Cloning Morphs

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Zarpaulus Zarpaulus's picture
Cloning Morphs

The "Integration and Alienation modifiers" table lists "Clone of Prior Morph" as a +20 modifier, and I expect that inhabiting a replica of one's birth morph would help characters with Body Dysmorphia Disorder or the Identity Crisis negative trait (why isn't that listed as a Mental Disorder?). However there don't seem to be any rules for commissioning a clone.

Closest I've seen are the rules in Transhuman and the Morph Recognition Guide for "Heirloom" morphs cloned from celebrities, which have their price category bumped up a notch from the morph's normal cost. Do you think that would be enough to compensate for the lack of "economy of scale" when commissioning a clone of a specific person?

I know that most campaigns don't have the time scale to cover force-growing a biomorph to maturity, but it might make a decent long-term character goal.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
That sounds reasonable to me.

That sounds reasonable to me.

nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
The "Custom-Grown or

The "Custom-Grown or -Designed Morphs" sidebar (EP page 278) says that it takes 1.5-2 years to clone a biomorph and 6 months to 1 year to clone a pod in a healing vat.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Actually, it doesn't say that

Actually, it doesn't say that. It does not say that accelerated growth must happen in a healing vat. In fact, it doesn't say what you need to do accelerated growth. I think its safe to assume it can be done in an exowomb. Save the healing vat for when you need to grow a body for a severed head.

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Cloning a biomorph is just

Cloning a biomorph is just making a biomorph to exact specifications. So it would take ~3 years to force-grow it in a body bank the same as any other biomorph. (Half that for a pod, not that anybody grew up in a pod.) The credit/CP cost would be basically the same as any other morph with those stats and augs.

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Zarpaulus Zarpaulus's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Cloning a biomorph is just making a biomorph to exact specifications. So it would take ~3 years to force-grow it in a body bank the same as any other biomorph. (Half that for a pod, not that anybody grew up in a pod.) The credit/CP cost would be basically the same as any other morph with those stats and augs.

Doubt it, mass-produced is always less expensive than custom. Economies of scale you know.
CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Zarpaulus wrote:

Zarpaulus wrote:

Doubt it, mass-produced is always less expensive than custom. Economies of scale you know.

In this case not much changes between one normal Menton or Splicer and the mass produced one. When you grow it it needs the same tank, nutrients and power as any other morph. So I guess the body farm would require a small customisation fee and that's all.

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Zarpaulus Zarpaulus's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Zarpaulus wrote:

Doubt it, mass-produced is always less expensive than custom. Economies of scale you know.

In this case not much changes between one normal Menton or Splicer and the mass produced one. When you grow it it needs the same tank, nutrients and power as any other morph. So I guess the body farm would require a small customisation fee and that's all.


You really think there's that little price difference between buying an existing morph off the shelf and paying a body farm to spend two years specially growing something for you?
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Zarpaulus wrote

Zarpaulus wrote:
CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Zarpaulus wrote:

Doubt it, mass-produced is always less expensive than custom. Economies of scale you know.

In this case not much changes between one normal Menton or Splicer and the mass produced one. When you grow it it needs the same tank, nutrients and power as any other morph. So I guess the body farm would require a small customisation fee and that's all.


You really think there's that little price difference between buying an existing morph off the shelf and paying a body farm to spend two years specially growing something for you?

I do. In Eclipse Phase, economies of scale are basically wonky, since most manufacturing is still minifacturing.
They were going to be growing something there anyway, the real price-bitch is cooking up the genetics for the custom morph that hyperelites and wannabes demand to have. If you already have the genetics, and own them free and clear - for example, them being the genetics to the morph you were born in; assuming you either own those genetics or at least that nobody can prove you don't (such as if it was made by a strictly Earthside corp that was lost in the Fall with no claimaints to its IP to challenge you) - then they can just put those in the tank and start growing.

The moneyspinner is the design work, and that doesn't go to the body farms, it goes to the geneticists. The body farm will make out like a bandit on this deal, and so will you.

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ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
its always the labor that

its always the labor that gets in you in the end. Also worth noting whether this is done in a capitalist polity or a communal polity

Zarpaulus Zarpaulus's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Zarpaulus wrote:
CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Zarpaulus wrote:

Doubt it, mass-produced is always less expensive than custom. Economies of scale you know.

In this case not much changes between one normal Menton or Splicer and the mass produced one. When you grow it it needs the same tank, nutrients and power as any other morph. So I guess the body farm would require a small customisation fee and that's all.


You really think there's that little price difference between buying an existing morph off the shelf and paying a body farm to spend two years specially growing something for you?

I do. In Eclipse Phase, economies of scale are basically wonky, since most manufacturing is still minifacturing.
They were going to be growing something there anyway, the real price-bitch is cooking up the genetics for the custom morph that hyperelites and wannabes demand to have. If you already have the genetics, and own them free and clear - for example, them being the genetics to the morph you were born in; assuming you either own those genetics or at least that nobody can prove you don't (such as if it was made by a strictly Earthside corp that was lost in the Fall with no claimaints to its IP to challenge you) - then they can just put those in the tank and start growing.

The moneyspinner is the design work, and that doesn't go to the body farms, it goes to the geneticists. The body farm will make out like a bandit on this deal, and so will you.


Any tank that's growing some rando's clone is a tank that can't be used for growing high-grade morphs or sleeves that can be sold on the open market. They'll need the proper incentive to make something they can't sell.

