Making Characters - Open Discussion

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RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Making Characters - Open Discussion

Post all feedback on the Making Characters chapter here.

Get this and other drafts here.

What we're specifically looking for:
* Typos, bad grammar, and other mistakes
* Unclear or confusing text
* Broken or contradictory rules
* Feedback on how the rules worked in actual gameplay

We'll post some specific questions in another thread.

We should have a prototype character sheet to post soon.

FYI, for you hardcore number crunchers that want to see the math on the morphs, check this spreadsheet out.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Yay! Time to get to work.

Yay! Time to get to work.

Edit: The file I get is the old one. Did I try to download too soon?

Edit 2: Yup. I just needed to wait. Got new files now.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
This appears to be just the

This appears to be just the Mechanics chapter.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
The new stuff is definitely

The new stuff is definitely there, but the description on DTrpg hasn't been updated yet.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Ah, there it is.

Ah, there it is.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
First thoughts:

First thoughts:

I really like the changes to languages it's now economical to buy a lot of them, which is great!

I like how you can save some CP until the game has started, I usually end up giving people a free respec early in a game but here's a rule for that.

CP numbers feel a lot more managable. 20 is a lot easier to think through than 1000!

It explicitly states not to get attached to a morph, so we can sunset that discussion from the last thread.

I forgot to bring this up previously, but I still think the reps are kind of unequal. I've never really seen F-rep used much, but that may just be my games.

I appreciate factions being less important to a character. I frequently had trouble finding a faction which made sense for many of my characters in the past.

Looks like 14 skills were cut, leaving 24, so that's nice.

Rep isn't insanely cheap anymore, which is good, but it looks like aptitudes are still 10x as expensive as skills, which I thought was too expensive previously. I'd want to actually play with the new system before I have a real opinion here, because there are fewer skills and aptitudes to spend points on.

Is the aptitude hard cap 30 now?

I miss Art being a skill into it's own. It generally made for interesting flavors for characters and was pretty useful in the novelty economy.

Provoke is an awesome skill to replace a whole mess of social skills with.

There's a lot of stuff to work through here.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
I see complimentary skills

I see complimentary skills are still a thing. This always struck me as a "rich-get-richer" mechanic; the better your skills are, the better your skills get. I'd love to see it go away entirely.

I still have a problem tying Psi skills to the same stat that Lucidity is based on. Metal stability correlates directly with how well you use async powers? This is in direct conflict with the lore.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
TheGrue wrote:I see

TheGrue wrote:
I see complimentary skills are still a thing. This always struck me as a "rich-get-richer" mechanic; the better your skills are, the better your skills get. I'd love to see it go away entirely.

I still have a problem tying Psi skills to the same stat that Lucidity is based on. Metal stability correlates directly with how well you use async powers? This is in direct conflict with the lore.


Follow-up: Since morph bonuses are now pools instead of aptitudes, why do skills still use aptitudes as a base? Especially since there still exist skills that can't be defaulted on.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

mellonbread mellonbread's picture
Thanks for getting rid of e

Thanks for getting rid of e-rep. As useless as f-rep might seem, e-rep was even worse. The rep changes in general - roll directly vs rep rather than rolling against networking and cross referencing rep with favor level to come up with a modifier to the roll - are quite welcome.

The shrinking of the skill list is a step in the right direction. I still want to see Hardware and Medicine either be moved to knowledge skills or have their Field status revoked. Renaming 'intimidate' to 'provoke' is a weird move, since my expectation is that its primary use in play will still be to intimidate people.

I actually like complementary skills, since they give a direct mechanical benefit to knowledge skills that otherwise might never be used. However if the complimentary skill breakpoints (and possibly several others) are going to be multiples of 10, I think the breakpoints for margin of success should also be multiples of 10 for the sake of consistency. Either that or do it the other way around and make everything a multiple of 11.

I know this is going to be controversial, but I think if Rusters can't survive on the Martian surface unaided anymore, they don't deserve to be their own morph. Instead there could just be a sidebar or something saying "on Mars, the splicers are red, and the rednecks call them rusters" or something to that effect. I support the absence of Hazers, who couldn't survive on the Titanian surface either, for this reason. I liked Suryas and Hulders but I can understand removing them, considering how unlikely it was that a character would ever start the game in one, and how their overall relevance to the setting was marginal. Perhaps some of them will appear in future splats, but they don't need to be kept around for character creation.

Did you hear the one about the guy who became a fence?

Spoiler: Highlight to view
They say he was a real posthuman
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
TheGrue wrote:Follow-up:

TheGrue wrote:
Follow-up: Since morph bonuses are now pools instead of aptitudes, why do skills still use aptitudes as a base? Especially since there still exist skills that can't be defaulted on.

Aptitudes represent natural ability, upon which skills are built. Morphs only provided aptitude modifiers in EP1 (and sometimes aptitude maximums).

