone.
p. 22 This adjustment to DV sounds like it would stack with the adjustment for Armor-piercing ammunition on p. 12 for a total of -2d10 DV. It may be intended to stack with RAP ammunition. It's unclear if it's intended to apply to the seeker missile and grenade entries. It would probably be clearer to remove the DV portion of the text and simply incorporate the appropriate modifiers into the applicable ammunition entries.

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
My preference is to change it so the target is Grappled instead of Paralyzed

I wanted to second this excellent suggestion. I'd probably leave out the Reflex check in that case (letting Fray be responsible for simulating that).

Also, if you add No Point-Blank to all the rifles, the SMG gets a (small) role back.

Androminous wrote:
As it stands it is unclear whether you can use smart ammo in railguns...

The Smart ammo section indicates that it is firearm smart ammo, which means it can't be used in railguns. Of course, some reorganization could make that more clear.

Edit: Some later additions
p. 16 Should "changing flux ammo" be "changing smart ammo"?
p. 16 "Extnded Magazine" in the table should be "Extended Magazine".

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
I would like to get a just a

I would like to get a just a feeling for this kind of thing:

Would any of the Devs consider a combination of:

Light Bioweave + Second skin + Armor Clothes + Combat Armor to be -20 worthy?

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Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
It explicitly states that

It explicitly states that anything with a + before it is an accessory that doesn't have layering penalties. They do mention that at GM discretion it may be applied if you feel they're being excessive, though I personally don't feel it's too bad (skin, underarmor, normal clothes, and some body armor over it). Though, it does seem like the kinetic armor hitting 22 would mean most normal characters would be overencumbered by it.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
I'd probably rule that if you

I'd probably rule that if you have more than one adder and the total exceeds your SOM, you get the layering penalty. This lets a morph with Bioweave wear a Battlesuit without crazy SOM, but restricts the layer abuse. It also lets tough players wear more armor than frail ones. This does restrict a player with a Ballistic Shield, Bioweave, and Body Armor, but frankly, these players should be eating a penalty to actions (nobody is doing parkour with a ballistic shield).

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
It... already does that? If

It... already does that? If total AV for either armor type exceeds your SOM you get the same penalty as layering (-20) and half movement speed as well.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Urthdigger wrote:It...

Urthdigger wrote:
It... already does that? If total AV for either armor type exceeds your SOM you get the same penalty as layering (-20) and half movement speed as well.

This is true for non-adders (like an Armor Coat and an Armor Vest), but the original question and my suggestion are for when there is one layer and some adders (like Armor Clothing).
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
While a bit more

While a bit more clarification probably wouldn't hurt, I find it easy to read it as being able to have a single non-accessory without penalties. Accessories and light armor not adding to the penalty can be read as it being considered the same as nothing as far as the penalty goes. AKA "Just a combat armor? No layer penalties. Add an accessory to that? Doesn't change anything, still no penalty."

Xagroth Xagroth's picture
For the armor stuff, I would

For the armor stuff, I would suggest a definite value past which the +AV counts as the two layers (the "free" first, and a second because it surpasses the value, thus imposing the -20).

Game Mechanics, pg 5, Initiative Order: I would like to confirm that 1d6 is added to the Initiative value... I mean, why not 1d10? While it opens more the initiative rounds, it also removes the need to have another type of dice, so having just 2d10 per player is enough.

Gear, pg 47: The Shield Drone lacks a price/complexity tag. I would also add a note mentioning it is the Riot Shield from Actions & Combat pg 15, without the shock attack option.

I would also add a Seeker "backpack", essentially something like a Seeker Rifle with more ammo (unless it's simply a Seeker Rifle that can be controlled with a smartlink connection). They would need some extra work, I'm afraid, since it's more of a mortar-like support weapon: it fires in an arc (unless you go prone!) and uses rules for Indirect Fire.

I am still missing a "drone master" chapter, frankly. While I plan to open a thread about builds in EP2, I think it should be a kinda popular option that deserves its inclusion in the corebook, specially regarding how to use one, face one, and specially how to manage a kinda "massed combat" system (I would expect, however, some sort of supplement that will help us to use miniatures for at least represent combats in a more or less organized way).

