Making Characters - Open Discussion (Round Two)

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Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
There's probably plenty of

There's probably plenty of real-world anecdotes about people getting jobs they are manifestly not trained for/able to do. I doubt such anecdotes would have gone extinct with the fall of earth.

Remember though: the compliment bonus for Knowledge skills isn't tied to a specific active.

An Ego Hunter could leverage their profession on mesh searches (Research) just the same as they could leverage it when cutting out a targets stack (Medicine).

This is getting away from the main discussion though.

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swordchucks swordchucks's picture
Art and Knowledge

I feel like you're really putting art up on a pedestal as a skill and kind of missing the point. The Active and Knowledge divide is an artificial one meant to draw a line between "things characters use a lot" and "things that make characters fleshed out people". I can't see how Art stacks up against almost any of the other active skills as a central action characters are going to do.

Really, the one thing this conversation makes me want to do is fold Hardware and Medicine into "Know" and rename "Know" as "Background". Or create a single set of active skills ("Repair" and "Care" or something) to eat the field skills and then put the fields into Backgrounds (because, fundamentally, delivering medical assistance to a dog and a human are the same, except for the specific knowledge involved, as is fixing a circuit board that runs the same systems on a spaceship or a habitat).

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Art and Knowledge

I may be biased towards art, I myself draw as a hobby, and have been for a long time. Anyone I ask the community around me professes some inability to draw, or having very poor skill at it because they haven't practiced at for as long as I have. I have personally found it easier to learn about a new subject, or read up on some topic of interest, than it has been to evolve my drawing style over the years.

Even trying to get away from that bias, Art as a skill is, at it's simplest, the act of taking raw products and creating something new. This folds neatly into the crafting/creation skill fields - like Hardware. Even the act of altering something folds cleanly both into Hardware (for objects/synths) or Medicine (for biological creatures/morphs).

Taken in that context, I find it extremely questionable as to why it's necessary to revert art back to a knowledge skill. This flies both in the face of it's apparent mechanical usage, and the in-universe lore about art being this rare and treasured cultural thing - that EVERY character in 1st Edition apparently had - thus completely negating it's rarity and any cultural implications behind it.

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swordchucks swordchucks's picture
Investment

I still feel like you're vastly underestimating the amount of effort that goes into Academics. It's not just data, but rather the knowledge and tools to interpret that data and to know what tools to use at the right times in the right ways to get the right answers.

For instance, take Engineering. I spent a vast amount of time getting an engineering education in school, and it was really all Academics: Engineering. Hardware is a different skillset that most engineers learn on-the-job later on or through specialized Engineering Technology trade programs. Chemistry is similar. A rote knowledge of compounds and interactions is part of the education, but what being a world-class chemist requires is far beyond that. It requires intuitive understanding of the mechanics behind things and using that understanding to draw conclusions and insights.

Art... is remarkably similar to higher order academics, at a fundamental level.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Of course, thought has to be

Of course, thought has to be given not only to difficulty in learning the various subtypes, but in how useful they actually are at the game table in play.

They do have a real cost in character build points, and there's a whole Career of the Academic. His extrem focus on Know skills means that it'll really suck if he turns into a trap option that can't get some useful stuff from knowing as many subjects as they will.

A slight smell of ions....

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
This discussion is wierding me out.

This discussion is really wierding me out.

I'd tend towards making Art a Know style skill, simply because some elements of it cross multiple active skill types; I could see it applying to Hardware rolls, social skills for non verbal communication, interpreting the affect of Habitat architecture on the inhabitants' psyches, that sort of thing.
That said, I can definitely see many knowledge skills applying to Art - I just think it's more likely to see play if it's something that can be drawn on in multiple circumstances.

If it does stay Active, I'd turn it into a Hardware field, because in my head that's the Skill that covers item creation.

-----

Regarding the PDF, can we get a note in the Synthmorph summary paragraph that they possess Shell traits, with a 'See page XX' targeting the appropriate section?

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

swordchucks swordchucks's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:That

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
That said, I can definitely see many knowledge skills applying to Art - I just think it's more likely to see play if it's something that can be drawn on in multiple circumstances.

I'm really starting to like the idea of replacing Hardware and Medicine with Build/Repair and Design as active skills (without fields or with Organic/Inorganic as the fields) and then pushing everything else, from types of hardware or medicine, to Know skills. The main difference between a SpaceVet and a SpaceDoc is just the education aspect. The tools are largely the same.

This would definitely make Art an exercise in Build/Repair and Design with the Art skill being the complementary skill.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
swordchucks wrote

swordchucks wrote:
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
That said, I can definitely see many knowledge skills applying to Art - I just think it's more likely to see play if it's something that can be drawn on in multiple circumstances.

I'm really starting to like the idea of replacing Hardware and Medicine with Build/Repair and Design as active skills (without fields or with Organic/Inorganic as the fields) and then pushing everything else, from types of hardware or medicine, to Know skills. The main difference between a SpaceVet and a SpaceDoc is just the education aspect. The tools are largely the same.

