Acquiring Gear/Morphs - Open Discussion

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Grim G Grim G's picture
LibraryDrone wrote:please

LibraryDrone wrote:
please please please, When your describing how often major favors can be used make it say "once per campaign ARC" instead of the current "once per campaign" i was super confused for a minute there.

I think they're mixing up Campaign and Adventure. Personally I say it resets after the latter.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
If the GM can change my character at will, it's not mine.

----- Resources / Reputation.

My biggest problem with the economics system is that we apparently have multiple methods of achieving the same goal which don't really gel. Ideally, these need to be two variables in a combined system.

One simplification is already in play: Resources now give extra MP, which can be used to get extra gear.
We could strip away the "you can acquire [Complexity] gear items given the appropriate time frame" entirely and have it still give appropriate benefits, with the balancing restriction that those purchases can only happen at the start of the scenario.
Then we can call them Resource Points.

That said, I wouldn't ditch the base benefit entirely, but instead use it to determine either Rep Favour refresh times and/or Gear Acquisition Time.

I'd also make Burning Rep work by inflicting a persistent penalty rather than a permanent reduction, which can be removed later by expending favours.

In addition but partially unrelated, I'd increase the default Resource level and make the lowest a Negative Trait to represent indentures or other low-resource characters.

----- Fake Ids.

I think I'm in the minority here, but maybe Fake Ids should simply work by applying a penalty to Rep rolls depending on the Id's quality? It'd save a lot of bother and prevent powergaming.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

swordchucks swordchucks's picture
KISS

RobBoyle wrote:
It would solve the problem of tracking multiple ID rep scores though.

My vote goes to anything that keeps this from bloating up into a whole parallel system that requires a spreadsheet to manage.

As a simple thought - a fake ID comes with a 20 (or 40 or whatever) in one network. If you ever burn rep with it, the identity collapses under the scrutiny.

I do think there's some room to merge together the concept ore rep and resources. It almost feels like you could have resources only grant the bonus MP and leave it at that. You can trade MP for gear, and it refreshes on a reasonable, sensical timeline. I might suggest lowering the cost of Resources to 1 CP per MP, though.

Then just be a bit looser with how rep is defined and make that the only real in-game economy. It's reputation and resources and all of that, all rolled into one. Your c-rep represents knowing people, but also cash, for instance.

eaton eaton's picture
Quote:I think they're mixing

Quote:
I think they're mixing up Campaign and Adventure. Personally I say it resets after the latter.

Indeed. The players I GM for really love their characters, and we've built a 3-year-long campaign arc that covers multiple years of IC time, with lots of adventures chained together. If terms like "session" or "adventure" or "campaign" are used in hard-and-fast rules like favor refresh, it's critically important that they be defined or explained. I'm pretty sure that our anarchist mover-shaker, who's managed to accumulate and maintain 90+ @-rep, can pull more than one major favor in half a decade.

Probably out of scope for this thread, but a brief discussion of scene-session-adventure-campaign pacing might be helpful for beginning GMs.

LibraryDrone LibraryDrone's picture
That works to. either way it

That works to. either way it's confusing as it's written now

“Science fiction is very well suited to asking philosophical questions; questions about the nature of reality, what it means to be human, how do we know the things that we think we know.”
― Ted Chiang

Scottbert Scottbert's picture
Is it slightly weird that in

Is it slightly weird that in-game riches potentially translate to more out-of-game flex?

o11o1 o11o1's picture
You can bribe people and pay

You can bribe people and pay for various nifty things without having to claim it as an actual [minor] complexity item.

A slight smell of ions....

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Quote:Now, that could be a

Quote:
Now, that could be a useful limiter to add to the system, that the bulk of your assets are in a specific, designated polity...

I'm pretty sure the current wording for resources implies this being the case. Clarity or some definite rules on the matter would help (maybe associating the Resources to a particular Rep?)

As for limiting/balancing Resources against Rep: Bear in mind that Resources is a narrative tool to expand on your characters Flex - offering another avenue for the limited narrative control Flex provides.