Aptitudes also provide the basis for aptitude checks, which encompass character qualities not covered by skills.

Some skills can't be defaulted upon because realistically they require training. Ingrained aptitude might bolster that training, but it can't always work in place of it.

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
We're seeing a bunch of stuff

We're seeing a bunch of stuff now, such as traits and gear. This file might not cover them all in much detail, but we get to see what the current list is.

Morphs seem to list their the difficulty for resleeving into them.

Should infomorphs be considered exotic 3?

I don't see any rules for resleeving, so its hard to say what impact this will have.

We seem to have traits for aptitudes now, such as Empathy (+5 to SAV checks per level). Did morphs lose aptitudes or not? Actually, it seems to be possible to buy these as mental traits. Is this cheaper than raising aptitudes directly?

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
RobBoyle wrote:TheGrue wrote

RobBoyle wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
Follow-up: Since morph bonuses are now pools instead of aptitudes, why do skills still use aptitudes as a base? Especially since there still exist skills that can't be defaulted on.

Aptitudes represent natural ability, upon which skills are built. Morphs only provided aptitude modifiers in EP1 (and sometimes aptitude maximums).

Aptitudes also provide the basis for aptitude checks, which encompass character qualities not covered by skills.

Some skills can't be defaulted upon because realistically they require training. Ingrained aptitude might bolster that training, but it can't always work in place of it.


I'm not asking why aptitudes exist as a seperate mechanic from skills. I'm asking why we need attributes to define the starting point of a given skill, especially skills that can't even be attempted without training.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Alright, high level thoughts

Alright, high level thoughts - like the condensed skill list I have no complaints and will refute anyone on the subject of (Field) skills which need to be de-fielded. Exotic Skill is pretty great now that it's not just weapons - don't know what your skill is just throw it in Exotic. Very impressed with the starting morph and trait selection so far. This maybe should go in wishlist stuff but since I'm thinking about it now I do hope perhaps in the GM's section there will be some official conversion guidelines for people who don't want to wait years for you to reprint their favorite things?

In skills though, finding the use of the FATE names for a lot of skills a little... unusual. It's not really a complaint directly but it does feel unfamiliar to myself and shows a weird affinity for FATE (which, y'know, still has it's own conversion). You're also dooming me and many, many 1E players to the curse of never remembering what the skills are actually called for the foreseeable future.

I actually like handling wealth as a trait - I homebrewed a trait explicitly to model a character just having money as a background so I think this works well.

I'll probably mull over it some more, but I think the only really unclear thing which won't be resolved by later playtest works is the traits for various Aptitude tests, unless I missed some language in the Game Mechanics section it doesn't seem to specify which tests those are. Is it defaulting, is it Aptitude (i/e x3) tests or is it akin to a morph bonus and just +5 to all tests derived from that aptitude? Also at least one of those traits shares the name with something else (Insight and Insight) might want to run that through a thesaurus or something to avoid redundancy.

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog
http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Ian Argent Ian Argent's picture
First take on chargen

"Don’t get too attached to your morph, because you are likely to move to a new one at some point during gameplay." Consider your rep pinged :)

Onto chargen itself.

I swear I hadn't read the new rules before I brought up the Transhuman packages :)

Step 8: Flex, I assume the Flex points bought are permanent, but I would specify. Yes, I have seen similar errors of interpretation occur before. Yes, I know it's "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer." It still happens. Also see commentary on Ego+Morph flex below - is the total capped at 3, or only the ego valuer capped at 3?

Love the recommendations in Step 9: Rep

Sample Fields in Pilot do not match up with the fields listed in Movement Types: In particular, Movement Types lists Naval, Groundcraft, Aerospace Craft as Fields of Pilot used for maneuvering, whereas Pilot lists Aircraft and Spacecraft, and Watercraft and Submarine, separately. My personal preference is to use the Movement Types fields. (Also, minor issue: rephrase "not muscle-driven:" a bicycle is a muscle-driven ground craft and in low g a muscle-driven aircraft is both possible and practical. Both would still use Pilot, of course. Whereas Walkers, Rollers, and Snakes may be non-muscle-powered and use Athletics)

No Neo-Cetaceans on the starting morph table? Speciesist :) (I kid, I kid. I'm glad the entire morph list is not available for starting characters)

Because someone will ask, can you buy off Planned Obsolescence in chargen? There's a rules-lawyer reason to do this, in that you get an extra point of Flex for being in a Basic Pod vs a Worker Pod (though you pay an extra CP for the privilege), and if Morph and Ego Flex stacks over the 3 Flex limit (better state that clearly), a Basic Pod can have 5 Flex for the same cost and stats of a Worker Pod with 4 Flex if you can buy off PO in chargen. (If the 3 Flex limit is for Ego+Morph, this also takes care of the issue.) It's only an issue for Basic Pods, Rusters "may" have the trait.