This would definitely make Art an exercise in Build/Repair and Design with the Art skill being the complementary skill.

While interesting if one were making a game from first principles, this feels.... distant from the game as it currently is. Not saying that it's a bad thing, but it feels like a big change in how skills would be wired.

A slight smell of ions....

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Traits and other stuff

One question that struck me: do the +Aptitude check traits stack?

EDIT: Had a thought that struck me with the MP/Availability revisions - people being what they are, and the in-universe risk of being swindled, or having to settle for second/third picks due to availability issues, could there be some kind of bonus to Morph Availability if a player picks a morph with some negative traits? I.e. A player wants a certain morph with a local Availability of 50, but they only need it for a very short time. So they look for a version with a bunch of negative traits, and instead of reducing the MP cost of the morph (or in addition to reducing it) they get a version of their chosen morph loaded down with some 'unwanted extras' that works for the task at hand - with a boosted availability due to the negative traits taken.

Something like: Reduce MP cost of the morph by the negative trait score And/Or improve morph Availability by +5 per negative trait MP

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Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
A few tidbits

Quick editorial note : page 19 under the Ruster morph "dioxide" is misspelled.

Other thoughts:
I'm kind of surprised the neo-avians are 0 MP !

Awww,no neo-cetaceans? C'mon, just one dolphin!

Resources strikes me as kind of an environmental or habitat trait. Like you can use your various Rep scores to access up to the Resource level available. No getting nukes from a Brinker shack!

Current Status: Highly Distracted building Gatecrashing systems in Universe Sandbox!

Eciraf Eciraf's picture
Artist characters

To dig out old topics, I noted a few things that were said while debating about the Art skill's importance.

To me, Art skills were a good solution to make my players spend all these Knowledge points in 1Ed, because coming up with good suggestions was fairly hard, and players didn't need a ton of Language skills either.
Surely 2Ed will see far less artist characters since there are only two packages that provide an Art skill, regardless of being a Know skill or not. For all chargen where there's no time to make fine adjustments or simply no will to do so (streamlined chargen, remember?), I think the question will only be "will I do a bard character by taking one of these background-associated packages? »

Now, I was wondering about the artistic percentage in the population. I always told my players that there were high-end specialized AI and just too much indentures to get the job done cheaper and faster and that freelancers or normal employees would have a hard time finding work.
As a result, this would make Art the only field to which free transhumans could really bring a betterment, particularly for purists. I mean, obviously artist indentures are a thing, but it can't be done on an industrial scale like the mining job, so there's room for freelancer artists.

Now, about the difficulty-to-become-an-artist point.

Lurkingdaemon wrote:
Urthdigger wrote:
A few counterpoints. First, this is a world with time-accelerated simulspace and the ability to immediately look up anything you want. It's logical to assume that people in general learn far more things than the average person today.

Certainly those technologies exist, and probably are used for the purpose suggested, but to use a (admittedly extreme) example from in-universe: the failures of Project Futura and the 'Lost' generation show that time-accelerated simulspace is perhaps not the magic resolution for long term learning.

Unless I am mistaken, the Futura Project’s failure is due to the use of TITAN’s technology. A mere time-acceleration can’t make an async on its own. In my opinion, this failure is only plot tool to discourage the generalization of this practice, on both player and in-universe scales.

Lurkingdaemon wrote:
I may be biased towards art, I myself draw as a hobby, and have been for a long time. Anyone I ask the community around me professes some inability to draw, or having very poor skill at it because they haven't practiced at for as long as I have. I have personally found it easier to learn about a new subject, or read up on some topic of interest, than it has been to evolve my drawing style over the years.

Now, imagine a world where an AI is able to indicate that you have to turn left with a tingling on your left hand. Why couldn’t it use AR to let you feel and show you through your very eyes how you are supposed to move your hand to draw? The vast majority of the population is now part of the clanking masses – meaning they have a puppet sock. Then how about an AI that would take control over your body to correct your movements and have you avoid making any mistakes while playing the guitar for example? More than that, XP are a thing, aren’t they? Maybe major artist XP cost a morph, but buying an able artist an XP where he performs to actually feel how to play should be largely available. Therefore muscle memory is no longer a problem.

Add the fact that paper has been replaced by a virtual interface or that nanoswarms can easily undo your mistakes so you can correct them turning the risk-taking aspect of adding a stroke to your painting to past - and no, in my opinion, Art is no longer a problem in matter of technique itself.

So, what’s left to Art? Expression, feelings. Since the majority of the artists would learn from the same few Skills sources, the challenge would be to be able to uniquely tweak what everybody else is able to do, and use their own feelings as an addition to the process as well. And unless your empathy is very weak, you should be able to do so, given that feelings can come with XP too, so you even already know how it feels to be inspired.
On the other hand, an academic knowledge of the diverse artistic movements would also provide with useful practices and starting points in order to acheive one's own Art, making this knowledge as important as practice (or more?) when it comes down to innovation.

However all this is nothing but my personal opinion and I would love to hear about yours and the creators' points of view.

