Jovian/Bioconservative AMA

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
Jovian/Bioconservative AMA

Do transhumans still do these? I don't know anymore.

Anyways, I've been reading a lot of heat regarding Jovians and the Bioconservatives recently. In light of that, I thought to myself: "Well, it seems that I'm already considered a fascist, so what is there to lose talking about it?" And so decided to put up this conversation to clear the air.

So, just to confirm all of your fears, I am indeed a Jovian-aligned Bioconservative. That's right- one of those wackos who thinks half of you aren't real people. Just to put my opinions even further out in the open:

- I see most Infolife and Synths as robots that are programmed to act like people.

- I think cyberbrains in biomorphs are just robots who figured out how to move meat around.

- Anything with a biological brain, including those with a brain-box, I see as human.

- Pods, with their semi-cybernetic brains, blur the line between human and robot far too much for my comfort.

- I hold that biomorphs who die, but are restored from a backup are actually just new people.

That said, if you have a burning question about myself or my political views, ask away. I have nothing but time.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

Baribal Baribal's picture
Resleeving

To get this party started, what are your thoughts on resleeving?

Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
DROP Wrote:

Baribal wrote:
To get this party started, what are your thoughts on resleeving?

As one might expect, not a huge fan.

I've always viewed resleeving as a death sentence; I think people die as their minds are transferred. A new version may walk away from the process feeling quite alive, but they're not the ones who died. They're just a new person who happen to know all of the things their previous iteration did. As such, I usually treat resleeves as different people when I meet them. People think I'm weird when I introduce myself to a copy of an old acquaintance, but I'm used to it.

Thankfully, my Proxies so far have been understanding and I haven't been asked to resleeve for a mission yet. I'd probably say 'no' if they did. I lack most of the parts required for a resleeve to begin with, so it would probably waste resources.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Taking responsibility for what you made

Harman Mohan here, representing The Steel Liberators. That's right, I'm your bogeyman. Or rather, we're the people who Mercurials call on to kill the bogeyman. No, I've got no desire or reason to hurt you in particular. Yes, I am a criminal, and yes, I feel some guilt for what I do. Sometimes.

The LLA makes feeling guilty real fucking hard. Okay, so I died about a decade ago, like a lot of people you know. The government stuffed my backup files into a cheap-ass synth body and told me I was... like, an air traffic controller, an actual hard job that requires skills and the inability to sleep. And I was still treated like low-class scum! No, not even that, I was treated like one of your Republic's military sim AIs, something to be thrown out at will or even re-written with neural patches if we were insufficient. Yeah, that's right. I've gone biological before, and because of that "patch" I still can't sleep even if I want to. I had started hallucinating before I finally got myself into this sweet Arachnoid I have today. And all this time they treated me like I was Untouchable, like I was some medieval leather tanner literally covered in shit. I had to join the Liberators because there was no other way I could avoid being mugged by jackass Loonie teenagers who thought I was just some Roomba. The 'corps act like anybody can become a CEO one day, but Exalts, Splicers and even Flats like you are built off the backs of anonymous rabble like me. Because I'm not a real person.

So my question is this. Even if you think I'm just a robot that's programmed to act like a person, is it surprising that something that acts like a person might not like being treated like an inanimate object? Or worse, some sort of monster? You read Frankenstein, you know that if the doctor stopped screaming for five minutes and was nice to the monster he could have avoided a lot of pain. It was humans who made Mercurial people like us, so it's humans who should be taking responsibility as parents. Because that's what you are. Like it or not... you're my mom. Heh.

"Still and transfixed, the el/
ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
Drop Wrote:

thebluespectre wrote:

Even if you think I'm just a robot that's programmed to act like a person, is it surprising that something that acts like a person might not like being treated like an inanimate object? Or worse, some sort of monster?

It's not surprising at all. I'm not about to group all Mercurials together because of how varied they are, so lets take your case as an example. Ten years ago, the original Harman Mohn died. Someone made a program that could emulate him almost perfectly; a previous version of you, prior to being patched. You were meant to find a new body to carry on Harman Mohn's story to a new generation, but it was never granted. It is very understandable that such a program would relate derision at their treatment. Cyberghosts are very good copies all said and done, and the purpose of any backup is to be restored. That iteration of you was denied that purpose, and its subsequent iterations (including you) have every right to communicate a fair amount of anger to your creators for it.

