Confused about Synth armor wearing

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
Confused about Synth armor wearing

Hi,

So if my shell has 8/8 armor and I buy Heavy Combat Armor 16/16 I have now 24/24 armor. Now I understand from corebook that I can wear on top of that a Body Armor (Heavy) 13/13 (which is logical of course) and have now 37/37 without layer penalty, correct? Following by quote from Corebook, page 194, "Layered Armor":

"Note Also that the armor inherent to a synthethic morph or bot's frame does not constitute a layer of armor (i.e. you may wear armor over the synthethic shell without penalty)".

So I guess I understand that correct.

However, how does that apply to everyones favourite Reaper? I mean- logically you can design/buy/order a Body Armor for Reaper (piece of cake with all that technology) but that would look little strange, no? :)

Also what about Shape Adjusting synths that want to wear Body Armor? Didn't see any part in corebook that said that Shape Adjusting prevents from wearing Body Armor.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Shape Adjusting doesn't

Shape Adjusting doesn't prevent you from wearing body armor, but it could interfere with shape adjusting things you can do.

There's two rules for max armor, and it's not clear which is the one to use. The EP core rules state that you can't have more armor than you have DUR (page 194, layered armor), but Transhuman states that the max is 32 (page 110, picking armor).

Honestly, if your Reaper isn't covered in tacticool MOLLE gear you're wasting your credits.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
Shape Adjusting doesn't prevent you from wearing body armor, but it could interfere with shape adjusting things you can do.

There's two rules for max armor, and it's not clear which is the one to use. The EP core rules state that you can't have more armor than you have DUR (page 194, layered armor), but Transhuman states that the max is 32 (page 110, picking armor).

Honestly, if your Reaper isn't covered in tacticool MOLLE gear you're wasting your credits.

Thank you. GM prefers to stick to Core so max Durability.

What is MOOLLE?

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
It's short for Modular

It's short for Modular Lightweight Load-carrying Equipment. It's basically what a lot of "tactical" stuff is based off of.

Sometimes it gets silly though, like this MOLLE cheese holster

kindalas kindalas's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
Shape Adjusting doesn't prevent you from wearing body armor, but it could interfere with shape adjusting things you can do.

There's two rules for max armor, and it's not clear which is the one to use. The EP core rules state that you can't have more armor than you have DUR (page 194, layered armor), but Transhuman states that the max is 32 (page 110, picking armor).

Honestly, if your Reaper isn't covered in tacticool MOLLE gear you're wasting your credits.

The 32 number in Transhuman was an error that was missed. It should be DUR.

I think that the Synth Armor counts as an armor layer so if you put combat armor ontop of it then you get the -20 modifier to all actions.

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
According to Core book it

According to Core book it would be -10

Corebook, page 194, "Layered Armor":

"Note Also that the armor inherent to a synthethic morph or bot's frame does not constitute a layer of armor (i.e. you may wear armor over the synthethic shell without penalty)".

So first armor you wear over synthethic shell is 0. The second one would be -10.

kindalas kindalas's picture
Benny89 wrote:According to

Benny89 wrote:
According to Core book it would be -10

Corebook, page 194, "Layered Armor":

"Note Also that the armor inherent to a synthethic morph or bot's frame does not constitute a layer of armor (i.e. you may wear armor over the synthethic shell without penalty)".

So first armor you wear over synthethic shell is 0. The second one would be -10.

I don't know where I got the -20 from, thanks for looking it up.

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
So...we started to play and

So...we started to play and bump into pretty big balance problem with my character. So my Character (Guard Deluxe) has 12/12 armor. I added to it Synth Heavy Combat Armor 16/16 which makes my shell alone having 28/28 armor and my character (since he is suppose to look like bio bodyguard) wears Body Armor (Heavy) 13/13 over his Masked shell to look like professional soldier/bodyguard. Which ends up with 41/41 Armor and I am unkillable so far...

We don't want to make any homerules for now as it is our first time playing so we want to keep it vanilla but that is pretty extreme to have that much armor that easy in EP.

Anyone else think that this is a little bit of problem?

So now I have

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
I always wanted to roleplay a Brick...

Remember that Called Shots to Ignore Armour are always available, and Armour can be stripped away by nanoswarms and chemicals.
Armour also does nothing for your vunerability to hacking, being crushed with industrial equipment, glued to the floor or thrown into the void.

And, you know, you're running around everywhere in SWAT gear. That should probably be causing some issues in itself - at the very least, everyone should know to bring anti-armor weapons when they're coming after you.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Page 194 of Core has rules

Page 194 of Core has rules limiting layered armor. In particular, you're limited to the durability (40 for the Guard), and you will take a -20 penalty if you're layering multiple armors.

This doesn't actually apply to your case, since the inherent 12/12 doesn't count as a layer, and the synth heavy combat armor is considered an armor modification. What does prevent this is the description on page 310 of Core that says the heavy combat armor enhancement is not compatible with worn armor.