I'm new to this forum! Please excuse my english, not a native speaker here.

Proxy Bastion Proxy Bastion's picture
Skill Suggestions

Eclipse Phase was originally designed as a classless character system. Archetypes arise from the combination of the aptitudes, skills, traits, and backgrounds of the characters. Many of the players at my tables love EP for its diversity and deep ability to customize their character. I know that it will be important to the game's future to retain those aspects. A consolidation of skills will be helpful, but as they are a central mechanic to the game they need to be diverse.

1) Consider splitting Guns into three skills: Short-arms, long-arms, exotic. The reason being that the type of training for short-arms and long-arms are distinct enough to warrant a separation. This also differentiates two different kinds of characters, one that favors a concealable short range weapon, and one that favors heavy firepower. Exotic can hold the rest.

2) For aesthetic reasons please consider the following Deceive > Duplicity. There are already posts with concerns about using verb forms. There is little reason to change old skill names. We know what they are and what they do.

3) The Exotic skill isn't needed. In an actual game I would likely resort to calling for aptitude x3 tests instead of having a catch all for so many skills.

4) Awareness can be split into two skills of Perception and Inspection. They are related but create two very different characters. A perceptive character is aware of broader picture but an inspective character looks at details. Inspection can combine the investigation and scrounging skills from 1st edition.

Reshy Reshy's picture
I want the Ultimates back

RobBoyle wrote:
Ultimates have indeed been dropped as a PC faction. As you noted, we pushed them more in the fascist/x-threat direction, and we don't want to be encouraging people to play fascists.

I really don't like this direction at all. Turning an entire faction into a "fascism" caricature seems far too political for me, and honestly is rather off putting. Not to mention that there's three factions of Ultimate, and at the very least Iconics seem rather decent and certainly playable. Lumping them all in together is a massive simplifying of the complex setting that Eclipse Phase is supposed to be, and I hope this will be reconsidered.

I mean, if you want to boil it down, the Jovian Republic is just as facist if not more so. So why do they get to slide despite being quite possibly worse than the ultimates? Comes across to me as being too political and hypocritical.

The only reason I can see for this is that the ultimates like to engage in radical self-improvement, which in a game about transhumanity and extensive body modification with advanced technology it seems out of place for this to be portrayed as bad. This is especially jarring when an equally 'bad' faction like the Jovians get a free pass because they're Luddites... presumably. I just don't get it. It feels really out of place and very double-standardry.

I'd really like a better explanation for this decision other than "FASCISTS ARE BAD."

Voormas Voormas's picture
Just because they don't

Just because they don't encourage people to play a faction that is predominantly fascist doesn't mean you can't play one. I think it's a good move to push the setting of eclipse phase along a bit, the Ultimates beginning to consolidate / their aspirations becoming clearer to the rest of Transhumanity.

I note that with character creation your Trauma Threshold no longer explicitly says to round up; I'm guessing that the overall rule of round normally (from the Game Mechanics preview) would instead apply - it's a change I can live with (I will miss the "cheap" bumps ;) but was wondering if there was a playtesting reason for the change, or just a editorial desire for simplicity?

Gear packages all look really good; I really like that Firewall teams now explicitly get a TacNet as part of their standard gear, and I love that starting gear explicitly includes the blueprints.

Reshy Reshy's picture
Injecting politics into EP is a bad idea

Voormas wrote:
Just because they don't encourage people to play a faction that is predominantly fascist doesn't mean you can't play one. I think it's a good move to push the setting of eclipse phase along a bit, the Ultimates beginning to consolidate / their aspirations becoming clearer to the rest of Transhumanity.

As is, they've cut out their background from character creation. I'd say that's pretty much "you can't play one". I don't think that turning the Ultimates into just "Space Facists" is an organic growth of their society. I'd expect a faction that is really three factions to, at the very least, fracture over ideological conflicts. The ultimates aren't a hive mind, they don't all think exactly the same. Just turning them into Bad Guys™ I don't think benefits the setting at all. Jovians are still in as a playable faction, but the Ultimates are out, despite both being fairly 'facist'. The only real difference is that Jovians are bioconservatives and Ultimates eagerly embrace augmentations. Saying that one is considered to be a 'good guy' faction and the other isn't kind of ruins the premise of the setting a bit when it's supposed to be exploring transhumanism.

All in all I don't think that forcing politics into Eclipse Phase is really a good idea. But hey, while we're at it, let's also take out Anarchists, Criminals, Hypercorps, Jovians, and Scum, as those are all offensive to someone somehow. I mean why would you want to encourage players to be Anarchists and Criminals? It's the same logic with them as it is with the Ultimates, if the developers allow you to play them then they're encouraging people to be criminals and/or anarchists. Let people come to their own conclusions about the setting and the factions within it, don't cut out factions or boil them down into paper-thin caricatures for facism. (Not to mention the implicit value statement that it's worse to be an Ultimate than it is to be a Criminal or an Anarchist)

Honestly, if anything I'd have dropped Eugenics from Ultimates as it has basically no relevance and is based on bad science. Instead replace with "Directed Evolution" which is more along the lines of what the Ultimates want to achieve. Rather than using the form of Eugenics most people think of when they hear the word, Nazis.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Are any of the existing backgrounds good for an Ultimate?