Unless I'm mistaken, you have to spend points of Flex to get the benefits of your Resources, which means you might end up getting the gear you want, but suddenly that combat you weren't prepared for becomes all the more tense, because you don't have as much ability to skew the dice in your favour.

I feel it's a fair trade, because Rep offers more for less on a weekly basis. All Rep favours require is a roll to see if anyone can chalk up the thing you want, because you're so awesome. With resources you're affecting the narrative on your own power (and in-universe expense), rather than relying on the generosity of others.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Lurkingdaemon wrote:Unless I

Lurkingdaemon wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, you have to spend points of Flex to get the benefits of your Resources, which means you might end up getting the gear you want, but suddenly that combat you weren't prepared for becomes all the more tense, because you don't have as much ability to skew the dice in your favour.

I don't think that's the case. Resources 3+ will let you acquire more complex objects on the fly with a simple Flex point expenditure (Moderate instead of Minor), but the general acquisition doesn't seem to require a Flex point. This means that when and I need electronic tools (kit), I can spend a Flex point to conveniently already have one. The high resources guy could instead spend that point to have a utilitool.

If I just go looking for a utilitool, I don't need to spend the Flex point.

If there were a Flex point requirement for all purchases, the system would probably work better. Spend 3 Flex points and you can get that Major complexity object. This matches what it would take to reset the favor from reputation with 3 Moxie points.

It still makes the Face archetype less important (who has specialized in reputation), since it's easy to acquire a 3 point Flex pool, but getting a 3 point Moxie pool requires some trade-offs, like the Sylph morph instead of a Fury. Either of those characters can get a Major item every day, though with a reputation of 80, the Moxie character only has a 50% chance (-30 for Major favor).

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Ep2_MakingCharacters wrote:At

Ep2_MakingCharacters wrote:
At Level 1, you can acquire Minor gear items given the appropriate time frame.
At Level 2, you can acquire Moderate gear items given the appropriate time frame.
At Level 3, you can acquire Major gear items given the appropriate time frame.
At Level 4, you have the capability to make even Rare and Restricted items available (GM discretion).

If your GM decides that "appropriate time frame" is once a month for any purchase, then suddenly your Rep is much better, because you can get more out of it with the weekly refreshing of favours. If your GM is more lenient, or makes your Resources refresh along the same rate as your Rep, then it's a wash.

Even with the default timeframes, where you could bury your enemies in purchasing power, it's a case of "Why are you complaining about being Bruce Wayne?"

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
That's not a cooldown it's

That's not a cooldown it's how long it takes to get the stuff.

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Semantics

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
That's not a cooldown it's how long it takes to get the stuff.

Even so, it boils down to the same idea of "you get the thing after x amount of time."

Otherwise I don't really feel there's all that many issues with resources. With the timeframes your character/muse is presumably occupied looking item when they could be doing other things. Sneaky GMs could always create situations where the player has to choose between their shopping and pursuing some other task, which may or may not be critical to some aspect of the adventure/campaign.

Thats said, even as an abstraction, it's useful to know how much stuff a person could potentially buy, and what means they would be at. By level 3 Resources, you literally are approaching Bruce Wayne in sheer spending power - which could be an invaluable asset if the local server is strapped for funds/gear. By level 4 things admittedly do get a little rediculous (what with potentially owning your own private habitat), but it's probably one of the reasons Firewall is tapping your character in the first place: its no skin off their teeth if its your character whos footing the bill.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
But rep also has an amount of

But rep also has an amount of time it takes, and a cooldown, the problem is how much stronger than rep it is, where I think you pretty much always want to max out resources.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Lurkingdaemon wrote:If your

Lurkingdaemon wrote:
If your GM decides that "appropriate time frame" is once a month for any purchase, then suddenly your Rep is much better, because you can get more out of it with the weekly refreshing of favours. If your GM is more lenient, or makes your Resources refresh along the same rate as your Rep, then it's a wash.

Acquiring Gear and Morphs specifies the acquisition time frame for purchases on page 2 (using Rep, Resources, or a Nanofabricator). These are 2, 8, and 24 hours for Minor, Moderate, and Major items.