For the way you've described it, I'd probably drop the heavy combat armor, and rely on the worn armor, since you're trying to pass as a biomorph. Mechanically, you'd be better off with the synth heavy armor, and not wearing armor, but it's unclear if that armor is supposed to be concealable.

Your GM may simply let you use both, and just ignore the effects of the lesser (the worn armor). In that case, you have the 28/28, but look like you're wearing the same armor as the other security guards.

Note that it is pretty easy to abuse the armor system with all the armor modifications. This doesn't really break the system, since at that point, your opponents just use called shots to bypass your armor. It does mean that guy with a skill of 80 only damages you half as often. Less skilled opponents will have to take extra actions to aim to hurt you.

There was a printing of the rule in Transhuman, which I preferred, where the limit was set to 32, regardless of durability. Apparently, this was an error, though, and the limit was intended to still be the morph's durability. Of course, a static limit doesn't make a whole lot of sense for small morphs (you can't make that insect size bot bulletproof) or large morphs (the APC should be bulletproof), so durability works better in those cases.

Edit: Note that the automatic rifle railgun with AP ammo will do 5d10+6 at AP -14 with full auto, so this will still average 6 damage even if you do have 41 armor. If they're using called shots, and penetrate half the time, the automatic rifle with biter ammo is the better choice, doing 6d10+6 (39 average). With your adjusted armor of 28, both attacks are pretty similar, doing around 19 points of damage after armor (halving the called shot version to account for non-penetrating hits).

Benny89 Benny89's picture
ubik2 wrote:Page 194 of Core

ubik2 wrote:
Page 194 of Core has rules limiting layered armor. In particular, you're limited to the durability (40 for the Guard), and you will take a -20 penalty if you're layering multiple armors.

This doesn't actually apply to your case, since the inherent 12/12 doesn't count as a layer, and the synth heavy combat armor is considered an armor modification. What does prevent this is the description on page 310 of Core that says the heavy combat armor enhancement is not compatible with worn armor.

For the way you've described it, I'd probably drop the heavy combat armor, and rely on the worn armor, since you're trying to pass as a biomorph. Mechanically, you'd be better off with the synth heavy armor, and not wearing armor, but it's unclear if that armor is supposed to be concealable.

Your GM may simply let you use both, and just ignore the effects of the lesser (the worn armor). In that case, you have the 28/28, but look like you're wearing the same armor as the other security guards.

Note that it is pretty easy to abuse the armor system with all the armor modifications. This doesn't really break the system, since at that point, your opponents just use called shots to bypass your armor. It does mean that guy with a skill of 80 only damages you half as often. Less skilled opponents will have to take extra actions to aim to hurt you.

There was a printing of the rule in Transhuman, which I preferred, where the limit was set to 32, regardless of durability. Apparently, this was an error, though, and the limit was intended to still be the morph's durability. Of course, a static limit doesn't make a whole lot of sense for small morphs (you can't make that insect size bot bulletproof) or large morphs (the APC should be bulletproof), so durability works better in those cases.

Edit: Note that the automatic rifle railgun with AP ammo will do 5d10+6 at AP -14 with full auto, so this will still average 6 damage even if you do have 41 armor. If they're using called shots, and penetrate half the time, the automatic rifle with biter ammo is the better choice, doing 6d10+6 (39 average). With your adjusted armor of 28, both attacks are pretty similar, doing around 19 points of damage after armor (halving the called shot version to account for non-penetrating hits).

But that doesn't make sense... There are no rules saying that Synth heavy combat armor makes you unable to use Synthetic Mask. Therefore a Synth with Heavy combat armor + Mask probably looks like bulky/big muscled guy. With Light Combat Armor upgrade he just looks like normal biomorph since his armor (which is his chasis)- is under Mask. And since Sythethic combat armor is his CHASIS (basicelly it's the morph) - that doesn't make any sense that he can't wear over that a Heavy Body Armor and do not stack. If any big biomorph can wear it then there is no problem with Synth even with armored chasis to wear it over his body, because since his body is humanoid - he can wear cloths and armors.

Also it wouldn't make sense that they don't stack. If he has another layer of armor over his heavy combat armor- it is logical one does not in any physical way negate the other one- if bullet hits one layer- has to go through another layer below it and so on.

I understand what rules you try to implement, but that would make no sense at all to not being able to wear and stack Body Armor over a humanoid synthethic shell with combat armor which is basicelly...well.. a morph chasis so it is just like his "skin"- it would be just...well... absolutely stupid if they wouldn't stack. And especially with light combat armor which has no "visible bulk" over synthmorph default shell looks, so here heavy body armor is even more logical to wear over it. Especially by combat morph that tries to pass as bio-soldier. It is also logical any character with brain would upgrade his chasis armor first and then wear on top of it standard body armor. Otherwise- it just doesn't make sense at all. That rule would have no logical sense behind it.