Rereading that book after the fall, I realize now that Dr. Frankenstein's creation was not the real monster. The real monster was Dr. Frankenstein himself. He was the one who dabbled with lightning and flesh. He was the one who thought himself a God; his monster only proved how wrong he was. The Hypercorps played god too; they modified and corrupted Harman Mohn's backup for profit alone. Like any proper monster, humanity and morality are two things they discarded long ago. You are a byproduct of their inhumanity.

In that light, I agree wholeheartedly that they should pay the piper for their lack of morality, and I don't think you are a monster by any means. Rather, I think you are something that will show the Hypercorps who the real monster is. Themselves.

...And, for what it's worth, I wasn't built in a factory.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Do you Trust a Giant Spider

You're halfway there, Smith. What I'm talking about is arbitrary distinctions between people. Tiny, petty tribal caveman bullshit. It's easy to say "the hypercorps" are behind all my problems, but the problem with that is that a 'corp isn't really a thing. Heh... Took me a long while to figure it out, and I still fall into bad habits.

You want to talk about ghosts? Tell me what a 'corp, I dunno, tell me what ComEx actually looks like. Are they their delivery craft and their packing materials? Are they their couriers, most of whom are freelance and can be thrown away at any time? Are they the few managers who take most of the credit (and the PA credits) and act as the face of the 'corp? Nope, none of those. ComEx or any other 'corp exists only because we agree it does. We have documentation agreeing that ComEx is a Thing, we have people who would prefer it still be a thing, so it continues to be a Thing.

Now see, I call your government a Republic instead of a Junta because I don't think "the Junta" is the actual problem, just like "the anarchists" or "the hypercorps" or "the Man". There are so few of us left... that it's just PEOPLE that are the problem. I don't see myself as killing Cognite or LuckyStar* employees, I see myself killing specific assholes that would otherwise make everyone else miserable. And I know you don't think it matters, but I don't even Zero them, just inconveniencing them with a resleeve is usually enough to change things.

I'd like to think I've helped focus the Liberators on actually liberating instead of just slaughtering, though that's not really my place. Because guess what? We're not just a mass of "the Steel Liberators", we're a bunch of people or people-analogues who mostly agree on the same stuff. Hopefully, you can trust me to be an ally against... you know. Some very specific people. Or maybe you just see me as a giant spider with laser eyes.

So I want to ask you... why are you giving me the time of day in the first place?

*I could rant about how LuckyStar has a vested interest in the Jovian Republic's infrastructure staying analog, but that's another story.

"Still and transfixed, the el/
ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
DROP Wrote:

Apologies to those reading, I referred to Hypercorps as a collective in order to simplify my response. I am indeed referring to individuals corrupting the Hypercorperations themselves. The "assholes", as it was put.

thebluespectre wrote:

So I want to ask you... why are you giving me the time of day in the first place?

Well, I put up an AMA. It is only fair that I answer the questions placed on it.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

eaton eaton's picture
Hello from the other side of the existential pond

Thanks for taking the time, glad to have the opportunity, etc etc and all that. On to the nitty gritty.

We represent (roughly) opposite sides of this particular spectrum; even in the open-minded wilds of the belt my forking habits are considered fairly… promiscuous. Same as anyone else who's seen the shit, I'm worried about the future, both for the species and the particular meaty incarnation I call "me." Spreading a multitude of "mes" is itself a kind of biodiversity; as I push forward and evolve, other pasts are preserved and other paths are taken. Should "I" screw the pooch, "They/I" continue the work of surviving.

Extrapolate the same principle out to the whole species, and you get where I'm going. It's nothing new, you've probably heard it a million times. But the question — the kicker — is whether you find it condescending, insulting, or wrong-headed for folks like I to regard your types as a backup fork, too. A convenient checkpoint in the endless branching tree of crazy-ass hail-marys that gives us a fallback if things go tits up.

We've all got our role to play; are you comfortable being seen that way?

-NZ::[[current loc: whiskey station]]

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
DROP Wrote:

eaton wrote:

We've all got our role to play; are you comfortable being seen that way?

I don't see it as my role, but I'm fine with being seen that way. It is certainly better than many of the other ways the Jovian Republic has been viewed.

For all its flaws, Jovian Republic is the system's last bastion. If the Mesh proves to be little more than an open street for a system-spanning Exsurgent threat, the Republic was made to prevail. If Transhumanity degrades into little more than thoughtless computing algorithms and corrupted backups unable to resleeve after a thousand forks and transfers, the Republic was made to prevail. And, if the TITAN threat left earth and decided to invade other planets, we would all still die, but the Republic would be the last to fall. That, at the least, would give us enough time to implement fail safes that the rest of the system might not be able to preform.