There is no cooldown for Resources, so 24 hours later, you can acquire another Major item. For Rep purchases, the cooldown for acquiring another Major item is the end of the campaign (3/week for Minor and 1 week for Moderate). I'm not sure if this is what you meant by the weekly refreshing of favors (which does apply up to Moderate).

Your GM can house rule a fix to make things balanced, but it would be nice if the game started out more balanced.

Resources isn't the only one to run into this. Nanofabrication has a similar issue. The GM has a lot more narrative discretion in avoiding abuse of that, and you still need to acquire or create blueprints.

I'm not really complaining about being Bruce Wayne. I'm more concerned about the fact that everyone is Bruce Wayne, and anyone who doesn't want to play Bruce Wayne isn't competitive (admittedly hyperbolic).

What if reputation favors didn't have a cooldown (or had a cooldown of 1 day)? In that case, it would mechanically be more competitive with Resources, since while it's less reliable for acquiring things, it's also useful for getting other favors (like information). An 80 reputation (16CP) provides a 50% chance of getting a Major item (probably bumped to 75% by Moxie point). For a significantly smaller investment (6CP), the character can reliably get the same asset from their Resources. Both Resources and any particular Rep have regions where they're not going to be useful, but this seems pretty balanced to me.

Having a 1 day refresh on favors might lead to players having way too many things. In their first session, they could acquire reusable blueprints for all the Moderate or cheaper gear they want. It might also work out fine. I'm not sure.

Similarly, if Resources had the same cooldown as Rep, it would make these more balanced. I really dislike the campaign cooldown (scenario would be fine), though.

I think I'd also like to see the benefit of forks/simulspace toned down for the Program tests to create blueprints. While it's nice to be able to take 8, 32, or 96 hours to make blueprints for Minor, Moderate, or Major items, it sure does make it easy to get things (again, perhaps this is a proper part of post-scarcity). These timeframes work well if the players need to create something during the scenario, since this is the kind of time they may have before dealing with the threats.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
ubik2 wrote:

ubik2 wrote:

If there were a Flex point requirement for all purchases, the system would probably work better. Spend 3 Flex points and you can get that Major complexity object. This matches what it would take to reset the favor from reputation with 3 Moxie points.

It still makes the Face archetype less important (who has specialized in reputation), since it's easy to acquire a 3 point Flex pool, but getting a 3 point Moxie pool requires some trade-offs, like the Sylph morph instead of a Fury. Either of those characters can get a Major item every day, though with a reputation of 80, the Moxie character only has a 50% chance (-30 for Major favor).

I could see some playing around with the numbers, but I overall agree with this. Perhaps Higher Resources applying a discount on the flex? Or maybe each level of Resources is actually the max amount of Flex you are allowed to spend on things, with bigger ticket items still costing more Flex?

Perhaps...
Resources 1 You can spend a singe Flex Point to purchase from a retailer, fence, or other source an item of Minor Complexity. You may need to travel to or find such a place first.
Resources 2 You may now also spend two flex points to purchase or happen to own items of Moderate Complexity.
Resources 3 You may now spend four flex points to purchase items of Major Complexity.
Resources 4 Buying Major complexity items now only costs three flex points, unless that item is of a rare or restricted classification, which you can now attempt to purchase for four flex points. There may be additional complications in negotiating a sale.

Reminder: a basic usage of Flex Points is to introduce items to the scene, but the GM controls where they appear, and importantly if a hostile is the one who owns them at the time they appear. The Resources trait is spending more flex, but it's -your- item from the get-go.

My first draft said "Purchase or happen to already own at your home", but that seemed like it might twig too powerfully very quickly, especially at the higher end levels. In either case, this is a Credit based expense, so requires the people you're paying to actually be caring about money (And potentially also money from your home polity)

Of course, with more resources increasing your Morph Points, and thus potentially your Flex Pool again, this could be some level of double dipping.

A slight smell of ions....

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Time spent vs Time waiting

One subtext to the Rep vs Resources wording in the rules seems to be about how time is spent for getting gear.