EP is so far a very realistic system and that would just do not fit into the system in my opinion.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Being able to put on a

Being able to put on a synthetic mask doesn't actually imply that you're human shaped, it just means that you can drape faux-meat over the synth. A Reaper, Flexbot, or even Fenrir can put on a synth mask, but those don't look remotely human.

Quote:
Also it wouldn't make sense that they don't stack.

RPG rules don't need to make sense. All of them are a massive abstraction of reality. Narratively it's probably a volume issue, and the fact that wearing so much armor means that adding a little more doesn't help much, sort of like putting a kevlar vest on the front glacis of a tank.

Generally RPGs have some kind of built in negative loop for armor values to keep the numbers within an acceptable range, and that's almost certainly the real reason.

Quote:
EP is so far a very realistic system and that would just do not fit into the system in my opinion.

It's not really that realistic. Pheonix Command is realistic, EP isn't really. (And I prefer it that way) When the rules are this unambiguous I don't think opinion really matters outside of house rules; but I don't think we're discussing that right now.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
Being able to put on a synthetic mask doesn't actually imply that you're human shaped, it just means that you can drape faux-meat over the synth. A Reaper, Flexbot, or even Fenrir can put on a synth mask, but those don't look remotely human.

It's not about mask making you human shaped, but if you wear it on Synth that is human shaped already (Guard, Steel etc.) than you look like human (or humanish, considering how various biomorphs look like) biomorph. It is even said in Corebook that only best equipment can scan if you are synth and that is with -30 value.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Question about Battlesuit:

Question about Battlesuit:

Quoting from EP corebook, page 344:

"There suits have an Armor Value of 21/21. Occupants may only wear armor with Armor Rating (Energy or Kinetic) of 4 or less: this worn armor is cumulative without layer-penalties"...

Soooo.... "this worn armor is cumulative without layer-penalties" - so if I have lets say 10/10 armor on me when I wear battlesuit- that does mean that:

1. Only 4 is cumulative OR I will suffer layer penalty if I add whole armor value? So 21/21 + 4/4 without layer penalty but 21/21 + 10/10 would be with layer penalty?
2. Only 4 is added no matter how much armor you have on you when you wear battlesuit?

Because "4 or less: this worn armor is cumulative without layer-penalties" is very unlcear in that... for me.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
You can't get in a battlesuit

You can't get in a battlesuit while wearing more than 4/4 armor, but 4/4 armor doesn't inflict a layer penalty in the battlesuit.

Benny89 Benny89's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:You

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
You can't get in a battlesuit while wearing more than 4/4 armor, but 4/4 armor doesn't inflict a layer penalty in the battlesuit.

There is nothing written about "not able to get in", only that 4/4 armor will add without penalty.

So If I am Steel synthmorph with built-in armor 8/8- I can get inside battlesuit (because why not? You are human sized and shape) and then only 4/4 out of 8/8 will be added to battlesuit armor values without layer penalty or all 8/8 will be added but with layer penalty?

That is why I am asking since there is nothing against Synthmorph getting inside Battlesuit and they have even 12/12 buil-in armor (Guard Deluxe).

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Interpretations may differ.

Benny89 wrote:
There is nothing written about "not able to get in", only that 4/4 armour will add without penalty.

Yes there is - "These suits have an Armor Value of 21/21. Occupants may only wear armor with an Armor rating (Energy or Kinetic) of 4 or less; this worn armor is cumulative without layering penalties".
These are two statements. The first states the limitation that only armour with ratings of 4/4 or less may be worn when piloting a Battlesuit, the second defines how that interacts with the suit's values.

However, this does not preclude Armour values implicit to the morph, so it stacks with bioweave-, carapace- and synthmorph armour. You can also add robotic armour enhancements to the Battlesuit, but would arguably overlap with any the pilot possesses.

This may seem OP, but it lines up with what was said earlier in the thread; after a point higher armour values don’t actually provide much of a benefit.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Carapace adds layering

Robotic enhancement armor counts as an layer of armor not armor inherent to the frame. So it adds to layering penalties.

Similarly Carapace adds layering penalties. It is basically an external armour that you cannot take off.

Reaper has already in its armor rating included it's Heavy Combat armor. Any additional armor layers stack penalties.

RAW you can get into battlesuit in any armor. But anything over 4/4 that counts as a layer will inflict penalties. GM fiat will probably prevent you from fitting into battlesuit of you are in heavy armor already.

Robotic armor enhancement do not prevent you from wearing body armor only inflict layering penalties.

So in general you can have as much armor as you want, but there is pretty realistic layering penalty.

I hope that ends the discussion.

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CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Also most importantly penalty

Also most importantly penalty per additional layer is -20 to all character actions. (EP Core 194 4th printing)

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Benny89 Benny89's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:Also

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Also most importantly penalty per additional layer is -20 to all character actions. (EP Core 194 4th printing)

Actually that looks like a mistake, because (this change) it was not included/mentioned in newest errata before and after 4th printing.