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Organisation Ahoy!

There are quite a few references to time-accelerated simulspaces (both in this chapter and in others) without a page reference.

Xagroth wrote:
I would also add a Seeker "backpack", essentially something like a Seeker Rifle with more ammo (unless it's simply a Seeker Rifle that can be controlled with a smartlink connection).

Wouldn't this just be a weapon mount with extended magazine attached to the character's armor, maybe with a dedicated AI? I'd quite like to see something like an Ammocase/Reloader-Ware for synths/exosuits though.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

ubik2 ubik2's picture
In case you weren't already

In case you weren't aware, the seekers can already fire in indirect mode. The individual missiles can function as accushot or homing, and homing missiles are capable of indirect fire.

Xagroth Xagroth's picture
ubik2 wrote:In case you weren

ubik2 wrote:
In case you weren't aware, the seekers can already fire in indirect mode. The individual missiles can function as accushot or homing, and homing missiles are capable of indirect fire.

Yes, but all the weapons listed are either guns, something attached to guns, or a bracelet that fires the missiles... thus my wanting of something more like a backpack, with more ammo capacity and more focused on indirect fire only (since you always fire "up" unless you are Prone).

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
There are quite a few references to time-accelerated simulspaces (both in this chapter and in others) without a page reference.

I have a question here about Forks: they are listed as "safe" (more or less) for reintegration up to 48 hours... That means 48 subjective hours for each Fork? Just to be sure, since it is possible to have a team of forks running nonstop into an accelerated simulspace churning out blueprints and then the exterior one...

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

Wouldn't this just be a weapon mount with extended magazine attached to the character's armor, maybe with a dedicated AI? I'd quite like to see something like an Ammocase/Reloader-Ware for synths/exosuits though.

We would need more details on the battle armor, since right now we only know it's 25/25 or so (Metal Gear!!!!). The idea is for a weapon with more ammo that is simply a guided thingy.

Incidentally, those missiles would require some sort of Decoy ammo type to impose negative modifiers to the enemy attempts to shoot them down, since indirect fire is slower than direct fire ^^

ubik2 ubik2's picture
I'd personally limit it to a

I'd personally limit it to a subjective time of 48 hours max for any fork being merged. It's those experiences which cause the divergence, and more experiences means more divergence.

There's an entry for the Battlesuit on p. 51 of Gear which mentions the addition of 2 Vigor pool points and faster movement (8/32), as well as some other details.

I think in EP2, you no longer have seekers taking multiple turns. It looks like they are treated the same as the other weapons (though it's possible I overlooked something). Even without the unrealistic initial boost to mach 6, for a reasonable range, a missile should reach the target in the same action turn. A few km away, both the bullet and the missile are going to arrive in a later turn, but it doesn't really make sense to simulate this for a game.

Lazarus Lazarus's picture
ubik2 wrote:. . .

ubik2 wrote:
. . .
I think in EP2, you no longer have seekers taking multiple turns. It looks like they are treated the same as the other weapons (though it's possible I overlooked something). Even without the unrealistic initial boost to mach 6, for a reasonable range, a missile should reach the target in the same action turn. A few km away, both the bullet and the missile are going to arrive in a later turn, but it doesn't really make sense to simulate this for a game.

Was there something in the current edition of EP that says that it takes multiple turns for a seeker to reach its target? I thought they were already treated pretty much identical to any other weapon with the exception of indirect fire.

Not that I'm arguing against them working differently. I kind of think they should. A character's skill should probably help with locking onto a target but once the missile is locked on the odds of success shouldn't have anything to do with the character. This is significant because most of the time if a character doesn't have a target lock they probably wouldn't fire and waste the ammunition. Additionally the 'second stage' where the rocket has to home in means highly skillful characters would generally benefit from other firearms.

On the other hand adding a complete additional set of rules to simulate how seekers 'really' work might not be worth the additional complexity.

My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Oops. I think I mixed up a

Oops. I think I mixed up a rule from another game. You're right that seekers don't take multiple rounds to reach their target in EP1 either.