For more in-depth thoughts, I'm going to see if I can talk my wife into running through chargen, but she usually likes to be paid for working on prelaunch gaming material :)

I love the Resources trait. To be honest, once I realized that "money" in an RPG is just an alternative XP mechanism used to "level up" gear, I kind of thought that a more abstract way of tracking character resources was more appropriate.

Answer for "Allow Additional Gear Buying at CharGen?" is "yes," incidentally. Several "character concepts" might want to be somewhat better equipped than their baseline professions.

More +rep for starting gear including the blueprint for it.

MagisterCrow MagisterCrow's picture
Not really rules, but...

Are Ultimates not going to be a PC faction anymore? They don't appear on the sidebar and I wanted to know if that was deliberate or an oversight. I know toward the end of 1e, we started seeing a lot more "potential X-Threat" talk and I remember they and Firewall had some issues, but I'm now kinda curious.

I like the selections so far. I'll need to do a stress test on some things, but things are slowly falling into place. I am highly curious what the 'infection rating' for asyncs is. My first character was an async, so they've always been a bit of a favorite of mine.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Hmm... It seems that the

Hmm... It seems that the aptitude cap for SOM because of small size is gone. Neotonic, Flexbot, etc. Its been an issue that bugged me in EP1.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
I also want to chime in favor

I also want to chime in favor of complementary skills, they're a good way for characters to build skill complexes around things, help provide a use for knowledge skills which otherwise might not be all that useful, and help alleviate the general swingyness of a d% system.

I'm also pretty sure Rusters don't need anything more than maybe a warm coat to survive on the Martian surface, they still have enhanced respiration and cold tolerance after all.

I was going to complain that the fundamentally useful skills Fray and Perceive were a little hard to get, but I see that that's actually been addressed by giving them [aptitude]x2 as a base. I'd note that in the description for the skill, because I found it kind of buried in the description for combining skills and nowhere else.

I'd also suggest making melee a third skill which uses double aptitude.

Looks like synths are now across the board harder to sleeve into, which seems like a good change to me.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Skills by Aptitude

There are 24 skills in EP 2E.

9 are linked to COG
5 are linked to REF
4 are linked to SAV
2 are linked to INT
2 are linked to SOM
1 is linked to WIL
1 is not linked to any aptitude

Some observations:

  • Only two skills cannot be defaulted on, and they are both active COG skills
  • There are only three Knowledge skills, and they are COG-based
  • Of the six Field skills (seven if you count Exotic), five are COG-based
  • Four are Social skills, and they are all SAV-based; three of them (Persuade, Provoke, Deceive) arguably all do the same thing
  • There are six Technical skills, and they are all COG-based

Clearly, not all aptitudes were created equally.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
SOM and WIL previously were

SOM and WIL previously were most useful for Wound and Stress checks, and IIRC exsurgent infection resistance (INT+SAV+WIL IIRC) so I don't know if that's a large change. COG always had the most skills, but the fewest ways to use the base aptitude.

Of course, pools mess with that a bit, but I'm not sure if skills alone work to determine the worth of various aptitudes, especially as I just realized we don't have the rules for the derived attributes either.

EDIT: Do the traits like Empathy, Fitness, and Good Instinct work on skill checks or just raw aptitude checks?

eaton eaton's picture
It's definitely simplified,

It's definitely simplified, and I like the package-oriented approach that was pioneered in Transhuman. Reducing the number of CP to a manageable 20 (from 1000) and bringing down the cost of packages/gear to more bite-sized increments also simplifies things.

Not sure how I feel about a couple of the renamed skills; the skill list in particular still feels like it is halfway: a bit stuck between the old-style EP1 granularity and the new EP2 style approach with umbrella skills. Wording needs some help — a few skills have been renamed to active verbs like "Perceive" while others are nouns like "Infosec." Either "Infosec" should become "Hack" or "Perceive" should stay "Perception"; inconsistency in that kind of terminology can make things feel way bumpier than they need to.

The new list of traits is much nicer, and all of them have refreshingly clear mechanical impact, not just flavor. I'll have to bang together a few sample characters and see how the process feels.

As TheGrue notes, the skills that are left now seem… super weighted towards COG. Is there still tweaking in the final skill list coming?

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
On Defaulting

What's the rationale behind Infosec and Programming being the only two skills that can't be defaulted?

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

mellonbread mellonbread's picture
One small change I'd

One small change I'd recommend - a practical formatting one that would really help character creation: the short list of skills on page 9 doesn't include what aptitudes they're linked to. Currently the only way to find that information is to go down to the expanded list. Adding that in would speed up chargen and make it easier.

Did you hear the one about the guy who became a fence?