It's called "opportunity cost", look it up.

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
except the rando morph is a

except the rando morph is a guaranteed sale or do you think no money has changed hands prior to the work being done? Because then its mass market morph that has higher opportunity cost than the custom job.

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture
There is really no difference

There is really no difference between an "off the rack" splicer and a "custom genetics" splicer on the open market. At that level, they are both splicers.

The custom one will command a premium ONLY to the specialized buyer. By the same token, unless the custom one has defects, it is just as valuable as any other morph of the same type.

I imagine that morphs are pretty much all built to order by someone. That may be the hab's biodiversity policies, a marketing department, the mad scientist that designs all the morphs for fun, or whoever won the "morph upgrade lottery".

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Zarpaulus Zarpaulus's picture
kigmatzomat wrote:There is

kigmatzomat wrote:
There is really no difference between an "off the rack" splicer and a "custom genetics" splicer on the open market. At that level, they are both splicers.

The custom one will command a premium ONLY to the specialized buyer. By the same token, unless the custom one has defects, it is just as valuable as any other morph of the same type.

I imagine that morphs are pretty much all built to order by someone. That may be the hab's biodiversity policies, a marketing department, the mad scientist that designs all the morphs for fun, or whoever won the "morph upgrade lottery".


Except that it explicitly states that most morphs are mass-produced. Rimward has a section on one of Titan's microcorps that produces sleeves for their "every mind a body" program and it says nearly all their Hazers are variations of the same basic template with minor random mutations for variety.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Zarpaulus wrote:kigmatzomat

Zarpaulus wrote:
kigmatzomat wrote:

Except that it explicitly states that most morphs are mass-produced. Rimward has a section on one of Titan's microcorps that produces sleeves for their "every mind a body" program and it says nearly all their Hazers are variations of the same basic template with minor random mutations for variety.

I'd say that means "generic looks that you need to tweak with a cosmetic surgeon, or look like a sibling to all other morphs of the line", with "baseline enhancements".

Look at it this way. On EP, cloning and making biomorphs is like running a printer nowadays. You can print the same page over and over and the only costs are the consumables (paper, ink and electricity in this example), and the opportunity cost of not being able to use the printer for other works.
The "every mind a body" program would be the same as printing the exact same ten pages (for example, with each unique biomorph being one page) with an algorithm that makes the first and last line of each page to be unique... kinda like printing money, if you prefer: unique serial number, several denominations, but in the end little difference between bills of the same value.

A custom morph can be like using a template and filling the gaps by demand, or writing it from scratch. However, for the printer it takes the same effort to produce ten copies of the same page than it takes to print 10 different pages.

Anyway, there are two personalization ways for morphs. First is custom genetics the oligarchs are so fond of (which also gives bonuses to the resleeving rolls), where you don't care about the augments or the printing cost... because you own the printing business, frankly. The second is to make a morph of whatever genetic code with "implants", where you just pick whatever biomorph of that model you have around and tweak, implanting it with the required stuff via surgical/nano operation, in which case you already have the parts that take years to grow (essentially, the brain and the nervous system).
Worst case scenario, you take those parts from a morph and install them into a custom-grow body, essentially making a brain transplant; I doubt that will take more than a few weeks, and you can grow another brain for the other body, or recycle it.

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture
Zarpaulus wrote:

Zarpaulus wrote:

Except that it explicitly states that most morphs are mass-produced. Rimward has a section on one of Titan's microcorps that produces sleeves for their "every mind a body" program and it says nearly all their Hazers are variations of the same basic template with minor random mutations for variety.

Most morphs are also cases and therefore really mass produced. Cases should be go from raw materials to finished product in a couple days, vs the 1,000 days of a biomorphs. Lots of stamped panels, standardized components use in multiple places, and built using the most plentiful raw materials at that hab.

Biomorphs take @3 years to grow. Based on that, in a free market scenario there would be @2.5 years of bidding for the right to use the tank next. That gives plenty of time to have the custom geneprint developed and vetted.

There is no difference in the "manufacturing" cost. It is all administrative overhead. In a world full of infomorphs forks, and various levels of AI, that should be a near zero cost. It won't be, but it should be.

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Lazarus Lazarus's picture
There is some difference in

There is some difference in production between a mass market biomorph and a custom biomorph because of tolerances if nothing else. If a facility is producing a Splicer with brown eyes using the Bb gene and genetic crossover should occur giving it blue eyes it's not that big a deal. They can probably still sell it with blue eyes. If they really need brown eyes they can use gene therapy and change its genotype to BB and ensure it has brown eyes.

That's not the case if they are making duplicate biomorph. And genetics isn't the only thing that the producers need to be concerned about. Epigenetic triggers can cause one body to grow taller or shorter, more muscular, less dexterous, etc. than another even though they have identical genes. I'm sure that the producers have an optimal program for growing 'new' morphs but a program to mimic all the triggers that someone was exposed to growing up in the real world is probably much more complicated and as a result the growing morph will probably take a lot more monitoring to try and ensure it 'comes out right'.

Now whether this level of extra work is enough to bump a morph up an entire cost category or whether it is going to just be a small surcharge that is tacked on is something that can definitely be debated. The amount of extra work might be very easily offloaded to low grade AI computers or they could require constant attention from highly skilled specialists. That's probably a call each GM will have to make for their own game.

My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.