Fearsomesole Fearsomesole's picture
Cover system

While preparing for a game, I got slightly confused about how cover works. So during combat, defender can be behind minor, moderate or major cover. I understand the idea behind this, but cant seem to come up with a consistent idea of what cover modifier to apply and in which situations. Though what confuses me the most is the "defender hidden -- -30 or 50% miss chance". If the attacker cant see the defender but knows that the defender is behind some tall(major cover?), should it be considered as major cover or hidden, so 50% chance to miss? Is there any rule for when the defender is hidden? What might be the way for defender to become hidden, is it an active effort or more like just not revealing themselves? I tried finding some explanation in combat rules, but found nothing. Any ideas?

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
AFAIK the hidden enemy is -30

AFAIK the hidden enemy is -30 to hit AND then even if you hit you have 50% miss chance.

Major cover is when you know where the enemy is but they are protected. For example you see them with T-rays.

Let's consider 2 situations.

1. The target is hiding behind tall but slim obelisk and I can see him with T-rays. Target would be in Major Cover.

2. The target is behind a wrecked tank opaque to T-rays and the tank is large enough to move about and possibly pop-up anywhere behind tank silhouette. Target would be Hidden.

It is my interpretation. I

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Fearsomesole Fearsomesole's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:1. The

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
1. The target is hiding behind tall but slim obelisk and I can see him with T-rays. Target would be in Major Cover.

2. The target is behind a wrecked tank opaque to T-rays and the tank is large enough to move about and possibly pop-up anywhere behind tank silhouette. Target would be Hidden.

Okay, this makes sense. So basically, when the attacker doesn't have a visual on the defender, even if the attacker roughly knows where the defender is, defender is hidden?

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
AFAIK the hidden enemy is -30 to hit AND then even if you hit you have 50% miss chance.

In the actions and combat rules on page 3, it states that blind attacks are -30 or 50% miss chance. Same thing again on page 7 with defender is hidden. However if the character has blinded condition, it's -30 to physical actions and 50% to miss. I suppose it's open to the GMs interpretation, when it should be -30 to roll or when 50% to miss.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Yeah, it is all about GM fiat

Yeah, it is all about GM fiat.

Also I would require the players to tell me where they shoot and of they guess correctly then they would get the Hidden enemy.
Similar to DnD invisibility.

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BlckKnght BlckKnght's picture
Using an Infomorph and Jamming a Synthmorph (or Pod)

For a test character I was building today, I found what seems like it might be an abuse of the rules. If you are sleeved as a infomorph, you can host yourself in the cyberbrain (or mesh inserts) of a synthmorph (or pod) and use drone jamming and your own Puppet Sock to essentially have all the features of both morphs at once. There seem to be very few downsides, which can mostly be worked around. Except for the fairly modest MP cost of the extra morph, it seems almost entirely better than sleeving a synthmorph directly.

When jamming, you get the Insight and Moxie pools of your infomorph, and the Vigor pool of the drone. Since the pools you're not using will often be very low (often zero), this is almost entirely a benefit. For instance, an Ikon jamming a Case (a combination that costs just 1 MP) has more Moxie than a Galatea (which costs 5MP), and being charming is supposed to be the whole point of the Galatea! (I imagine this as being something like C3PO becoming a god to the Ewoks, only it works on everybody.)

If you get the "Drone Rig" ware for your infomorph, you can use its Insight pool to supplement the physical morph's Vigor pool. This means that an Operator jamming a Case is better than a Savant in almost every way (you're only worse at running fast and at taking physical damage), and it costs just 2 MP instead of 4. It's pretty closely comparable to a Steel.

If you take the cheap ego trait Drone Affinity, there's no need to make an Integration test when Jamming. And it's not just an issue with that trait, as you can probably avoid some or all of those tests anyway by taking the ego trait Familiarity for one or more of your preferred morph types. Familiarity can also addresses one of the only other downsides of this scheme, that Infomorphs have a higher level of the Exotic Morphology trait than most Synthmorphs (so your Integration tests when egocasting or resleeving after death may be harder to pass).