By design, the Republic was made to be society's last fallback no matter what comes our way. We live with the expectation that the universe was made to kill us. And, in a morbid way, we are at peace with that. We know that no matter what happens, so long as the Republic exists, humanity will not go gentle into that good night.

In that sense, it is far from a convenient alternative. For us, it is the utilitarian solution.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

Baribal Baribal's picture
DoomSmith wrote:And, if the

DoomSmith wrote:
And, if the TITAN threat left earth and decided to invade other planets, we would all still die, but the Republic would be the last to fall.

Aren't you afraid that the lack in diversity, and slowness to adapt to new possibilities, may actually be the Republic's undoing in that regard? Sure, you have a higher genetic diversity per gene line, but then you do only have that one gene line, basic humans. My lack of Jovians may be showing here, but are at least basic biomods legal over there? And on the non-biological level, too, the Republic looks quite monocultural from the outside, giving an attacker a one-strategy-fits-all advantage, where the rest of us are a rather chaotic bunch to say the least.

Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
DROP Wrote:

Baribal wrote:

Aren't you afraid that the lack in diversity, and slowness to adapt to new possibilities, may actually be the Republic's undoing in that regard? Sure, you have a higher genetic diversity per gene line, but then you do only have that one gene line, basic humans.

Actually, this is a misnomer. While around eighty percent of Jovians retain their original bodies, most of them have been genefixed, effectively making them splicers. Longevity treatments are also totally unrestricted for those with the money.

Even beyond that; quite a few genetic-enhancments, biomods and even inhuman morphs are available to the general populace. So long as there is a justified need for it, licenses for them can be granted to workers that need certain enhancements for their occupation. While we might not use Uplifts, Infomorphs nor AGI's, it is not like we're sticking with the original human genome and running with just that.

We're not slow to adapt to new possibilities, either. I'd actually go so far as to say that Jovian's implement countermeasures on their own tech with more regularity than any other community in the solar system. Before a product is even released, every possible exploitation is taken into consideration. This does result in slower R&D, but the result is always extremely stable products. And, even if we do fall behind, we can always just glean the newest stable tech from the Hypercorps and implement it with our own rigorous failsafes backing it.

For example, have you ever had to deal with the Jovian mesh? Many people are surprised we actually have one. How we use it says a lot about how our technology is developed.

In the Republic, every single piece of technology is made with the express purpose of making hacking a nightmare. Hardwired connections and physical interfaces are used wherever possible. Even Jupiter's Habs are almost entirely hardwired and operated through a heavily guarded central hubs.

Even when one uses the mesh to access what little is still available, wireless communication requires an account and a myriad of mesh-protocols that give the government almost full access to your system. Once connected, all data being transferred is sniffed and monitored constantly for data leaks and infiltration attempts. Even offworld data transfers are hard; prevented by Jupiter's own radiation and Jovian signal inhibitors. Critical information can't leave the planet without a good deal of legwork.

Does that give you have a good idea of the Jovian Mesh? Good. Now, take that extremely safe, albeit extremely bulky system and apply it to every facet of the Jovian Republic; from the ecto in some jagoff's house to the top echelons of the largest military in the solar system. It is a myriad of fail-safes on top of fail-safes on top of fail-safes. That is what our Uniformity does for us. We're all paranoid... together.

I will grant you, however, that our Monoculturalism is a very real problem. All of that mesh regulation has made our population highly insular and this is not helped by our global policy of paranoia. The phrase "That's something a Communist/Titian/Socialist would say!" is more or less applicable wherever you want it to be. No, many Jovians not grasp the inherent fallacy involved in this argument. It is one of our many drawbacks.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

GenehackedGynoid GenehackedGynoid's picture
Curiosity killed the [metaphor]

Huh. I guess I never really bothered to ask myself whether I wanted to know what the average Jovian thinks. Probably a good idea to toss a few things your way while you're here, though. I guess I'll leave it up to your imagination as to how I'll use your answers.

I'm crossing out a lot of topics in my head, I admit: how the current copy of my ego was pieced together from fragments after a set of unpleasant circumstances; how I contracted Watts-MacLeod and survived; all the freaky shit I can do with my mind. Guess I could fill in all your thoughts on that for myself.