Spoiler: Highlight to view
They say he was a real posthuman
Archon79 Archon79's picture
Ok, maybe this is the more appropriate thread

Why remove money? This takes out the crunch that supports the central human conflict, scarcity vs post scarcity economics, rep economy vs old economy, by flattening things so that old economy works the same way as rep anyway, that difference is gone, plus why do old economy people have to like me to sell memthings? An asshole billionaire doesn't need to win popularity contests surely?

Why remove the speed attribute? Having fury morphs being Matrix like blurs was transhuman at a visceral level, the idea of this body that was so far beyond human that they tore thru rooms of flats like they were sacks of meat was again, thematic of a central conflict, transhuman vs biocon, in a way the piles of beads mechanics simply aren't. Crunch should support themes, make them real..that has been harmed by these decisions

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Removing Speed is easily the

Removing Speed is easily the best change I've seen so far.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
TheGrue wrote:What's the

TheGrue wrote:
What's the rationale behind Infosec and Programming being the only two skills that can't be defaulted?

Well, I know the doc references Psi skills but I don't recall seeing them in the list, I assume they will be also no defaulting.

I think it's just to showcase that these require technical training even in the transhuman future no amount of inherent base talent will let you use them - you can teach a person in a sentence the basic way to use a gun and then basic motor skills take over. But you can't code a language without taking the time to learn it, presumably using hacking exploits and vulnerabilities is the same.

We might still argue this for some skills which are defaultable, but most of those are Field skills - which is still a weird area - and they're also active skills with physical components. If a vehicle or bit of tech has proper labels on it it could be fairly intuitive. And also for the sake of not wrapping like, multiple layers of qualifiers if you did have training in one Field skill you should be allowed maybe to default to other areas. Like, I'd argue if you have no medical training at all you probably shouldn't be able to default Medicine - but on the other hand if you had like First Aid or General Practice, you could probably take some stabs at another area of expertise based on shared knowledge points. Not as good a stab as your home field, but in the right ballpark. So that could lead to some weird "layers" of defaulting which might be splitting too many hairs for EP2.

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog
http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Archon79 wrote:Why remove the

Archon79 wrote:
Why remove the speed attribute? Having fury morphs being Matrix like blurs was transhuman at a visceral level, the idea of this body that was so far beyond human that they tore thru rooms of flats like they were sacks of meat was again, thematic of a central conflict, transhuman vs biocon, in a way the piles of beads mechanics simply aren't. Crunch should support themes, make them real..that has been harmed by these decisions

Speed carried some thematic weight in that regard, but it was also inconvenient to actually use as part of the game because if you didn't invest heavily in Speed, combat became a lengthy process of waiting for those who did to finish the dozens of rolls necessary to resolve all their attacks.

We also don't actually know how the combat rules work yet, so maybe spending Vigor on Complex Actions in combat is actually really, really powerful?

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

Mister Lamp Mister Lamp's picture
So, uhh, is 2nd Edition

So, uhh, is 2nd Edition playable now or are we still missing rules? I want to give Eclipse Phase a try with some friends.

MagisterCrow MagisterCrow's picture
Speed

Speed had the issue of being theoretically awesome and practically boring. If you hit the coveted speed 4, you would dominate in whatever field you were doing by sheer overwhelming number of dice tossed at a problem. Combat, hacking, didn't matter: you could keep at it longer than any other.

The problem was everyone else didn't necessarily have that and others would basically sit and do nothing. Removing it was necessary so everyone could enjoy the game. It's a matter of game practicality vs. realistic simulation. The realistic simulation might be more nuanced and visceral, but at some point, you need to give way to the fact that you are playing a game and the purpose isn't to have the most realistic simulation, but the most fun.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
We still need the combat

We still need the combat rules and the gear section. Judging from what we've seen thus far they appear to have changed enough to make the old rules counterproductive to use. Psi and mind hacks might be nice, but aren't necessary for play.

Speed was really fun to have, but not so fun to not have. I suspect that the new combat rules might allow people to make more attacks in a turn though, which would make each extra action more valuable.

Ian Argent Ian Argent's picture
Missing some rules

Mister Lamp wrote:
So, uhh, is 2nd Edition playable now or are we still missing rules? I want to give Eclipse Phase a try with some friends.

We don't have rules for resleeving yet, for hacking, and all the non-combat skill usages would seem to be pretty threadbare. For that matter, environmental effects on combat are missing. No cover, no concealment, etc. In fact, I'm not sure you could hold a firefight on a featureless plain or a melee in a steel cage right now.

Mister Lamp Mister Lamp's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:We

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
We still need the combat rules and the gear section. Judging from what we've seen thus far they appear to have changed enough to make the old rules counterproductive to use. Psi and mind hacks might be nice, but aren't necessary for play.

Speed was really fun to have, but not so fun to not have. I suspect that the new combat rules might allow people to make more attacks in a turn though, which would make each extra action more valuable.