Is this working as intended? Am I missing some rule that makes the combination of Infomorph jammer and Synthmorph drone non-viable? Can the issue be fixed? (My only idea is to cap the jammer's pools at the drone's levels +1 or something. Or just jack up the MP costs of the non-Digimorph infomorphs by a few points, to make directly sleeving a synthmorph come out with better pools for the same cost.)

ubik2 ubik2's picture
There may be a bit of a

There may be a bit of a loophole with the Case, where if you take the Case as your main morph, then take the Ikon as a secondary morph, the net cost is 1 MP, while if you take the Ikon as the main morph, and the Case as the secondary, it costs 2 MP. I'm going to assume that's intentional, though.

I think the synth morphs are generally a little weak compared to the bio versions. Galatea has Chameleon Skin, Enhanced Hearing, and an extra Flex point, but the main source of her high cost is the DUR. The Case also has Inherent Flaws. The net of those differences is 4 MP, though purchasing gear with MP is generally a very bad deal. The Futura has 7 pool points (4 Moxie) for 4 MP, which is a much better deal.

For physical interactions, the Steel has a lot of advantages compared to the Case. The medium frame and high DUR really make a difference in a combat environment.

One real concern is whether there's any reason to sleeve in a morph instead of hosting in the cyberbrain and puppet socking. For any morph with a decent Insight or Moxie pool, that's probably not worthwhile. For a morph without a cyberbrain, it's not an option. That leaves a lot of good morphs (including pods). There's the small cost of Drone Affinity and Drone Rig, but that's pretty minor, and you don't really even need the Drone Affinity.

It might not be sufficient, but you might try charging an additional morph point for extra morphs used at the same time. In the case of Case + Ikon, this would result in a total cost of 2 MP. If the morph is just available for resleeving, but not being used, this surcharge wouldn't apply.

Another part of this problem is that a lot of gear costs came down, but the original prices were used in computing the MP costs of the various morphs. That means Enhanced Hearing and Chameleon Skin probably added 1 MP, where now they would only add .5 MP. This drives up the cost of a lot of the synths.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Seconding that it looks like

Seconding that it looks like the various morphs, Pods and Synths both, should re-run their cost math to account for updated gear complexities. (Of course, we're assuming that the old excel sheet is still the same formula as before)

A slight smell of ions....

Xagroth Xagroth's picture
I think the Morph section of

I think the Morph section of Character Creation needs some extra detail, as it stands, it seems like you can spend Resources directly as Morph Points, and then you get 6 Morph Points... Considering how the most expensive morph is 6 points (12 is the Reaper, but... it's a Reaperbot XD), I think that either the Devs wants us to grab one of the Infomorph "sleeves" plus one physical Morph, or something similar... I mean, it's quite easy to start with a 4 points Morph and a 2 points IM, and then you can throw on top of it a spare Case (selected as the first 0 cost Morph for free), and if you add the Resources advantage, just having 4 out of 20 points there allows you to start with a Case, a Fury and a Jammer Infomorph... Sounds kinda "too good" to me.

I don't remember if I saw it somewhere, but letting you spend Morph Points for starting morph implants (over what you start with) sounds a better option for me.

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
You can spend your extra MP

You can spend your extra MP on positive morph traits.

Grim G Grim G's picture
Railguns=-DV?

So railguns give any weapon the Armor-Piercing trait, does that mean that there's a -1d10 to that weapon now? Because that seems to go against the original purpose of railguns, which was straight-up more stopping power at the cost of flexibility.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Grim G wrote:So railguns give

Grim G wrote:
So railguns give any weapon the Armor-Piercing trait, does that mean that there's a -1d10 to that weapon now?

Page 22 states that weapons listed as Armor-Piercing already incorporate the DV modifier, so you don't need a -1d10 for the railguns.
ubik2 ubik2's picture
Urthdigger wrote:You can

Urthdigger wrote:
You can spend your extra MP on positive morph traits.