Are any of the existing backgrounds good for an Ultimate? It seems to me that with the "faction pick" it doesn't have a whole lot of rules that would need to be changed to rig up a proper Ultimate faction member.

A slight smell of ions....

Proxy Bastion Proxy Bastion's picture
Profession vs. Exotic

As I've read so far the Exotic skill is supposed to be a grab bag of skills too esoteric to have a skill of their own. Based on what I've read here so far it might make more sense to merge the Profession and Exotic skills together and call it Profession. Profession then becomes the active grab bag skill but with roots in the character's past.

clubspecialbee clubspecialbee's picture
Arachnoid typo/error?

Not trying to nitpick but read I this and it's been bugging me (pun not intended) for days:

"Arachnoid shells mimic the shapes of spiders, termites, and similar arachnids."

Termites aren't arachnids! So this sentence doesn't technically make sense. Or, mites are arachnids so maybe this is actually a typo?

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
A couple small things-

For the summary of the Qubit Reservoir in the gear kits- it calls the stored videos "Hi-rez". I may have missed some of lore somewhere, but if it's a video, shouldn't it be "Hi-res", as in "High Resolution"?

I also noticed that many of the kits come with what look like mandatory implants. How would these work if someone took the "Hypersensitivity" trait? Are they just unable to use them outright?

Overall, I'm not a huge fan on the background-based kits. I liked the customization options of previous versions and this limits that a good bit. It hardly breaks the game but I do miss being able to build kits from scratch. I always thought it helped add more personality to a character.

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Reshy Reshy's picture
DoomSmith wrote:Overall, I'm

DoomSmith wrote:
Overall, I'm not a huge fan on the background-based kits. I liked the customization options of previous versions and this limits that a good bit. It hardly breaks the game but I do miss being able to build kits from scratch. I always thought it helped add more personality to a character.

Building kits I hope will still be in the game. I think these are intended for quick start, but in a game where it's hard to define who your character is, if you're unable to choose even what equipment you have that's a very bad thing.

Fearsomesole Fearsomesole's picture
Ego traits and resources

I'm quite new to EP and I decided to start playing the second edition playtest right away to prepare myself for full game, so maybe my question will be more obvious to people who have played the first edition.
I'm confused about how the traits are bought. More specifically, is the cost cumulative? So if during character creation I want my character to have level 2 psi, is the total CP cost going to be 4 or 6?
My second question is, if during character creation I buy level 2 resouces, do I get extra 2MP right away to spend towards my first morph and/or gear or will it have an effect only during the play.
I tried reading about those things in the playtest files, but couldn't find any clear answers. In case my questions don't belong here or I somehow managed to miss the answers to them, I apologise in advance.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
I believe the costs are the

I believe the costs are the total cost, so for level 2 psi, it is 4 CP.

My interpretation of the resources rules are that they apply to the first session as well as the subsequent sessions.

cpt.crush cpt.crush's picture
Fearsomesole wrote:More

Fearsomesole wrote:
More specifically, is the cost cumulative? So if during character creation I want my character to have level 2 psi, is the total CP cost going to be 4 or 6?

Fearsomesole wrote:
My second question is, if during character creation I buy level 2 resouces, do I get extra 2MP right away to spend towards my first morph and/or gear or will it have an effect only during the play.

These two questions also came up during our character creation. We ruled them as ubik2 described (not cumulative; get resource level for starting MP), but they should probably be clarified.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Instability

Looking at the Instability trait, the interaction with Lucidity is a bit confusing. Since it causes a -5 to Lucidity, I would normally assume that it also changes the stats based on Lucidity as well (Trauma Threshold and Insanity Rating). With Trauma Threshold being called out, I'm not sure if it's supposed to have double the effect.

For example, given a character with 15 WIL, the normal stats are:
Lucidity 30
Trauma Threshold 6
Insanity Rating 60

With Instability modifying Lucidity, and updating derived stats:
Lucidity 25
Trauma Threshold 5
Insanity Rating 50

With Instability modifying Lucidity, updating derived stats, and also modifying Trauma Threshold:
Lucidity 25
Trauma Threshold 4
Insanity Rating 50

With Instability modifying Lucidity, not updating derived stats, and also modifying Trauma Threshold:
Lucidity 25
Trauma Threshold 5
Insanity Rating 60

Which of these interpretations is correct?

This impacts Composure and Instability. There's a similar issue for Toughness and Frailty, but since the Wound Threshold and Death Rating aren't defined as being derived from Durability, it seems like the intent is that the Death Rating is not changed.

I'm guessing the third option is the correct one for Instability (based on how Frailty works), but the rules indicate the second option.

