Cyberlimb Plus vs Extra Limb (robotic) - wtf?

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
Cyberlimb Plus vs Extra Limb (robotic) - wtf?

Please kindly enlight me how does it makes sense:

Cyberlimb Plus can be attached to both bio and synth morphs. They add +5 to SOM but they can't be masked...

Extra limbs adds you extra fully robotic limb to your synth morph- which can also add Pneumatic Limbs + Telescopic Limbs to it.

First question:

1. How the hell Cyber Limb plus can't be masked? Even Fenrir can be masked, Reaper can be masked, Heavy Combat Armor synth can be masked etc. How the hell two simple cybrelimbs plus can't be masked??

2. Why is Cyberlimb plus adds +5 SOM while fully Robotic extra arm does not? If I had to guess (I am not engineer) the fully robotic arm will at least be same strong/flexible as Cyberlimb Plus or both would use same mechanics, not to mention robotic arm can get Pneumatic Limbs so it can whistand a lot more of force/momentum in theory since you can't add PL to cyber limb plus as biomorph because PL are not available to bio. But you can add them to Cyberlimb as Synth because they are available to synth. Which is also a rule that doesn't make sense I think...

I don't get it. As it is right now it is much more beneficial for Synthmorph to get Cyberlimbs plus (unless you are octo morph) to get +5 SOM, can add Pneumatic Limbs/Telescopic Limbs (rules don't say that Cyberlimb can't get PL and TL, only that biomorph can't) on top of getting extra Limbs.

Extra Limb (robotic) which gives you...well, nothing.

I don't see any logic behind it- anyone?

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
2. If you want augmentation

2. If you want augmentation that is equivalent to extra limb look at the Cyberlimb aug. For a biomorph it is a prosthesis and can be masked. Cyberlimb Plus on the other hand is more extensive and more powerful augmentation. Cyberlimb turbo
1. Think Doomfist from Overwatch. Nathan Spencer from Bionic Commando (3dversion) It can be camouflaged, it cannot be made to resemble natural limb (it's what masking mean in EP, masked synth is an android). Unless you want to look like Tank Zombie from L4D.
When you attach it to something big like Bruiser morph I guess it could be masked, but then it could be argued that natural morph's limb is as strong as the replacement so SOM bonus doesn't apply.

Extra limb is equivalent to Cyberlimb Aug.

Edit:

RAW there is nothing stopping you from combining both types of Cyberlimb with TLs and PLs.

IMO as a GM I would add extra cost to masking it, as it would somehow have to reform the markafter it suddenly changed its shape to jump, punch etc.

It is an issue of slightly overlapping augmentations. But if you want to see real offender look at high-g augmentation from Gatecrashing and Muscle Augmentation. It would be pretty logical that the former includes the latter, but not only they do stack, also the former is cheaper than the latter.

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:2. If

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
2. If you want augmentation that is equivalent to extra limb look at the Cyberlimb aug. For a biomorph it is a prosthesis and can be masked. Cyberlimb Plus on the other hand is more extensive and more powerful augmentation. Cyberlimb turbo
1. Think Doomfist from Overwatch. Nathan Spencer from Bionic Commando (3dversion) It can be camouflaged, it cannot be made to resemble natural limb (it's what masking mean in EP, masked synth is an android). Unless you want to look like Tank Zombie from L4D.
When you attach it to something big like Bruiser morph I guess it could be masked, but then it could be argued that natural morph's limb is as strong as the replacement so SOM bonus doesn't apply.

Extra limb is equivalent to Cyberlimb Aug.

Edit:

RAW there is nothing stopping you from combining both types of Cyberlimb with TLs and PLs.

IMO as a GM I would add extra cost to masking it, as it would somehow have to reform the markafter it suddenly changed its shape to jump, punch etc.

It is an issue of slightly overlapping augmentations. But if you want to see real offender look at high-g augmentation from Gatecrashing and Muscle Augmentation. It would be pretty logical that the former includes the latter, but not only they do stack, also the former is cheaper than the latter.