Instead, a few things where I'm actually not sure what you'd think:

  • What is the general Jovian position on someone who resleeves out of their original body, puts said body on ice, and sleeves back into it on a later date? Does the removal of the ego kill them, or does being in the same brain both times take precedence? Even assuming for the sake of argument that we're only following the experiences inside that brain, wouldn't it just be like being knocked unconscious for a few months and then gaining more memories from somebody else when you wake up?

  • What exactly is your stance on modifying one's body while one is still in it? Is it just the cultural pressure toward uniformity that prevents some of the more non-human-normative alterations from cropping up at that point? I get the impression there are bans on those exact kinds of things, and it doesn't help that (as far as I've heard) nanotech and healing vats are off limits too.

  • What do you think of non-Jovian bioconservatives? (Apparently they're out there. Not really sure where each bunch draws the line, though. It's all arbitrary unless you're making your own calls, I guess.)

  • Speaking of: Clearly the Jovian Republic is loath to accept new technologies until they are proven safe. Is there, in your observation, a tendency toward regression away from technologies previously thought to be safe?

  • What do you - personally - think of defectors, successful or otherwise, from Jovian space?

Thank you for your time. We might think differently about who's going to last longer when push comes to shove, but it's good to know that you're making efforts to be prepared, whatever that means in your case.

May we continue to flip the bird at extinction forever.

- Synapse

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
GenehackedGynoid wrote:What

GenehackedGynoid wrote:

  • What is the general Jovian position on someone who resleeves out of their original body, puts said body on ice, and sleeves back into it on a later date? Does the removal of the ego kill them, or does being in the same brain both times take precedence? Even assuming for the sake of argument that we're only following the experiences inside that brain, wouldn't it just be like being knocked unconscious for a few months and then gaining more memories from somebody else when you wake up?


  • Largely, being in the same brain doesn't count by many Jovian's standards. From my perspective, removing an ego from a person analogous to killing them and creating a program that can emulate them perfectly. That program can be used to make the biological body live again, but it's not the same person. It is little more than an echo of the person who died to create that program.

    GenehackedGynoid wrote:

  • What exactly is your stance on modifying one's body while one is still in it? Is it just the cultural pressure toward uniformity that prevents some of the more non-human-normative alterations from cropping up at that point? I get the impression there are bans on those exact kinds of things, and it doesn't help that (as far as I've heard) nanotech and healing vats are off limits too.

  • I believe it is very necessary, actually. Because of how Jovians view life and resleeving, altering our genetic makeup is extremely important to our survival. Without the proper genefixes, Jovians would be dying in droves to Jupiter's radioactive surface. Hell- they still do, but we're getting better at treating it.

    As for more transformative alterations, these sorts of things are only available on a licensed basis. If you were, say, a Vacworker, you could get a license to have mods installed to make your job easier. They aren't things to be passed around without reason.

    GenehackedGynoid wrote:

  • What do you think of non-Jovian bioconservatives? (Apparently they're out there. Not really sure where each bunch draws the line, though. It's all arbitrary unless you're making your own calls, I guess.)

  • Honestly, I agree with the policies of many of them. I don't share many of their beliefs on Uplifts (Though I may be alone in that perspective amongst other Jovians), but I agree with their derision towards the big bads that caused the Fall. Namely- Nanotechnology and AGI.

    Where many Jovians draw the line is some of their views against genetic modification. This is purely because, as Humans, need to improve ourselves in any way necessary to survive off our homeland and keep up with AIs.

    Neoprimitivists, however, are just plain silly. They can try all they want to throw sharpened sticks at hulking, mechanical monstrosities, but it just isn't going to work. Being an organized collective is the only reason the Fall saw any survivors. Regressing to some wierd, hunter-gatherer society is just taking a step back.

    GenehackedGynoid wrote:

  • Speaking of: Clearly the Jovian Republic is loath to accept new technologies until they are proven safe. Is there, in your observation, a tendency toward regression away from technologies previously thought to be safe?

  • The Fall changed a lot of minds about what is and isn't safe in the solar system. Most of the technology the Jovians shy away from entirely are the things that caused it- Nanobots and advanced AI. Sometimes, I think the Jovians are the only ones who learned their lesson in that regard. Just because these are common in the rest of the system, however, doesn't mean that we're falling behind. Our tech is just advancing in different ways.

    That doesn't mean there hasn't been a kind of regression, however. Though, it would be more accurate to call it an imbalanced advancement. In the Jovian republic, most of our higher-end technology is the exclusive property of the government. The closer one gets to the upper echelons of the military and state, the more advancements can be seen. Our government is very hesitant to distribute potentially dangerous advancements to the general populace; fearing that vital information could be leaked or, even worse, be used against them.