Well dang, I was hoping to try playing in a one-off session before the kickstarter ended so I could maybe back it. Oh well.

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture
Speed, we hardly knew ye

Archon79 wrote:
Why remove money? This takes out the crunch that supports the central human conflict, scarcity vs post scarcity economics, rep economy vs old economy, by flattening things so that old economy works the same way as rep anyway, that difference is gone, plus why do old economy people have to like me to sell memthings? An asshole billionaire doesn't need to win popularity contests surely?

Economic systems are prime targets for simplification/abstraction in RPGs. Even EP1 makes some pretty broad generalisations, like the cost categories. I've listened to a few EP "actual plays" on youtube, and I've yet to hear anyone who implements rep economies even half-way decently. Most of them simply supplant rep for cred: a sample container "costs" 1 rep; "sell" a pistol for 3 rep.

I'm listening to Know Evil now, and they even poke fun at themselves for 'butchering the rep system'. So a loss of granularity may be regrettable, but the system clearly isn't being implemented in the intended spirit. Perhaps this new system will be the fix.

Archon79 wrote:
Why remove the speed attribute? Having fury morphs being Matrix like blurs was transhuman at a visceral level, the idea of this body that was so far beyond human that they tore thru rooms of flats like they were sacks of meat was again, thematic of a central conflict, transhuman vs biocon, in a way the piles of beads mechanics simply aren't. Crunch should support themes, make them real..that has been harmed by these decisions

I agree wholeheartedly Archon79, but alas, it would seem that you and I are in the minority on this subject.

LatwPIAT wrote:
Speed carried some thematic weight in that regard, but it was also inconvenient to actually use as part of the game because if you didn't invest heavily in Speed,

A dose of MRDR in EP1 is [Low]. The same "heavy investment" as a pistol.

LatwPIAT wrote:
combat became a lengthy process of waiting for those who did to finish the dozens of rolls necessary to resolve all their attacks.

I return to the Know Evil example. I'm two-thirds of the way through and there have been multiple combats with Speed 2 (and one so far with Speed 3, IIRC) participants. Those 2nd and 3rd Action Phases are whipped out so quickly they're almost treated as afterthoughts. "Oh right, you have Speed 2. Roll attack... she misses her fray. Roll damage... she's still standing, but barely. Alright, new round!"

jaunty Harrison jaunty Harrison's picture
I have to confess I'm

I have to confess I'm concerned to see that they've done away with the doubled cost for skills rated over 60. Sure the math was a nuisance, especially when you used life path or the pack system, but the diminishing returns of extreme specialization had a very positive effect on the gameplay at my table. It shall be a very different flow of gameplay when players can more easily get an 80 skill with +10 from specialization.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Not every playgroup is as

Not every playgroup is as well-oiled as the RPPR crew, nor does every group have the ability to edit out silences and pauses that would break the flow. Remember those guys are practised at recording games in a manner that is fun to listen to.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Dilf_Pickle wrote:LatwPIAT

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
LatwPIAT wrote:
Speed carried some thematic weight in that regard, but it was also inconvenient to actually use as part of the game because if you didn't invest heavily in Speed,

A dose of MRDR in EP1 is [Low]. The same "heavy investment" as a pistol.

The +1 from MRDR doesn't offset the problem much when other characters are running around with +3. MRDR is also a poor example because it has an onset time of 20 minutes, so it'll only give that +1 Speed bonus if you have time to prepare for the whatever. The character who gets Neurachem 2 and a Reflex Booster is going to have +3 actions in any combat situation. That's the heavy investment I'm talking about.

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
I return to the Know Evil example. I'm two-thirds of the way through and there have been multiple combats with Speed 2 (and one so far with Speed 3, IIRC) participants. Those 2nd and 3rd Action Phases are whipped out so quickly they're almost treated as afterthoughts. "Oh right, you have Speed 2. Roll attack... she misses her fray. Roll damage... she's still standing, but barely. Alright, new round!"

I said dozens of rolls for a reason. Each point of speed means turns of probably double attacks from whichever weapons the character in question uses. Each attack comprises an opposed roll , and on a hit is followed by a damage roll and may very well be followed by knockdown roll, possibly even a knockout roll. With speed 2, that's another 4-9 rolls. With Speed 4 it's 12-36. It creates a situation where characters who invest heavily in Speed do a lot of things while less combat-invested players are twiddling their thumbs.

That's before we get into extra Mental Actions and whatever horrors can be wrought by getting to do up to 8 more things on top of the shooting.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

Archon79 Archon79's picture
Speed

MagisterCrow wrote:
Speed had the issue of being theoretically awesome and practically boring. If you hit the coveted speed 4, you would dominate in whatever field you were doing by sheer overwhelming number of dice tossed at a problem. Combat, hacking, didn't matter: you could keep at it longer than any other.