Edit: This has been clarified in the Nov 12 version, and is the third option.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
What made you think WT is not

What made you think WT is not derived from DUR?
EDIT:
If it was not, it would be theoretically possible to accumulate modifier from wounds and traumas higher than -100.
EDIT:
spare with structural +10 DUR and WT 3 could get 8 wounds if it took 3 damage at a time.

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ubik2 ubik2's picture
Just a literal reading of the

Just a literal reading of the rules (rather than the intent).

"Making Characters" has the section on Derived Stats (page 11), where it specifies Trauma Threshold and Insanity Rating are derived from Lucidity (which is, in turn, derived from Willpower).

For Wound Threshold, "Making Characters" tells you to get the stat from the Morph's stat block (page 11). While it's clear that the developers have derived it from Durability (and it's listed in Derived Stats on page 3), it's not defined that way. As a result, I assume Frailty doesn't double up on the Wound Threshold deduction.

This is not exactly correct, though, since in "Making Characters", the section on flexbots (page 23) indicates that Wound Threshold and Durability are derived. Also, in "Actions and Combat", both Wound Threshold and Death Rating are specified as being based on Durability (page 32).

In any case, I find the interpretation ambiguous. I'm not sure if the developer's intent is clear to you. I think it would be useful to clarify this in the final rule text. I suspect the final rule text will include a block defining Wound Threshold and Death Rating as derived stats from Durability. If they do this (with the standard DURx1.5 or DURx2 for DR and DUR/5 = WT), then the wording on Frailty becomes an issue as well.

I don't think the spare or structural mods are currently included in EP2, and you're correct that if WT is less than DUR/5, you may get more than 5 wounds, but I may have missed your point.

If I have a Splicer with Toughness 3, is this:

  1. DUR 45, WT 9, DR 45 - treating WT and DR as non-derived

  2. DUR 45, WT 12, DR 90 - treating WT and DR as derived, so they go up with DUR, and then WT goes up again, since that's part of Toughness (almost certainly not intended)

  3. DUR 45, WT 9, DR 68 - ignoring the WT portion of Toughness, and applying the derived improvements to WT and DR

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
I am mostly certain the

I am mostly certain the third example is the intended application of the trait, and the DUR/Wounds/DR rules.

Definitely agree that final text for determining those stats (and the traits in question) should be clarified. Would help folks who get in to EP from 2nd edition, and aren’t aware of the DUR/Wounds rules as they are from 1st edition.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
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jaunty Harrison jaunty Harrison's picture
Color me intrigued to see

Color me intrigued to see ambidexterity removed as a trait, and now to be included in basic Biomods. I'm assuming this means that the mechanics for using multiple weapons in combat are about to be shaken up a little now that multiple ranks of ambidexterity can't be bought on top of one another. I'm looking forward to see what the consequences of this will be.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Latest release clarifies the

Latest release clarifies the rules for Composure et al. Everything works like it should (modifications are to the base stat, and "derived" stats are updated accordingly).

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
jaunty Harrison wrote:Color

jaunty Harrison wrote:
Color me intrigued to see ambidexterity removed as a trait, and now to be included in basic Biomods. I'm assuming this means that the mechanics for using multiple weapons in combat are about to be shaken up a little now that multiple ranks of ambidexterity can't be bought on top of one another. I'm looking forward to see what the consequences of this will be.

I'm curious about this as well, frequently playing with four limbs and making full use of it. It could mean I just saved on a load of CP while still being able to use my preferred tactics. Or it could mean even with basic biomods I only get to use two, and thus need to change things up.

eaton eaton's picture
Really, really like the

Really, really like the return of Attribute presets/templates that appeared in Transhuman. Especially for newcomers dipping a toe into chargen (vs pregens), the presence of attribute tweaking late in chargen brought the process to a big screeching halt. I'd still love to see it happen before packages are selected, BUT the use of templates as the default rather than point-by-point tweaking is a huge improvement.

Still chewing on the other stuff, but that makes me super happy.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
We haven't seen what's going

We haven't seen what's going to happen with multiple ranged weapons. They may end up being simplified, like the melee weapons, where more weapons adds damage, but isn't more attacks.

Given that they seem to have focused on making this version more balanced, I'm guessing the 10 weapon mount morph won't be getting 10 attacks anymore, so it doesn't make sense to charge CP for ambidexterity.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Some typos in the latest version of Making Characters

p. 27: Psi
The summary indicates that you must take Dominant Strain et al. "...all at no CP bonus". Since Dominant Strain requires taking Psi, and it costs 2 points, I assume it costs another 2 points, but maybe it's free.
There's also a slightly odd bit with Mental Vulnerability, where Psi says you must take it, but the description of Mental Vulnerability says you cannot take it if you have Psi. I assume the intent is that you take as many levels as you need for Psi, and no more than that are allowed.

p. 27: Stalwart
The summary of this trait doesn't have a trailing period like the others.

p. 28: Good Instinct
This is called Good Instinct here, and Good Instincts on page 30. Poor Instinct is singular on both page 29 and 35. I have a slight preference for Instincts, but consistency is more important.

