Off Hand Attack clarification

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
Off Hand Attack clarification

I have a player who wants to fight Florentine... mono-filament blade in one hand, vibroblade in his off hand.

Do I just use the multiple opponent rules?
-20 for the mono-filament blade (-20 for the multiple target mod)
-40 for the vibroblade (-20 for the off hand + -20 for the multiple target mod)

Or is there some other rule I'm missing?

At this rate, it makes no sense for anyone that's not Ambidextrous to ever do Florentine... seems easier to just hit twice with your primary hand:
-20 for the mono-filament blade (-20 for the multiple target mod)
-20 for the mono-filament blade (-20 for the multiple target mod)

Can I get some clarification, or pointed at the off-hand rule if it exists?

William

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
For god knows why, multiple

For god knows why, multiple melee weapons do not allow multiple attacks. They simply add 1d10 damage, regardless of weapon. Or at least, that's how I recalled the rules.

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
The rules... (EP Core p220)

Melee combat

A character taking a Complex Action to engage in a melee attack may choose to attack two or more opponents with the same action. Each opponent must be within one meter of another attacked opponent. These attacks must be declared before the dice are rolled for the first attack. Each attack suffers a cumulative -20 modifier for each extra target. So if a character declares they are going to attack three characters with the same action, they suffer a cumulative -60 on each attack.

Combat modifiers
General Modifier
Character using off-hand -20

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
That's all I can find on

That's all I can find on multiple melee attacks, and they don't make sense.

The rule says " Each attack suffers a cumulative -20 modifier for each extra target."

Then says "So if a character declares they are going to attack three characters with the same action, they suffer a cumulative -60 on each attack."

First off cumulative means to add... and I doubt its -60/-120/-180, etc
Second... it says -20 for each EXTRA target...

So wouldn't that be:
1 attack: +0
2 attacks: -20/-20
3 attacks: -40/-40/-40
4 attacks: -60/-60/-60/-60

For someone using two weapons... would they take a -20/-20? Or a +0 (primary hand) / -20 (off hand)?

If not official, can I at least see how people handle this in their own games?

Thanks!

Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Following the rules, it seems

Following the rules, it seems that weilding two weapons and attacking two targets you'd get -20 for both targets and do a +1d10 due to your two weapons. The off-hand penalty only seem to apply if you're using only one weapon and have it the wrong hand for some reason.

I must admit I've always found the multiple weapon rules to be a bit weird (as in not really working) for both melee and ranged combat and thus always suggest for my players that they stick to only one weapon.

Lorsa is a Forum moderator

Red text is for moderator stuff

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
Lorsa wrote:Following the

Lorsa wrote:
Following the rules, it seems that weilding two weapons and attacking two targets you'd get -20 for both targets and do a +1d10 due to your two weapons. The off-hand penalty only seem to apply if you're using only one weapon and have it the wrong hand for some reason.
.

I've looked, but I can't find the +1d10 due to two weapons... where did you find that rule?

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
Nevermind, found it :)

Extra melee weapons

The use of two or more melee weapons is treated as a single attack, rather than multiple. Each additional weapon applies +1d10 damage to the attack (up to a maximum +3d10). Off-hand weapon modifiers are ignored. If the character attacks multiple targets with the same Complex Action (see Multiple Targets, p. 202), these bonuses does not apply. The attacker must, of course, be capable of actually wielding the additional weapons. A splicer with only two hands cannot wield a knife and a two-handed sword, for example. Likewise, the gamemaster may ignore this damage bonus for extra weapons that are too dissimilar to use together effectively (like a whip and a pool cue). Note that extra limbs do not count as extra weapons in unarmed combat, nor do weapons that come as a pair (such as shock gloves).
A character using more than one melee weapon receives a bonus for defending against melee attacks equal to +10 per extra weapon (maximum +30).

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
I really think that needs to

I really think that needs to be re-worked. Would it really be broken to make them work like ranged weapons do? And multiple limbs really should help me punch better.