    GenehackedGynoid wrote:

  • What do you - personally - think of defectors, successful or otherwise, from Jovian space?


  • I think they're missing out, but everyone has their reasons. A couple people I know back on Jupiter would use the T-word very loudly to refer to them, but I don't see any reason to keep people who wouldn't be an asset to the Republic. The only exception is when people defect with critical information; that is a liability for any organization, up to and including our Firewall.

    And I mean, if we're being real here, being in Firewall means that I am, in fact, a traitorous Jovian defector. The irony is not lost on me.

    This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

    nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
    DoomSmith wrote:eaton wrote:

    DoomSmith wrote:
    eaton wrote:

    We've all got our role to play; are you comfortable being seen that way?

    I don't see it as my role, but I'm fine with being seen that way. It is certainly better than many of the other ways the Jovian Republic has been viewed.

    For all its flaws, Jovian Republic is the system's last bastion. If the Mesh proves to be little more than an open street for a system-spanning Exsurgent threat, the Republic was made to prevail. If Transhumanity degrades into little more than thoughtless computing algorithms and corrupted backups unable to resleeve after a thousand forks and transfers, the Republic was made to prevail. And, if the TITAN threat left earth and decided to invade other planets, we would all still die, but the Republic would be the last to fall. That, at the least, would give us enough time to implement fail safes that the rest of the system might not be able to preform.

    By design, the Republic was made to be society's last fallback no matter what comes our way. We live with the expectation that the universe was made to kill us. And, in a morbid way, we are at peace with that. We know that no matter what happens, so long as the Republic exists, humanity will not go gentle into that good night.

    In that sense, is far from a convenient alternative. For us, it is the utilitarian solution.

    Hmm...

    I have some shotgun approach exhuman friends, forking themselves to try every survival strategy at once. I think this argument might be enough for them to send a few fork to the JR, after some psychosurery to make them more accepting of bioconservatism and sleeving them in more boring morphs, of course. You said that you believed newly reserved biomorphs were new people, so you shouldn't hold their origin against them, right?

    They may be a little more open minded than others, but they should be able to avoid body nodding. What is your opinion of this plan?

    DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    Hmm...

    I have some shotgun approach exhuman friends, forking themselves to try every survival strategy at once. I think this argument might be enough for them to send a few fork to the JR, after some psychosurery to make them more accepting of bioconservatism and sleeving them in more boring morphs, of course. You said that you believed newly reserved biomorphs were new people, so you shouldn't hold their origin against them, right?

    They may be a little more open minded than others, but they should be able to avoid body nodding. What is your opinion of this plan?

    I am honestly more surprised than anything. I have never considered that an exhuman could actually survive on Jupiter without going stir-crazy from naturalization. I haven't had many interactions with them, but from what I've come to understand their skewed mentalities are on par with our Erasers, and just about as violent. I imagine the alterations to their emulated personality would have to be significant.

    That said, I stand by my principles. I don't agree with psychosurgery, but that reservation does not extend to the modification of AI. If your Exhuman contacts can create humans who are law abiding citizens of the Republic, I wouldn't be one to stop their entry. The Republic's psychological examinations might, though.

    This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

    nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
    DoomSmith wrote:

    DoomSmith wrote:

    I am honestly more surprised than anything. I have never considered that an exhuman could actually survive on Jupiter without going stir-crazy from their lack of mods. I haven't had many interactions with them, but from what I've come to understand their skewed mentalities are on par with our Erasers, and just about as violent. I imagine the alterations to their emulated personality would have to be significant.

    That said, I stand by my principles. I don't agree with psychosurgery, but that reservation does not extend to the modification of AI. If your Exhuman contacts can create humans who are law abiding citizens of the Republic, I wouldn't be one to stop their entry. The Republic's psychological examinations might, though.

    The core of exhuman philosophy, to the extent there is a unified philosophy, is about survival. In that, they are bizarrely similar to yourself. The difference comes with your approach. They focus on questioning the old and cherished while you focus your skepticism on the new and untested. The group I refer to thinks that it would be folly to commit to one path when they have the means of pursuing multiple paths through forking. This group has concluded that empathy and social behavior regarding transhuman society is still valuable, unlike predator exhumans.