Also on Flex (limit of 3 points) and ware (not a very good deal).
ubik2 ubik2's picture
BlckKnght wrote:For a test

BlckKnght wrote:
For a test character I was building today, I found what seems like it might be an abuse of the rules. If you are sleeved as a infomorph, you can host yourself in the cyberbrain (or mesh inserts) of a synthmorph (or pod) and use drone jamming and your own Puppet Sock to essentially have all the features of both morphs at once. There seem to be very few downsides, which can mostly be worked around. Except for the fairly modest MP cost of the extra morph, it seems almost entirely better than sleeving a synthmorph directly.

If you're hosted in the Mesh Inserts (rather than a server, or the cyberbrain), you're also a lot more vulnerable to having bad things done to your mind. This may be the case for a ghostrider as well, but I'm not certain. That doesn't address hosting in the cyberbrain.

It's a bit of a stretch, but you might rule that when sleeved this way, hacking the Mesh Inserts disables the ability to use the Puppet Sock, thus paralyzing the player. I made a Combat Hacking thread, where I suggested that perhaps you can disable the wireless network when being hacked to defend yourself. Really, if that's the case, you should still be able to communicate between the cyberbrain and the puppet sock, though (so it doesn't solve this problem).

It isn't supported by the rules, but you might rule that for all but the Digimorph, you need to be hosted on a server (or multiple hosts). This does solve the problem, but it may mess up party dynamics if the infomorph character can't go with everyone else somewhere.

Xagroth Xagroth's picture
ubik2 wrote:Urthdigger wrote

ubik2 wrote:
Urthdigger wrote:
You can spend your extra MP on positive morph traits.

Also on Flex (limit of 3 points) and ware (not a very good deal).

I think that flex will last only until the next resleeve. But yeah, extra mods for the morphs are a thing... just not one we should be applying libreally else the resleeving process gets bogged down (I'd let the players to custom one morph or so, and just that).

Incidentally, I'm not sure if it's been addressed, but there should be a note that you cannot "buy" extra MP by clogging one cheap morph (let's say a case or a flat) with disadvantages to pay for another morph's advantages (let's say having a Fury and an advanced infomorph and something else).

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Xagroth wrote:Incidentally, I

Xagroth wrote:
Incidentally, I'm not sure if it's been addressed, but there should be a note that you cannot "buy" extra MP by clogging one cheap morph (let's say a case or a flat) with disadvantages to pay for another morph's advantages (let's say having a Fury and an advanced infomorph and something else).

Page 12 of Making Characters says that if you have multiple morphs, you can't purchase negative traits for any of them. I think this means that the Case can still have Inherent Flaws, but you can't add any new negative traits.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
I think instead there should

Edit: reposting this in "Making characters thread"

I think instead there should be a minimum morph MP cost that negative traits bring the morph to. For example 1 MP. You already cannot have a morph with negative MP. So this would be less clunky. If you want an army of cases you can still probably do that.

I would also consider giving Cases an "Uncomfortable Sleeve" trait. You get stress when you engage in an activity that the Case is unsuited for. For example climb a long set of stairs your servos overheat. You are frustrated, get stress.
Your charging port malfunctions you have to push on emergency power before you can get it fixed. There is plenty potential to signify how shit... (Corporate Policy.Exe -user override) MINIMALISTIC these morphs are. Right now anything that the GM does to signify that can be seen as antagonistic by the players.

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Grim G Grim G's picture
ubik2 wrote:

ubik2 wrote:

Page 22 states that weapons listed as Armor-Piercing already incorporate the DV modifier, so you don't need a -1d10 for the railguns.

Ok, but that's for weapons that already have them. Railguns add it. Something that is not specified.
Grim G Grim G's picture
I don't like dialing back

I'm not a fan of this grenade rule. It kinda makes the No Close trait kinda moot. Besides that, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to using micros.

Grim G Grim G's picture
Can someone delete the above

Can someone delete the above spam? No idea how that happened.

sysop sysop's picture
done

done

I fix broken things. If you need something fixed, mention it on the suggestions board.I also sometimes speak as website administrator and/ moderator.

Dr. Maxwell Dr. Maxwell's picture
The Piston Spike is not noted

The Piston Spike is not noted as concealable on the weapon table despite being concealable on the modification table.