The problem was everyone else didn't necessarily have that and others would basically sit and do nothing. Removing it was necessary so everyone could enjoy the game. It's a matter of game practicality vs. realistic simulation. The realistic simulation might be more nuanced and visceral, but at some point, you need to give way to the fact that you are playing a game and the purpose isn't to have the most realistic simulation, but the most fun.


And for me, being able to do that (tho not speed 4) was the fun part, being the devastating blur with the rail rifle was just plain cool, some people enjoy having the 'face' character or the decker, and dominating in those fields with bio and cyberware to suit, but for me it was the guy who bullet times it. Plus wired reflexes are iconic, nothing screams cyberpunk or post cyberpunk hader than wired reflexes of some kind and maybe hand razors. Whats next taking out boosted intellect and pheromones bevause they make people with them to dominant in those fields? Plus I like simulationist rpgs dammit, I don't like Fate, or Fudge, or Numenera, give me numbers and stats, give me crunch that shows me the fluff in action.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
The problem with speed wasn't

The problem with speed wasn't that it allowed combat characters to be good at their chosen field. The problem was that speed was so good and so easy to max, that there was never any reason not to max it. It was the opposite of a "trap" option; an option so good compared to the alternatives that not taking it was the trap.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Archon79 Archon79's picture
Specilism should matter.

TheGrue wrote:
The problem with speed wasn't that it allowed combat characters to be good at their chosen field. The problem was that speed was so good and so easy to max, that there was never any reason not to max it. It was the opposite of a "trap" option; an option so good compared to the alternatives that not taking it was the trap.

But then in the hacking parts of the game the entire party twiddles as the decker does his thing, or the social events and the Slyph doing his thing, I am fine with that, specialists should take centre stage at those times, replacIng an iconic ability of wired characters with a slightly larger pile of coloured beads..yea not a fan, it's up their with removing mages and clerics from a fantasy rpg.

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Archon79 wrote:And for me,

Archon79 wrote:
And for me, being able to do that (tho not speed 4) was the fun part, being the devastating blur with the rail rifle was just plain cool, some people enjoy having the 'face' character or the decker, and dominating in those fields with bio and cyberware to suit, but for me it was the guy who bullet times it.

A character built to completely dominate a social situation in Eclipse Phase 1e would do so by making the same number of rolls as Jenny Average, with a far higher chance of success.

A character built to kill things dead in combat would do so by making four times as many rolls as Jenny Average.

I don't like the design where everyone except the Faceman can zone out and play with their phones while Faceman plays a one-on-one game with the GM of convincing the NPC, but at least when it's Faceman's turn to do things, it's mercifully short. When Troopie-the-Navy-SEAL plays a one-on-one game with the GM of killing half a dozen Reapers with his bare hands, it's going to take forever.

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Archon79 Archon79's picture
Response

LatwPIAT wrote:
Archon79 wrote:
And for me, being able to do that (tho not speed 4) was the fun part, being the devastating blur with the rail rifle was just plain cool, some people enjoy having the 'face' character or the decker, and dominating in those fields with bio and cyberware to suit, but for me it was the guy who bullet times it.

A character built to completely dominate a social situation in Eclipse Phase 1e would do so by making the same number of rolls as Jenny Average, with a far higher chance of success.

A character built to kill things dead in combat would do so by making four times as many rolls as Jenny Average.

I don't like the design where everyone except the Faceman can zone out and play with their phones while Faceman plays a one-on-one game with the GM of convincing the NPC, but at least when it's Faceman's turn to do things, it's mercifully short. When Troopie-the-Navy-SEAL plays a one-on-one game with the GM of killing half a dozen Reapers with his bare hands, it's going to take forever.


No it doesn't it takes less roles, be because the targets don't get to respond :p, besides removing speed from a post cyberpunk game is like 'fixing' DnD by removing spellcasters, technically it makes things faster, practically it slows things down and damages the setting

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Archon79 wrote:TheGrue wrote

Archon79 wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
The problem with speed wasn't that it allowed combat characters to be good at their chosen field. The problem was that speed was so good and so easy to max, that there was never any reason not to max it. It was the opposite of a "trap" option; an option so good compared to the alternatives that not taking it was the trap.

But then in the hacking parts of the game the entire party twiddles as the decker does his thing, or the social events and the Slyph doing his thing, I am fine with that, specialists should take centre stage at those times, replacIng an iconic ability of wired characters with a slightly larger pile of coloured beads..yea not a fan, it's up their with removing mages and clerics from a fantasy rpg.


Since nothing in this post actually addresses any point that I made, why did you quote me?