p. 28: Instability and Skill Artifact
The summary of these traits don't have a trailing period like the others.

p. 29: Skill Glitch
The summary of this trait doesn't have a trailing period like the others.

p. 28 and p. 36: Timidity
Timidity only has 2 levels, unlike all the other aptitude modifiers. I assume this is intentional, but mention it, just in case.

p. 30: Dominant Strain
I'm glad to see this make a comeback.
It looks like a Psi 2 character will still have Mental Vulnerability 2, so at low infection rating, they'll have a total of -10 to COG and WIL infection tests (and +10 to other infection tests).

p. 31: Natural Immunity
Missing a period at the end of the description.

p. 34: Low Pain Tolerance
"increase the modifier for each wound take by" should be either "increase the modifier for each wound taken by" or "increase the modifier for each wound you take by".

p. 34: Mental Disorder
The last sentence ends with a "/" instead of a ".".

p. 35: Neural Damage
Repetitive Behavior
Presumably intentional humor, but "You unwillingly repeat your actions." is repeated.

p. 35: Real World Naivete
Two problems
First, "the GM may intentionally you when" should be "the GM may intentionally mislead you" or something.
Second, "even when the player is aware of if the player realizes the character’s mistake." should be something like the following options:
even when the player is aware, or if the player realizes the character’s mistake.
even when the player is aware of the character’s mistake.
even if the player realizes the character’s mistake.

p. 36: Zero-G Nausea
"does not fair well" should be "does not fare well"

p. 40: Utilitool is still listed as Minor in the Scientist gear list (Moderate in Academic and Techie). Assuming the correct price is Moderate, the Scientist does have the proper 16 point gear kit.

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
At a glance

Took a quick look through the updated rules last night, and will study them as I can for the next little while.

Likes:

  • The changes to flexbots. They’re a little weedier than I’d like, pools-wise, but now they have oh so many options.
  • Traits for all! Including intruiging changes, with some returning stand-outs and newcomers.
  • Psi gets some love - although there needs to be clarification for whether Dominant Strain is a mandatory purchase, or a freebie as part of Psi.

Dislikes:

  • Art is back to being a Know field. Sigh. Not keen on this for personal reasons, but it’s not worth raising a big stink over it.
  • Wording is a little unclear in places (or has errors, as pointed out above) and needs clarification to avoid the need to house rule for varying interpretations.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


cpt.crush cpt.crush's picture
"Story Arc"

I like the concept of story arc that was introduced with Patron.

Could we use these (and similar) for pool refresh and favors as well?

For example:

  • campaign (1x major favor, full pool)
  • story arc (1x moderate favor, +1d6 pool)
  • scene / session(?) (3x minor favor, +1 pool).
    ubik2 ubik2's picture
    I like the changes to the

    I like the changes to the latest version of Hardened. It makes it easy to create combat characters hardened to violence for 3 CP (Hardening [violence] and Resolve 2). You're still dinged on Persuade, but that's appropriate for a cold blooded killer. Resolve 3 isn't able to completely neutralize two levels of Hardening, which makes sense, since at that level you're far enough from normal that you should have some extra instability.

    Baribal Baribal's picture
    Lurkingdaemon wrote:Dislikes

    Lurkingdaemon wrote:
    Dislikes:
    • Art is back to being a Know field. Sigh. Not keen on this for personal reasons, but it’s not worth raising a big stink over it.
    Makes sense to me, as it's not about *doing* art (which would be the Provoke skill), but about the history, theory, and as-some-snobs-would-say appreciation and interpretation of art. So, the knowledge side of art, not the creative one.

    Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

    Baribal Baribal's picture
    SquireNed wrote:Medical

    SquireNed wrote:
    Medical subskills don't need to be a thing. Really.

    Why do we have three slots for medical specializations on the character sheet? It's an active skill with huge overlap.

    Having it just have specializations would be superior, since I feel like people'll default (and I'd let them do so with a -10 at worst) on their medicine outside their main area.


    I kind of understand that Psychosurgery could be a thing of its own. The rest, however, does (in my lay opinion) indeed have a large overlap. Especially the part where a brilliant paramedic or biotechnician would have no idea how to find out how a morph died, just because the blood isn't pumping anymore and the disorder he could have fixed minutes ago is now a matter of forensics, seems rather bizarre.

    Speaking of bizarre: Know: Psychotherapy. What's that, a bunch of theoretical knowledge that can't be practiced because it isn't an active skill?

    How about two Medicine skills? Medicine: Physiology (specializations: biotech, paramedic, pharmacology, etc.) and Medicine: Psychology (specializations: psychosurgery, psychotherapy, psychopharmacology, neurosurgery, etc.)

    Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

    Automata Automata's picture
    I'm not entirely sure, but in

    I'm not entirely sure, but in your example wouldn't that fall under 'The Knowledge Behind Active Skills' section in the Making Characters guide? It says Active Skills effectively come with the Know to put them to use, and Know skills can add to Active skills as per the 'Complementary Skills' paragraph right afterwards. If you have a related skill or some Know, such as the brilliant paramedic or biotechnician, wouldn't their related knowledge spill over into a good check on what killed someone, instead of them being clueless?