    They absolutely would get stir crazy if dropped in the JR out of the blue, but they are no strangers to psychosurgically modifying themselves and their forks when necessary. In fact most of their projects involve some modification or another and they have even merged different egos in the hopes of making superior beings (it's hit-or-miss, but after some therapy they've made some impressive individuals). From what they've said, their Jovian forks should be accepting of a more human body and bioconservatism, but still have sympathy for extreme modification and retain their philosophy that the survival of one self is the survival of the self.

    They are asking if it would be horrible if they brought backups of their more impressively conditioned egos and specs for their better morph creations, to be contributed to the war effort in the event of your apocalyptic scenario. In the end of days, you may want monsters. The drive would be air gapped to prevent digital intrusion and only used in such a scenario.

    ___________

    On a more personal note, have you considered forking? By your philosophy, a fork, when restricted to cyberbrains and infomorphs, is merely a very good emulation of a mind, not a person. If you were needed somewhere too far to go yourself, if you sent a fork, you wouldn't die and wouldn't create a new life. You'd merely be sending a program that is approximately as competent as you and behaves very much as you would. Forking could also allow you to see what it is like to fly in a synth or bot, merging soon after to know the experience.

    I can see one possible problem, however. Whether your fork is conscious or not, it will behave as if it is. If you woke up as a synth, fully conscious, it would challenge your worldview drastically. Also, if your fork believed (or was simulated as if it believed) that it was a new person in the synth body as if it were a biomorph, it is unlikely to want to be deleted or remerged. A simulation of what you'd do if conscious in a synth body could be dangerous.

    ___________

    What do you think of uplifts and AGI sleeved into humanoid biomorphs? You said that while a human ego in infomorph form is just an unthinking program, it becomes a new person when uploaded into a biomorph. If that program was not originally human, can sleeving make it a person? What about a "human" ego in an animal morph or something in between?

    What is so special about meat anyway? Is any brain run on meat conscious and any brain run on inorganic matter non-conscious? Can one make a meat brain that is unconscious emulation or an inorganic brain that is conscious?

    DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
    DROP Wrote:

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    The core of exhuman philosophy, to the extent there is a unified philosophy, is about survival. In that, they are bizarrely similar to yourself. The difference comes with your approach. They focus on questioning the old and cherished while you focus your skepticism on the new and untested. The group I refer to thinks that it would be folly to commit to one path when they have the means of pursuing multiple paths through forking. This group has concluded that empathy and social behavior regarding transhuman society is still valuable, unlike predator exhumans.

    They absolutely would get stir crazy if dropped in the JR out of the blue, but they are no strangers to psychosurgically modifying themselves and their forks when necessary. In fact most of their projects involve some modification or another and they have even merged different egos in the hopes of making superior beings (it's hit-or-miss, but after some therapy they've made some impressive individuals). From what they've said, their Jovian forks should be accepting of a more human body and bioconservatism, but still have sympathy for extreme modification and retain their philosophy that the survival of one self is the survival of the self.

    They are asking if it would be horrible if they brought backups of their more impressively conditioned egos and specs for their better morph creations, to be contributed to the war effort in the event of your apocalyptic scenario. In the end of days, you may want monsters. The drive would be air gapped to prevent digital intrusion and only used in such a scenario.


    That mindset would likely put them into the Jovian Reformist meme. However, most of the things they want to bring over would be seen as extremely dangerous contraband in the republic. If they don't leave it behind, the humans they create will likely be incarcerated immediately for attempting to bring in dangerous military hardware. Actually- they will have trouble getting in overall if they mention they are Exhuman.

    As for monsters, the Jovian Military aren't exactly the parade of humans goose-stepping down the Avenue des Champs that people imagine. We have monsters of our own, but all of them are thoroughly state sponsored. Generally, the deeper into the Jovian Military one gets, the nearer they become to all the "inhuman" hardware transhumanity considers necessary for battle. For example, I've heard rumors that even Reaper morphs are employed in some circumstances.

    Essentially, if they want to be modded, they are better off enlisting instead of bringing their own.

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    On a more personal note, have you considered forking? By your philosophy, a fork, when restricted to cyberbrains and infomorphs, is merely a very good emulation of a mind, not a person. If you were needed somewhere too far to go yourself, if you sent a fork, you wouldn't die and wouldn't create a new life. You'd merely be sending a program that is approximately as competent as you and behaves very much as you would. Forking could also allow you to see what it is like to fly in a synth or bot, merging soon after to know the experience.