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

SquireNed SquireNed's picture
My Thoughts, Selfishly Ignoring Things I Don't Have Time To Read

Alright, here's my notes:

• Pools work as I hoped they would. I was concerned that low-end morphs getting too much Flex could be a game-breaker, but the final setup seems to work well.
• Morph creation is simple, which puts me out of business for making an alternate morph creation system but is pretty cool from a design perspective.
• There are some quirks re in-universe expense and CP cost, as there were in 1e. Perhaps morph traits should be moved to a separate calculation phase right at the very end (this would give the basic pod a 0 CP cost along the lines of the other low-end entries (Pods ain't sposta be more expensive than the alternatives, right?), though this has alternate issues.
○ Sub-note: This makes custom morphs incredibly more valuable; making a custom morph that's identical but lacking a trait, then purchasing the trait separately, is a system exploit. A GM could say no, but if a GM is allowing custom morphs then it could slip by or be a source of player-GM contention.
• Morphs having discrete alienation test modifiers is cool and good, but runs into issues with morph traits and expense calculations (why wouldn't I buy this trait for my personal morph to get it cheaper?)

Creator of Street Rats, a CC-BY cyberpunk roleplaying game.

Archon79 Archon79's picture
Response

TheGrue wrote:
Archon79 wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
The problem with speed wasn't that it allowed combat characters to be good at their chosen field. The problem was that speed was so good and so easy to max, that there was never any reason not to max it. It was the opposite of a "trap" option; an option so good compared to the alternatives that not taking it was the trap.

But then in the hacking parts of the game the entire party twiddles as the decker does his thing, or the social events and the Slyph doing his thing, I am fine with that, specialists should take centre stage at those times, replacIng an iconic ability of wired characters with a slightly larger pile of coloured beads..yea not a fan, it's up their with removing mages and clerics from a fantasy rpg.

Since nothing in this post actually addresses any point that I made, why did you quote me?

Maybe I wasn't clear, I was trying to make the point that wired reflexes of some kind are thematic to a large degree, and while yes speed was a no brainer, it is a no brainer in the way taking a gun is, or in a fantasy rpg bringing spellcasters, neurachem and speed boosters are what at a basic level makes a combat guy, in the same way programs and a specialised muse make the hacker, or a huge rolodex makes the face character. Removing it removes a large part of the scifi feel, for me at least cybernetically enhanced super soldiers moving at the speed of thought makes the setting more than delta green in space, and turns it into Saomething greater, it's that central, that important, it's removal damages the setting in the same way and to the same extent as removing resleeving would.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Archon79 wrote:TheGrue wrote

Archon79 wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
Archon79 wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
The problem with speed wasn't that it allowed combat characters to be good at their chosen field. The problem was that speed was so good and so easy to max, that there was never any reason not to max it. It was the opposite of a "trap" option; an option so good compared to the alternatives that not taking it was the trap.

But then in the hacking parts of the game the entire party twiddles as the decker does his thing, or the social events and the Slyph doing his thing, I am fine with that, specialists should take centre stage at those times, replacIng an iconic ability of wired characters with a slightly larger pile of coloured beads..yea not a fan, it's up their with removing mages and clerics from a fantasy rpg.

Since nothing in this post actually addresses any point that I made, why did you quote me?

Maybe I wasn't clear, I was trying to make the point that wired reflexes of some kind are thematic to a large degree, and while yes speed was a no brainer, it is a no brainer in the way taking a gun is, or in a fantasy rpg bringing spellcasters, neurachem and speed boosters are what at a basic level makes a combat guy, in the same way programs and a specialised muse make the hacker, or a huge rolodex makes the face character. Removing it removes a large part of the scifi feel, for me at least cybernetically enhanced super soldiers moving at the speed of thought makes the setting more than delta green in space, and turns it into Saomething greater, it's that central, that important, it's removal damages the setting in the same way and to the same extent as removing resleeving would.


No, you were clear; I was just confused about whether you'd quoted the wrong person or were just Gish galloping. Seems it's the latter.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Archon79 Archon79's picture
TheGrue wrote:Archon79 wrote

TheGrue wrote:
Archon79 wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
Archon79 wrote:
TheGrue wrote:
The problem with speed wasn't that it allowed combat characters to be good at their chosen field. The problem was that speed was so good and so easy to max, that there was never any reason not to max it. It was the opposite of a "trap" option; an option so good compared to the alternatives that not taking it was the trap.

But then in the hacking parts of the game the entire party twiddles as the decker does his thing, or the social events and the Slyph doing his thing, I am fine with that, specialists should take centre stage at those times, replacIng an iconic ability of wired characters with a slightly larger pile of coloured beads..yea not a fan, it's up their with removing mages and clerics from a fantasy rpg.

Since nothing in this post actually addresses any point that I made, why did you quote me?