    I'm not trying to be confrontational and don't have enough of a grip on things to comment on your actual point about medicine skills and subskills; I am still learning the system and just want to make sure I understand how skills and knowledge carry over to related topics.

    Baribal Baribal's picture
    Automata wrote:I'm not

    Automata wrote:
    I'm not entirely sure, but in your example wouldn't that fall under 'The Knowledge Behind Active Skills' section in the Making Characters guide? It says Active Skills effectively come with the Know to put them to use, and Know skills can add to Active skills as per the 'Complementary Skills' paragraph right afterwards. If you have a related skill or some Know, such as the brilliant paramedic or biotechnician, wouldn't their related knowledge spill over into a good check on what killed someone, instead of them being clueless?

    That's for "defaulting" to an Active skill when a Know skill roll is called for (i.e. someone versed in Guns could smalltalk with someone about makes and models, although that'd usually call for a Know: Guns roll), and for augmenting an Active skill with a Know skill (where the Know skill has to be different enough so as to cover a different area than the Active skill, so that there is additional knowledge to augment the action). Medicine: [Field] are all Active skill though, so you can't use one to augment the other. As for having an applicable Know to augment the Medicine: Forensics roll, yes, that could happen, but that'd still leave you with having to roll on a low base skill (or even default to Aptitude) despite the character having a high skill in a very similar active skill.
    The paradoxical point here is that because the skills are so similar, the knowledge does *not* spill over, as both are Active skills. So let's just fold similar skills into same skills, and let specializations deal with their differences.

    Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

    Automata Automata's picture
    Huh. I might be getting the

    Huh. I might be getting the difference between Active and Know skills mixed up, in this specific example. I assumed you needed knowledge to find out how they died, so that would be using an Active Medicine skill as a Know: Forensics or similar which says it uses the Active Skill at a -10 to -30 penalty. I guess I was interpreting 'The Knowledge Behind Active Skills' as equating to Know with a lower value (the penalty), which could then be used as a Complimentary Skill, but on second look I'm not sure that works, since it's not actually Know, just equivalent to a lesser amount of it. Good to know.

    If they are both Active and can't do that then I see where you're coming from, and that does seem a bit odd.

    ubik2 ubik2's picture
    It's a larger issue for

    It's a larger issue for Hardware (8 fields), than for Medicine (6 fields). It's a minor issue for Pilot (4 fields, but Nautical and Space are much less common).

    I generally want 5 key skills for a character, and the Techie/Medic characters may not have enough important skills if these skills were consolidated. It would also make it easy for the Medic to be redundant if the Soldier decides Medicine is going to be one of his key skills. Based on that, I'd probably want 4 fields for Hardware, and 4 fields for Medicine.

    I wonder if cross-field defaulting at -30 would address this sufficiently well. The unfortunate part of that is that when you want to pick up a new field, the first 6 or so CP don't get you any benefit (aptitude of 20, primary skill of 80). You wouldn't want this to apply to Know skills, since they are not very related.

    It's likely your Know: Physiology applies to your Medicine: Forensics check, and if you did get the complementary skill bonus when defaulting on a skill (even though that knowledge would normally be included in the skill), that would help. It would mean you'd end up with something like 50 skill (aptitude of 20, +30 modifier). This version is nice, since the Know: Psychology wouldn't apply to forensics, so the psychosurgeon isn't automatically good at it.

    I think an argument can be made that the existing rules would allow this. Using Medicine: Paramedic (rating 80) as a Know: Paramedic (-20 for a rating of 60) gives you a complementary skill bonus of +20 to your default of Medicine: Forensics (aptitude of 20, +20 modifier). Knowledge of paramedics isn't generally encompassed by the Medicine: Forensics skill. This isn't great, though, since the Forensics character might pick up Know: Paramedics at 80, and then pretty much always get a +30 complementary skill bonus. I'd say the rule of thumb about when the knowledge is assumed to be part of the active skill is that if it's applicable more than half the time, it's included, and you don't get an extra bonus.

    TheGrue TheGrue's picture
    Baribal wrote:That's for

    Baribal wrote:
    That's for "defaulting" to an Active skill when a Know skill roll is called for (i.e. someone versed in Guns could smalltalk with someone about makes and models, although that'd usually call for a Know: Guns roll), and for augmenting an Active skill with a Know skill (where the Know skill has to be different enough so as to cover a different area than the Active skill, so that there is additional knowledge to augment the action).

    To me, this mechanic raises a question: If an active skill like Guns overlaps with a Know skill like Gunsmithing or Armourer, and if Know skills give you a bonus on the corresponding Active skill... What mechanically is the difference between having both skills versus having only the Active one but at a higher rating?

    edit:

    Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

    Baribal Baribal's picture
    TheGrue wrote:Baribal wrote

    TheGrue wrote:
    Baribal wrote:
    That's for "defaulting" to an Active skill when a Know skill roll is called for (i.e. someone versed in Guns could smalltalk with someone about makes and models, although that'd usually call for a Know: Guns roll), and for augmenting an Active skill with a Know skill (where the Know skill has to be different enough so as to cover a different area than the Active skill, so that there is additional knowledge to augment the action).