Yup, not only that - Muscle Augmentation as per core can be mimic by cybernetics and apply to Synthmorphs/Bots while High-G-Augumentation can't. Also wierd. Price is even more wierder, yes.

There is so many things in EP that are just illogical and totally exclude each other when you think about it.... EP is I think the only system I played so far which you have to houserule from start for not having this constant feeling "omg...this is just stupid...".

There is no rules saying you can't Synthmask Fenrir or Reaper. Therefore- whats the problem of masking cyberlimb plus.

Whats more- there is nothing in book saying about the bigger size of Cyberlimb plus, only that its more "extravagant", which can mean ANYTHING (like it's golden, chrome, with runes, whatever). So even your (logical) interpretation of cyberlimb plus is just an interpretation because corebook doesn't provide enough information.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I think that a number of

I think that a number of augments is "use your best judgement" sort of things. Take a moment to think of what a synthetic mask Fenrir would look like. Is it going to be able to pass as human, or will it look like a TITAN mad science project?

Cyberlimbs are just that, extra limbs. They make sense for exotic synthmorphs such as the Arachnoid, Takko (synth octopus), or normal morphs that have extra pair of limbs. Cyberlimb plus are cyberlimbs with a lot of extra muscle (for SOM bonuses). Those extra muscles would take up extra bulk and thus not easily hidden (at least that is how I think it works).

That said, SOM hasn't been the best attribute for strength. Small morphs are limited to 25 SOM max. Even when they Jam big robots. Or when flexbots combine. Or even use skills that are less raw strength and more finesse. If you hadn't noticed, I have my own complaints with SOM.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
DivineWrath wrote:I think

DivineWrath wrote:
I think that a number of augments is "use your best judgement" sort of things. Take a moment to think of what a synthetic mask Fenrir would look like. Is it going to be able to pass as human, or will it look like a TITAN mad science project?

Cyberlimbs are just that, extra limbs. They make sense for exotic synthmorphs such as the Arachnoid, Takko (synth octopus), or normal morphs that have extra pair of limbs. Cyberlimb plus are cyberlimbs with a lot of extra muscle (for SOM bonuses). Those extra muscles would take up extra bulk and thus not easily hidden (at least that is how I think it works).

That said, SOM hasn't been the best attribute for strength. Small morphs are limited to 25 SOM max. Even when they Jam big robots. Or when flexbots combine. Or even use skills that are less raw strength and more finesse. If you hadn't noticed, I have my own complaints with SOM.

Of course I try to just use logic, but I am just complaining because so many things in EP just do not add up. Example: why 4 extra limbs with 4x Cyberclaws does not count and extra weapons and add 1d10 damage, while holding a sword with 3x shives made of metal scrap does add 1d10 damage to your main weapon (sword) attack? This is a total nonsense. There are so many more cases like this in EP that my head is hurting for trying to logicly houserule that all.... Because some of those rules (or lack of) are just... well, stupid, lets not avoid this word.

As for those cyber limbs plus- if you can cover a whole humanoid Synth with Mask (lets say average 1m 80cm body) with Mask- whats the problem covering one limb? Even little more bulky. If you can cover whole Synthmorph with Heavy Combat Armor on it which makes you bulky- why you can't mask one bulky limb. It is just totally illogical.

As for SOM, for me its strange that not more Synths have SOM 40. Even Guard Deluxe or Steel has only SOM of 30...

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Yeah, you are totally right

Yeah, you are totally right about the clunkiness of the rules and mechanical oversights. It is at the same time irritating and liberating. As a GM it is assumed that you will make the judgement calls and common sense houserules. There are systems that aim to make a rule for everything in the game. The worst ones actually come close to it. It is even worse when most of this mechanics are good and clever. It makes the mistake, errors so much more aggravating. And lures out the rules lawyers out of the woods.

Eclipse Phase is not like that. The basic mechanics are functional (except for jamming), so it makes for a decent carrier for the setting. But overall the game mechanics are messy. So much so ,that you either have to stop fussing about them and play by the RAI or drop the game.

I would like them to be more elegant and sophisticated, but they are not and that's it :-/

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