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture
Yeah... I admittedly like the

Yeah... I admittedly like the ranged extra attacks better:

Extra ranged weapons

Similarly, an attacker can wield a pistol in each hand for ranged combat, or larger weapons if they have more limbs (an eight-limbed octomorph, for example, could conceivably hold four assault rifles). These weapons may all be fired at once towards the same target. In this case, each weapon is handled as a separate attack, with each off-hand weapon suffering a cumulative off-hand weapon modifier (no modifier for the first attack, -20 for the second, -40 for the third, and -60 for the fourth), offset by the Ambidextrous trait (p. 145) as usual.

So I think I'll house rule the same for Melee weapons

Googleshng Googleshng's picture
The existing rule is honestly

The existing rule is honestly a pretty good approximation of how things really work. When you hit someone with a sword or a club or whatever, you really have to throw all your weight into it, then take a moment to recover. So you can, conceivably, swing both at the same time and maybe score a nastier hit (although even that isn't too likely), but the notion of alternating blows from each hand like a lot of games work it just plain doesn't fly. If it did, you'd see lumberjacks with axes in each hand hacking up trees twice as fast.

The real main advantage to fighting with two weapons is using one to attack and the other to block, with the ability to switch it up at any time. It's a little easier to defend yourself, since you can turn away oncoming blows using weapons in two different ready positions, and it's much easier to make yourself an opening by forcing your opponent to worry about the other hand. So tada, +10% on defense, +1d10 on damage.

You can also hit people on either side of you, but really they have to be positioned just right and not expecting it, because you can't really throw your weight behind it properly for either of them. Tada, -20%.

thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Obvious Rule Patch

Another reason that akimbo melee weapons stack a single roll instead of attacking twice is because of the armor piercing problem. Namely, most melee weapons have terrible AP, so they need to add dice to a single attack to have any chance of getting past even mediocre armor. Keeping it as one roll also makes combat flow way way faster.

"Still and transfixed, the el/
ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Well, the main issue I'd like

Well, the main issue I'd like to see addressed is how what weapon is in the off-hand doesn't matter (vibroblade? Stun baton? monofilament sword? All +1d10 damage and no bonus effects), and how additional arms don't help unarmed combat (You're saying I can't hold him down with two arms while I pummel the shit out of him with the other two? Or do a flurry of punches? Or block with two, attack with the other two?)

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Sorry that I resleeve this

Sorry that I resleeve this thread but did EP writers/creators ever commented or fix why extra limbs (especially with Pneumatic Libms) does not count as extra 1d10 in unarmed combat?

That is really "wierd" from any logic perspective. If I have 2 knifes in two hands I can attack with both, if I have 4 arms I can attack with 4 fists/gloves etc.

Also if I buy cyberclaws for every on my 4 extra limbs- how that does not count as extra weapons for unarmed if mounted blade does for blades?

I just totally not understand logic behind it. It doesn't make any sense. Two fists= two objects that can attack. Two kinfes= two objects that can attack.

Because with current rule there is only one way to fully use unarmed: pistol in one hand and just punch with cyberclaws with your off hand when enemies come close.

Now to blades: how does Pneumatic Limbs NOT increase damage with blades or clubs? If a limb can generate 1,500 pounds of force then anything in that hand will be supported by the power of limb when it hits. Club held by child and by power lifter won't deal the same damage because of not only weight but also a generated speed and force, which is based also on muscles strengh. Pneumatic Limb would beat that with ez. I would even say with PL you could break blades :P.

Could any EP writer/creator comment on it?

PS. Also how does dual melee work if I have sword in main hand and wasp knife in off-hand. Does wasp knife special attack still counts?

Because so far melee dual wielding system is really bad designed- you can just basicelly put 3x shives/sharped rocks in 3 extra limbs and as long as you have Plasma Sword in main hand you have extra 3d10 damage and you one-shot everything....never using other 3 limbs and their melee weapons... wtf?