    To me, this mechanic raises a question: If an active skill like Guns overlaps with a Know skill like Gunsmithing or Armourer, and if Know skills give you a bonus on the corresponding Active skill... What mechanically is the difference between having both skills versus having only the Active one but at a higher rating?

    Know skills only give you a bonus if they do not confer knowledge that'd come with the Active skill in question anyway, so in this example, there's no bonus to the Active skill at all.

    Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

    taralx taralx's picture
    So this text appears in the

    So this text appears in the advancement rules: "an additional 1 RP must be spent per linked skill over 60 (with the exception of the character’s native language skill and skills capped at 99)."

    This is a 1e holdover and makes no sense with the significant reduction in RP scale in 2e.

    Automata Automata's picture
    Rep in the wild

    Something I've been wondering about. How do the tiers of Rep translate to regular people? If you're just living in an Autonomist habitat and do enough to get by pretty well, what's your @-rep? Same for c-rep in a transitional economy. If you had 25 e-rep would that show you've done some Gatecrashing, or could you have regularly offered Gatecrashers good deals or done favours for them and they 'paid' you in e-rep? Some, like f-rep or g-rep seem a bit easier to understand how they work since not everyone is in them and your fame/infamy etc are kind of measured by it, but if you live in a particular economy like @-rep, what sort of numbers would you be looking at?

    The Making Characters guide advises 60/40, or 50/25/25, which makes sense from a dice based perspective, but what does that translate to in the setting? Is there any book that explains this a bit better?

    Edit: I'm curious to know this both for NPC's, and also starting characters, or characters using Fake ID's. How much rep should you have to blend in? At what point do you start to stand out, positive or negative?

    DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
    I got some time to make

    I got some time to make characters. I have a few questions.

    Fray and perceive start at x2 their corresponding aptitude right? So a REF of 30 gives you Fray of 60? In general, I don't like freebie points like this. I think it opens the door for unbalanced builds that are built to maximize what you can get during character creation. I'd rather you assigned extra skill points and recommend that characters with good REF and INT should invest in those skills.

    The same goes for extra languages.

    Flexbots. How many systems may a flexbot have at a time? 2 minor or 1 moderate? What about forming extra limbs and other mobility systems? I'm under the impression that flexbots could do a lot back in EP 1st, so I'm looking to do a lot in 2nd edition.

    Familiarity Trait. Can I pick flexbots and expect it to cover all types? Can I do the same with infomorphs? Are there any other broad applications? Does this trait allow me to add and remove flexbot modules without integration tests?

    ubik2 ubik2's picture
    Fray and Perceive do start at

    Fray and Perceive do start at 2x the aptitude. While it's a little messy mechanically, the goal is to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance at those two skills. The rules for advancement are a bit unclear, but in Making Characters, there's the note that if an aptitude is modified, all linked skill ratings are updated, so if your concern was that players need to take those points at generation, it shouldn't be an issue.

    I suspect the language section does have a minor issue here, but it's really just a point or two, and buying languages is uncommon anyhow (when you can just have translation software).

    The Nov. 16 Making Characters doc indicates that each flexbot can adjust to create 2 minor or 1 moderate. The flexbot can also have other ware built in all the time, but the Shape-Changing/Adjusting gives them the 2 minor or 1 moderate for free. From the Morph CP spreadsheet, it looks like extra limbs counts as minor ware (see the Neo-Octopus, where it's costed as 3 minor for the 6 extra arms). It's a bit unclear, but it looks like the extra mobility systems are also just counted as minor ware (see the Reaper, which only has 2 moderate ware and 4 movement modes).

    I don't think you can use familiarity for all Informorphs. You would choose something like Digimorph instead. Flexbots are a lot less clear, but I would rule that you can take familiarity with Flexbot, and that lets you use any of the modules (including adding and removing modules). An official ruling would be nice for that, but Flexbot gets a section as a morph type, and the individual parts are referred to as modules rather than morphs.

    DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
    I've been playing around with

    I've been playing around with flexbots. The problem with them is that you need many flexbots to do the whole combining business. This gets expensive quickly, but by using negative traits, you can reduce them to 1 CP.

    As for buying gear, CP has considerably less buying power. You also have less of it to spend on gear. This has made it difficult to design characters that have the skills to fill multiple roles. For instance, a character might be a good techie person, but also has maxed out infosec skills (80). Getting exploit software will take up a good 1/5th of your given CP. In EP 1st edition, it would cost you 1/20th of your possible wealth, and you had much more CP that you weren't allowed to spend on wealth.

    Proxy Bastion Proxy Bastion's picture
    I concur with this

    I concur with this observation. Profession can lump together a number of related active skills into a more useful mechanic.

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