The monoblade not having AP may or may not be an error, but it was noticeable enough that a player relatively new to EP was confused by it breaking the thematic 'rule' of mono.

I would like to note the idea of running an infomorph and then puppet socking 'yourself' is very strange and confusing to new players, and is thematically weird, and likely should not be allowed as it is one of those things that is completely non-intuitive and doesn't make sense in universe. The idea of never having a physical body even if you don't want to be an infomorph being 'meta' is so strange it likely would turn people off from the game. Morph points may not be extremely high value, but there are benefits to you having to many for your morph, as 'ware and gear allows you to further customize your body and physical existence and make it your own. From what I understand this isn't a 'waste' because your morph points seem to be a permanent resource you can spend any time you resleeve, rather than being lost with your old body.

Seconding the need for guns to have niches, even ones that aren't nominally that useful. If a gun is a strict downgrade in every way, including cost, it should not exist. The confusing terminology for handguns is also an issue. Rifles being unable to fire point blank is a good change as it not only gives value to SMGs and handguns, but to the very idea of assaulting a target in close quarters, and allows Firewall agents in a scenario they don't have access to firearms to get the drop on a hostile through cleverness and tenacity who otherwise would literally completely out gun them, which is very 'in theme' for a spy game.

Don't forget to check out my open source biomorph and medtech files!

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Dr Maxwell IIRC you are

Dr Maxwell IIRC you are dwelling on the forums long enough to remember the old dispute of starting as a case/infomorph vs getting a Reaper with Speed 4. I think that Morph Points are pretty good abstraction to move around that issue. Especially when you are egocasting and relying on local Firewall resources.

For other types of games without big organisation to support you I think there should be a rule for losing MPs to represent a huge resource loss that is losing a morph or some interaction with Resource trait. Right now MPs cover only change of morph without loss where you are able to sell your morph or rent it out or something.

Puppet socking yourself is an viable tactic right now. It should be somewhat discouraged. Maybe a reintroduce a penalty to actions when Jamming full morphs?

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CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Hmm Jamming should be

Hmm Jamming should be somewhat distinguished from full sleeving.
In my 1ed game I considered stealthing some Ghostriders to long-term Puppet Sock morphs with indentures in them to hide a bunch of my alpha forks even from a brainscan.

RAW 2ed right now I can do that. Without any "mechanical" troubles.

The authors could be okay with that. I could be okay with current interpretation.

It could be just left as is, as one of weird consequences of Transhuman tech.

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CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
As for Jamming it should be

As for Jamming it should be strongly indicated that it is influenced by quality of connection between the body and mind.

As for Jamming through a PuppetSock from a Ghostriders inside the body I would treat it
as is Sleeving. With synthmorphs it isn't especially different from sleeving into the morph itself.

Perhaps there should be different qualities of Puppet Sock. The best ones with no penalties.

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ubik2 ubik2's picture
Dr. Maxwell wrote:Rifles

Dr. Maxwell wrote:
Rifles being unable to fire point blank is a good change...

I like the idea of No Point-Blank on Rifles, but wanted to point out that this doesn't prevent them from firing at point-blank range. It just means they don't get the bonus to hit that would otherwise be available (which makes sense to me).
CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Maybe even more extreme -10

Maybe even more extreme -10 on Point Blank and normal from short range?

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kheradruakh kheradruakh's picture
Light/Heavy combat armor are misleading

Looking at the may29 release on p.15. In the armor table, heavy combat armor is listed as a "+" armor type which would indicate that it can be stacked with other armors. There is nothing I can see that really indicates this armor type is intended to be synth morphs. The description says that its used by shells but there is nothing that states it cant be stacked with combat armor or even a battlesuit for a ridiculous armor bonus at no penalty. I believe this can be resolved by stating Armor Ware and Armor Gear cannot be stacked.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
kheradruakh wrote:There is

kheradruakh wrote:
There is nothing I can see that really indicates this armor type is intended to be synth morphs.

The description on page 14 has the [Hard] tag, meaning it can only be equipped on a synthmorph/bot/vehicle. The rules for that tag are on page 4 of Gear, so it's understandable that you missed it, since these aren't in a single rulebook yet.

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