With Rep expenditures, it seems to be the case where you put out your request, and figure out how the item in question is made available to you - with an amount of time needed for someone to possibly deliver it, or put it someplace your character can receive it.

With Resources expenditures, it feels like it's a case where your character (or their muse, if they're VERY trusting, or programmed some exacting instructions) have to spend time browsing local mesh markets/directories for the item in question.

Basically Rep gear seems to be delivered in some way, whereas Resource-bought gear is something you go out for yourself (Fabricated gear more or less works like Resource-bought, in that you have to spend the time making it).

This loops back around to my point of time spent shopping vs time spent waiting - the guy waiting on a rep delivery can do other things, while the guy shopping is devoting all his time and attention to that (when he might be needed doing something else).

Nothing solid to go on, but that's the general feel I've been getting.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I can't seem to find printing

I can't seem to find printing times for nanofabricators. Are they listed anywhere?

Making a morph:
When it says 1 week + 1 per MP, does it mean 1 week + 1 week per MP? Likewise, is 1 month + 1 per MP really mean 1 month + 1 month per MP? I hate to be splitting hairs here, but a little bit more clarity would be nice.

Another question, for synthmorphs, is those times for building a synthmorph in a garage? Built using parts from a warehouse or small fabber?

What about using a large CM machine? Would you save time if you tried printing a Reaper in one go?

ubik2 ubik2's picture
DivineWrath wrote:I can't

DivineWrath wrote:
I can't seem to find printing times for nanofabricators. Are they listed anywhere?

I don't think we've gotten a gear entry for a nanofabricator in this version, but based on EP1, it's a Major complexity object, and would take 24 hours to print. I assume you mean the time to print a nanofabricator. If you mean the time to print with a nanofabricator, those are listed in the acquiring gear section.

DivineWrath wrote:
When it says 1 week + 1 per MP, does it mean 1 week + 1 week per MP? Likewise, is 1 month + 1 per MP really mean 1 month + 1 month per MP? I hate to be splitting hairs here, but a little bit more clarity would be nice.

That was the way I read it. Synthmorphs used to be faster (a day for a case, or a week for the more complex ones). Biomorphs used to be slower (a year and a half). Pods used to be a little slower (6 months).

DivineWrath wrote:
Another question, for synthmorphs, is those times for building a synthmorph in a garage? Built using parts from a warehouse or small fabber?

What about using a large CM machine? Would you save time if you tried printing a Reaper in one go?


I think the way this used to work is that the timeframe was the same when using a smaller fabricator (like a desktop cornucopia machine), but you needed to do manual assembly of the parts (which would sometimes require a skill check).

I'm assuming they're continuing with this simple model, even though it probably doesn't map well to reality (where the industrial fabber should be able to make things a lot faster). It's probably overkill for most games to get into more detail.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
ubik2 wrote:DivineWrath wrote

ubik2 wrote:
DivineWrath wrote:
I can't seem to find printing times for nanofabricators. Are they listed anywhere?

I don't think we've gotten a gear entry for a nanofabricator in this version, but based on EP1, it's a Major complexity object, and would take 24 hours to print. I assume you mean the time to print a nanofabricator. If you mean the time to print with a nanofabricator, those are listed in the acquiring gear section.

I'm hoping that printing by nanofab might be faster. Getting gear seems to be a lot slower than it used to be. A nanofab could (or used to) produce stuff in hours... assuming it was big enough to do the job in one go.

ubik2 wrote:
DivineWrath wrote:
When it says 1 week + 1 per MP, does it mean 1 week + 1 week per MP? Likewise, is 1 month + 1 per MP really mean 1 month + 1 month per MP? I hate to be splitting hairs here, but a little bit more clarity would be nice.

That was the way I read it. Synthmorphs used to be faster (a day for a case, or a week for the more complex ones). Biomorphs used to be slower (a year and a half). Pods used to be a little slower (6 months).

Odd. Wasn't a Case a 3 hour job? Price category [Moderate] was 3 hours.

ubik2 wrote:
DivineWrath wrote:
Another question, for synthmorphs, is those times for building a synthmorph in a garage? Built using parts from a warehouse or small fabber?