Maybe I wasn't clear, I was trying to make the point that wired reflexes of some kind are thematic to a large degree, and while yes speed was a no brainer, it is a no brainer in the way taking a gun is, or in a fantasy rpg bringing spellcasters, neurachem and speed boosters are what at a basic level makes a combat guy, in the same way programs and a specialised muse make the hacker, or a huge rolodex makes the face character. Removing it removes a large part of the scifi feel, for me at least cybernetically enhanced super soldiers moving at the speed of thought makes the setting more than delta green in space, and turns it into Saomething greater, it's that central, that important, it's removal damages the setting in the same way and to the same extent as removing resleeving would.


No, you were clear; I was just confused about whether you'd quoted the wrong person or were just Gish galloping. Seems it's the latter.

How is trying to make my point with reasons 'gish galloping'
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Have we already moved past

Have we already moved past the point in this discussion where we mention Vigor lets you basically lump all your "I'm a rad supersoldier" bonuses together and all your badass combat morphs get a lot of it? Because from a standpoint of system efficiency that's way "cooler" you get to pile all your being rad-ness into a single pool and pick how you want to apply it rather than clunking up something which already flows slowly with just people who have extra actions.

Also Neurachem is still a thing, it's mentioned under the Fury. Dollars to donuts it gives you Vigor to spend only on extra actions, anyone?

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Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Yeah, a Fury has 4 vigor

Yeah, a Fury has 4 vigor before neurachem (It's +1 vigor, for anything) (no longer stock) or similar is added. so it's pretty easy to stack up a lot. Given how easy a short recharge is to get (10 minutes of downtime is basically going to happen while waiting for the next fight to happen) it's easy to keep those numbers up for a while.

IME an extra point of speed or two is often enough end a fight, especially for a character with strong combat skills already, so I think that even with the limited pool it should be fairly generous, especially if you lean on Flex to handle dice stuff as much as possible.

Ultrafast murder machines are definitely still around, but they'll eventually tone down and won't want to bring 100% to easy combats, which means they don't have the biggest problem old speed had-it largely made the rest of the party unimportant once initiative is rolled. At least in this case, if someone wants to take over combats like that, they will eventually have to chill, and let other people get a shot off.

Of course, given that some damage profiles (The Rail AR now has 2d10+2 DV, and no AP listed, and the microwave agonizer now lists "armor piercing" instead of AP) seem to have changed a significant amount, I really want to see the combat rules now. I suspect that damage is down across the board without specialized ammunition, but I'm making a ton of assumptions here.

Archon79 Archon79's picture
Pool systems

The thing I liked about EP gear was it did *whatever* as stated in the description and it always worked that way, every pool systemI have tried to play leads to endless time eating arguments about edge cases, hence my dislike for abstracting things to that level, have had one tound of combat last two hours because of that, in one memorable occasion

Ghostwalker Ghostwalker's picture
I like the new pools, the CP

I like the new pools, the CP numbers and Skill list.

I didn't like the absense of aptitude bonus from Morphs. So, a flat human is as good as a Fury or a Remade? That's weird.

I mean, the problem is concept vs mechanics. If you have a mechanic that fail to emulate that concept, so, something is wrong.

In Eclipse Phase 1st Edition, we know that Transhumans are better than normal humans. A Heavy modified Remade is better than a f****** flat in probably many things. Ye, I know that Morphs now have the Pool thing atached to them, but that is not enough to mach de concept. Ok, the 1st Edition Speed rules maybe could be better, but they emulate the concept. So, if someone has spent a f****** milion credits to build a f****** killing machine that is almost post-human, I really hope that mechanics emulate this.

I don't think it's supose to be balanced. I mean, it's like buying a Ferrari and get the same performance of a Beetle.

PS: sorry for the bad english

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture
Hours of terror punctuated by moments of boredom

LatwPIAT wrote:
A character built to completely dominate a social situation in Eclipse Phase 1e would do so by making the same number of rolls as Jenny Average, with a far higher chance of success.

[...]

I don't like the design where everyone except the Faceman can zone out and play with their phones while Faceman plays a one-on-one game with the GM of convincing the NPC, but at least when it's Faceman's turn to do things, it's mercifully short.

Unless you, you know, role play.

Theliel Theliel's picture
Packages, rp

Dude, with the social skills is often better to not have the tank open thier mouth.

But it still doesn't address the core issue, you can pc skill npc interactions to makeup for low social stats and skills, you can't pc skill your way out of making that fray at half.

Extra actions always break the action economy.

As for packages, it was unclear that a total skill score over 80 gives points to be spent on everything rather than total skill bonus after 80.
The default skill values desperately need to be in the quick chart since you have to know what they are to find out how many points you get to redistribute.

One of your core save or suck/die skills being trained only (infosec) is a huge trap.

Some quick notes: gene freak had suggested profession as surgeon, doesn't actually have the skill to do surgery.

Hacker has suggested profession sysop, but doesn't get any interface to operate said system.

The sheer number of thinly sliced active skills is a pain. Being a social monster or gun bunny is fairly easy, being able to fix a small station is damn near impossible because of all the different hardware skilks you'd need.

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