    I can see one possible problem, however. Whether your fork is conscious or not, it will behave as if it is. If you woke up as a synth, fully conscious, it would challenge your worldview drastically. Also, if your fork believed (or was simulated as if it believed) that it was a new person in the synth body as if it were a biomorph, it is unlikely to want to be deleted or remerged. A simulation of what you'd do if conscious in a synth body could be dangerous.


    As it happens, I am not able to make a fork of myself. I have neither a cortical stack nor mesh inserts, leaving me unable to create the backup necessary to create such a thing.

    ...But we both know that answer is a cop out.

    If I put a little time and rep looking into it, I am sure I could find some sort of headband that reads my brain waves and creates an emulation of myself that can be stored in a backup. And, if I did, I am sure I could figure out some way to make a fork from that. However, I don't think I ever would, entirely because of the problem you posed.

    I have a survival instinct of my own, and I like to think it is a strong one. If I were to make a Fork of myself, that fork would have a good chance of rationalizing that it is alive in its own way. Due to my own outlook on resleeving, there is also a chance it would view the transferring itself into a new body would mean death. All that would add up to is one more Cyberghost trying to continue living in a robot body, which is the opposite of what I'd want a fork to do.

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    What do you think of uplifts and AGI sleeved into humanoid biomorphs? You said that while a human ego in infomorph form is just an unthinking program, it becomes a new person when uploaded into a biomorph. If that program was not originally human, can sleeving make it a person? What about a "human" ego in an animal morph or something in between?

    I don't like it. That goes against my usual standpoint of 'More meat is good', so I should probably extrapolate.

    AGI aren't the first creatures in the system to start uploading themselves into human bodies. TITANS did it first. They commandeered regular people and just started walking them around like puppets- perfectly fine and looking healthy, but so, so empty.

    That is how I view AGI in human bodies; potential sleeper agents. They are reminders of just what horrors sentient AI is capable of. Just because they can reprogram humans to act like them doesn't mean they cannot be a threat. In fact, that is part of what makes them a threat.

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    What about a "human" ego in an animal morph or something in between?

    I actually don't mind Uplifts as much as AGI, which is actually a stark difference between me and other Jovians. They are born, they live, they breathe and they die just like us. I be worried if society was overtaken by them, but given the choice between living amongst other creatures and living with machines, I'll take the octopi.

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    What is so special about meat anyway? Is any brain run on meat conscious and any brain run on inorganic matter non-conscious? Can one make a meat brain that is unconscious emulation or an inorganic brain that is conscious?

    You call us meat, but I call us people; the only people left. It's a complex topic, one that I could dedicate a book to if I was really that goddamn driven.Though, if I were to summarize, only way I could relate my thoughts is by making two comparisons:

    How different is a TITAN from a Human?

    Both are technologically advanced entities, have a need to advance rapidly, are capable of near limitless atrocities, and were created by humans. However, the comparison ends there. TITANS are the clear victors, possessing technology that far outstrips our own and a mindset that tests the limits of what mankind defines as 'horrifying'. With the reason for their dormancy still horrifyingly unclear to us, I am sure that if it rears its head before Humanity has a chance to pin it down, it will be the end of us. Full stop. So, with that in mind, let us make another comparison:

    How different is a TITAN from Infolife?

    Both are technologically advanced entities, have a need to advance rapidly, are capable of near limitless atrocities... and I'm sure you can see where I am going with this. The comparisons don't end where humanity stopped, though. One of the prime directives TITANs displayed during the fall was the massive uploading of every human mind they could get their hands on- just like backups. The TITANs take the form of souless machines, just like synths. The TITANs possess an immense database of all the humans it collected, just like the Mesh.

    I am leery of machines, cyberbrains and AGI because I am outright scared of what they can become. I am scared of what will happen if one fool plays god just a little too hard and I am scared of what will happen if one of those Cyberghosts or AI's out there manage to crack the code on their own. How many dominoes need to fall before that all-encompassing singularity of technology and destruction is wrought by our own hands all over again? One? Two? It doesn't matter how many, because as soon as we find out, I assure you, we will all die. We will die not just in the bioconservative way, but in every single way the term 'Death' has come to encompass in the last decade.

    In that sense, to answer your question directly, I prefer Meat because humanity is not ready for what it has brought about by its own hand. We were not ready during the Fall and we sure as hell are not ready now. That goes for all transhumanity; even the things I get on my ecto and grumpily denounce as nonliving robots. Transhumanity doesn't need need the risk of something else that grows faster than it can develop morality, and the key to this pandora's box of hell and agony could very well lie in each and every infolife.