What about using a large CM machine? Would you save time if you tried printing a Reaper in one go?


I think the way this used to work is that the timeframe was the same when using a smaller fabricator (like a desktop cornucopia machine), but you needed to do manual assembly of the parts (which would sometimes require a skill check).

I'm assuming they're continuing with this simple model, even though it probably doesn't map well to reality (where the industrial fabber should be able to make things a lot faster). It's probably overkill for most games to get into more detail.

I'm hoping for more information. I like options.

swordchucks swordchucks's picture
Proposal

I'd like to clarify and repeat a proposal I made earlier:

1) The cost of the Resources trait becomes 1 CP per level.
2) The benefit of the Resources trait is +1 MP per level.
3) In-game purchases are done with the Rep system.
4) You can burn Resources in place of Rep at a rate of 1 level per 5 Rep. This is otherwise identical to burning rep.

The Rep system becomes the central focus since highly portable and already has reasonable timeframes attached to it. An addition of a "trade a favor" mechanic would also be good, so that sometimes favors you're calling in don't count against you (provided you burn some time on those return favors).

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Morph production times

DivineWrath wrote:
Odd. Wasn't a Case a 3 hour job? Price category [Moderate] was 3 hours.

Normally, that would be the case, but the Morph production times seem to be special, and don't correspond to their price categories. The times are from Core, page 276.

Times and costs are both higher in this version.

ComplexityOld TimeNew TimeOld CP*New CP
Trivial1 hour2 hours.01 CP1 CP
Low2 hours2 hours.05 CP1 CP
Moderate3 hours8 hours.2 CP2 CP
High4 hours24 hours1 CP4 CP
Expensive5 hour24 hours4 CP4 CP

* I used the new CP units for showing the old prices, since the new CP are worth 5 of the old CP.

Player's don't really buy gear with the same points they buy characters anymore, so the higher costs only come into play if they need to burn a favor/resource. The game seems more focused on gear just being available, without all the bookkeeping. Gear included with a morph is 1/4 the points, so that makes the new costs pretty similar to the old costs for that gear.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
ubik2 wrote:DivineWrath wrote

ubik2 wrote:
DivineWrath wrote:
Odd. Wasn't a Case a 3 hour job? Price category [Moderate] was 3 hours.

Normally, that would be the case, but the Morph production times seem to be special, and don't correspond to their price categories. The times are from Core, page 276.

Times and costs are both higher in this version.

ComplexityOld TimeNew TimeOld CP*New CP
Trivial1 hour2 hours.01 CP1 CP
Low2 hours2 hours.05 CP1 CP
Moderate3 hours8 hours.2 CP2 CP
High4 hours24 hours1 CP4 CP
Expensive5 hour24 hours4 CP4 CP

* I used the new CP units for showing the old prices, since the new CP are worth 5 of the old CP.

Player's don't really buy gear with the same points they buy characters anymore, so the higher costs only come into play if they need to burn a favor/resource. The game seems more focused on gear just being available, without all the bookkeeping. Gear included with a morph is 1/4 the points, so that makes the new costs pretty similar to the old costs for that gear.

And to move some thoughts that happened in the PSI thread to where they really should be had:

ubik2, from over in the PSI thread wrote:
o11o1 wrote:
What complexity class should "Biological Brain as though it were a 'ware" be?

Major is the closest category, but a biomorph takes 5 months longer than a pod to create, and the main difference is the brain. If you keep your brain, and just need to grow back everything else, a healing vat can do that in a month.

A Major item usually takes 24 hours to create, so that brain requires 150x longer. It still might just get thrown in the Major category for simplicity, though.

I don't think the Morph spreadsheet charged anything for the biomorph, despite the tremendous resources required by society to create them. In fact, switching a biomorph to a cyberbrain costs 1 MP instead of refunding the 150 MP you might expect.

So it seems that we've run into a situation where the setting says one thing, and the rules are saying another. Such things trouble me.

It does seem like Morphs in general are really "A cost category above 'Major' " which probably deserves to be called out in the rules that such things exist, even beyond Rare / Restricted. I'm not sure what to name it, but a rough guide of "Can only be acquired using Morph Points" seems like it's defining trait.

I would expect spaceships to be in a similar place, when they aren't being handled as "a habitat with engines on it".

I've been poking at designing a fantasy game in my spare time, and the economic systems in that one also have a tendency to break down and cry when faced with the prospect of "Needs to handle both small hand weapons and sailing ships in the same rules, but the ship costs literally millions of times more than a pistol"

My ongoing conclusion is that trying to handle both in the same ruleset opens you up to massive headaches, be it the crazy beancounting of using dollars / gold pieces, or the exponential increase of trying to handle it with Resources Levels.

Notice how EP2 is already splitting out the small stuff to be handled on Rep and Resources, while the big stuff like bodies is handled through Morph Points. Of course, given that a Reaper costs something like 11 MP (compared to a recommended base of 6 + Resources Level ), what about proper ships? What's the MP value on Meathab for instance?

A slight smell of ions....

eaton eaton's picture
I believe the MP cost of

I believe the MP cost of Meathab is "Nope".

To a certain degree, unless you're building a GURPS-like system, there's going to be a point at which you say, "The rules say that this doesn't happen at the party/adventure level. If it does occur it should be at the GM's discretion, as a significant part of the campaign itself."

This is one of the reasons I think the book could really stand some GM-focused advice about running a campaign in this world. Rules can only cover so much when it comes to a post-scarcity environment, and advice on how to handle things was among Transhuman's best contributions.

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Answer for a question

Quote:
What complexity class should "Biological Brain as though it were a 'ware" be?

The original Brain Box augment was listed as a 'Moderate' expense item - granted with the shift to the Gear system revolving around technological complexity, rather than material worth, that could be subject to change.

One item that interested me on reading through the current gear draft was something I read in Eelware:

EP2_ActionsandCombat wrote:
A combination of electric eel genetics and bioconductors in the hands/feet/limbs (bioware) or electri ed panel placement (hardware) allow you to stun with a shocking touch. Eelware can be used to recharge standard batteries or power specially modifed devices by touch (treat as a standard battery).

Does the emphasised part mean that folks with this ware have effectively unlimited ammo for battery-powered weapons? Or is there some limitation to the bioware/hardware that gives it the lifespan of a battery - making it a half-decent backup?

I can see either situation being the case, and I'll admit I hope it's the former - the munchkin in me craves laser spam!

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Thinkmeats In A Can!

I'd prefer to see the Brain Box augment changed to a Biomorph-Only Trait, to drive home the idea that the MeatBrain is the reason why biomorphs take time to produce and define what a morph can do.
Off the top of my head, I'd give it a cost of 1MP, grant Shell traits, but also reduce max pool size by 2 points, determined by the player when they sleeve in.

I'd also like to see a 'Neural Module' implant for synths containing high density neural tissue; it wouldn't be able to host an ego because of the side effects of it's forced growth, but would allow an Async basic access to thier abilities.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Mo' Rep, Mo' Problems.

I've been running through a few ideas for the economy system, and I'm wondering if it would make sense to change the pricing categories to represent Legality rather than Complexity - in this case the limitations reflect what you can get without drawing unwelcome attention and/or having to answer uncomfortable questions, rather than taking more than your share.

Resource costs and Complexity can then be represented by increasing the amount of favours required, or the expenditure of a dedicated point system; basic items of a given level would be +1 favor (above that needed to get access), more complex items would be +2, and so on.
This would mean that characters have a larger amount of favours per [Timeframe], but I don't think that would be an issue.
Another possibility is that favours 'invested' in gear wouldn't refresh as long as it's kept.

This would also allow a more concrete breakdown of what the various favour types mean from a gameplay design standpoint; the higher the level, the larger the affect on character design/gameplay.
I can do a more detailed breakdown if there's interest.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

o11o1 o11o1's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:I've

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
I've been running through a few ideas for the economy system, and I'm wondering if it would make sense to change the pricing categories to represent Legality rather than Complexity - in this case the limitations reflect what you can get without drawing unwelcome attention and/or having to answer uncomfortable questions, rather than taking more than your share.