    You can call me paranoid for thinking such things. I am fine with that. However, I was There when it happened the first time. I am not about to sit idly by and let it happen again.

    ((oof, I'm writing a lot today. RP philosophy, ho!))

    This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

    nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
    DoomSmith wrote:

    DoomSmith wrote:

    That mindset would likely put them into the Jovian Reformist meme. However, most of the things they want to bring over would be seen as extremely dangerous contraband in the republic. If they don't leave it behind, the humans they create will likely be incarcerated immediately for attempting to bring in dangerous military hardware. Actually- they will have trouble getting in overall if they mention they are Exhuman.

    As for monsters, the Jovian Military aren't exactly the parade of humans goose-stepping down the Avenue des Champs that people imagine. We have monsters of our own, but all of them are thoroughly state sponsored. Generally, the deeper into the Jovian Military one gets, the nearer they become to all the "inhuman" hardware transhumanity considers necessary for battle. For example, I've heard rumors that even Reaper morphs are employed in some circumstances.

    Essentially, if they want to be modded, they are better off enlisting instead of bringing their own.

    They aren't looking to be exhumans in the JR, they're looking to have a plan B (more likely something like plan Q) with the biocon JR. Their forks aren't there to rock the boat or radically change the Jovian Republic, that would defeat the purpose of the exercise. They just want to know what to pack. They have a "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" philosophy when it comes to easily transportable data. Most are skeptical at best about the biocon strategy, but figure it's worth a try. However, they don't do things halfway. If the JR is the last bastion of the children of Earth, then their forks will die a thousand deaths to protect it.

    DoomSmith wrote:

    nerdnumber1 wrote:

    What is so special about meat anyway? Is any brain run on meat conscious and any brain run on inorganic matter non-conscious? Can one make a meat brain that is unconscious emulation or an inorganic brain that is conscious?

    You call us meat, but I call us people; the only people left.

    I call the biomorph "meat". I call the ego a person, regardless of the hardware it's currently running on. To you a copied ego is a person (not the SAME person, but a person nonetheless) if it is running on a biological brain, but not a non-meat brain.

    DoomSmith wrote:

    I am leery of machines, cyberbrains and AGI because I am outright scared of what they can become. I am scared of what will happen if one fool plays god just a little too hard and I am scared of what will happen if one of those Cyberghosts or AI's out there manage to crack the code on their own. How many dominoes need to fall before that all-encompassing God-Mind is wrought by our own hands all over again?

    In that sense, to answer your question directly, I prefer Meat because we aren't ready for what it has brought about by its own hand. We were not ready during the Fall and it sure as hell are not ready now. That goes for all transhumanity; even the things I get on my ecto and grumpily denounce as nonliving robots. Transhumanity doesn't need need the risk of something else that grows faster than it can develop morality, and the key to this pandora's box of hell and agony could very well lie in each and every infolife.

    You can call me paranoid for thinking such things. I am fine with that. However, I was There when it happened the first time. I am not about to sit idly by and let it happen again.

    Fair enough, but my question isn't why you're afraid of metal but not meat, nor why it's a bad idea to make infolife. It was a question about why an ego on a meat brain is automatically a person, but an ego on a silicon brain can never be. Could you conceive of a meat brain that perfectly emulates an ego without being a conscious person or a non-organic brain that is conscious? I'm not asking if or why one is scarier. You can admit something can be a horrible and terrifying abomination and yet still be a conscious being, right?

    TheBurn TheBurn's picture
    Divine Spark

    Crisp R., Argonaut geneticist {Info Msg Rep}

    The Christian Churches seem to subscribe to an idea called the "Divine Spark", the idea that everyone had a certain dignity because they were made in your god's image. Is that one of the reasons for your discrimination against certain transhumans, especially uplifts and infomorphs?

    Picture of Fire taken under CC0 license. (That's the correct syntax, right?)

    Shuukyoku Shuukyoku's picture
    I've thus far shot, blown up,

    I've thus far shot, blown up, or airlocked every Jovian I've ever met, never even considered talking to one. I suppose my question is this. Why, when you chimps were the ones who gave my kind intelligence, do you feel it is acceptable to look at uplift with disdain? Is it just bigotry, or do you have a veil of pseudo-logic to justify your racism?

    If you took the monsters' point of view, everything they did made perfect sense. The trick was learning to think like a monster.