Resource costs and Complexity can then be represented by increasing the amount of favours required, or the expenditure of a dedicated point system; basic items of a given level would be +1 favor (above that needed to get access), more complex items would be +2, and so on.
This would mean that characters have a larger amount of favours per [Timeframe], but I don't think that would be an issue.
Another possibility is that favours 'invested' in gear wouldn't refresh as long as it's kept.

This would also allow a more concrete breakdown of what the various favour types mean from a gameplay design standpoint; the higher the level, the larger the affect on character design/gameplay.
I can do a more detailed breakdown if there's interest.

The main problem I forsee with this approach is that different places take wildly different approaches to the legality of different items. Furthermore, I feel that "complexity" is a very sane delimiter of what holds back nano-fabrication devices. With simple stuff, you can take shortcuts, broad swaths of matter can be "good enough" in ways that let you print it out much faster and using easier to assemble materials.

Where a lot of the most dangerous and restriction worthy drugs are deceptively simple to make with a chemistry kit, much less nano-fabbers.

A slight smell of ions....

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Legitimate Businessmen PLC.

o11o1 wrote:
The main problem I forsee with this approach is that different places take wildly different approaches to the legality of different items.

It's less of a problem than it appears; once a starting baseline for item categories is established (not difficult), most variations can be assumed to lie within those categories in the same way that the price categories work in V1.
Beyond that, variations in legality can be simply represented by increasing effective cost within a category (tighter controls, more hoops to jump through or palms to grease), shifting category (more drastic changes in item legality), and/or altering the amount of favours available at each level (how stringent/powerful the local authorities are).

It's worth mentioning that the original idea was to have categories represent different feedstock rarities and number of favours for legality, but switching the two makes it run smoother.

o11o1 wrote:
Furthermore, I feel that "complexity" is a very sane delimiter of what holds back nano-fabrication devices. With simple stuff, you can take shortcuts, broad swaths of matter can be "good enough" in ways that let you print it out much faster and using easier to assemble materials.

Complexity can still be used as a limiter – you just use the favour cost as the variable.
There's also precedent for legality-based restrictions on fabricator capability.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Reshy Reshy's picture
Acquisition times are too long

I feel that they seem to be way too long in general, especially when it comes to morphs. Some of the rules don't make a whole lot of sense when you start thinking about them, for instance:

Quote:
MULTIPLE GEAR ITEMS AT ONCE
If PCs seek to get their hands on multiple items at once, simply combine the timeframes. If using rep for multiple items, make a single Rep Test (modified as per the highest level favor) but mark off all of the favors used.

Alright, so this makes some fundamental assumptions that are quite possibly very false. This first off assumes there's only a single printer, when there very likely could be multiple capable fabbers, which in that case you should logically divide the time based on the amount of machines available. If you went into say a "fabber" junction during lull hours, there's far more likely to be multiple fabbers that are going unused, so you can set them up to print multiple things at once.

Quote:
GEAR COMPLEXITY
Each gear item in Eclipse Phase lists a Complexity rating:

Minor: Common, simple items that are accessible and easy to nanofabricate. Most are readily available online or at physical stores/community dispensaries.

Moderate: Less common items that may take some effort to track down and more intricate items that require longer to nanofabricate.

Major: Uncommon, expensive, and hard-to-find items or complex gear that takes a substantial amount of time to manufacture.

Rare: Unique, unusual, or highly valuable items may simply not be available or may require an extra expenditure of Rep/Resources or the acquisition of certain unusual feedstock for nanofab purposes.

So if an item is less common, even if you have the blueprint for it, takes longer to produce? That doesn't make that much sense. Maybe if you're special ordering an item to be delivered to you that makes sense, but that's not going to apply to a blueprint you downloaded and had a fabber make.

If an item is obscure or rare/restricted, it really should have a category separate from complexity.

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Another thing is that it doesn't really take size into consideration at all. Or rather it does... by increasing the complexity one step, even for some presumably simple-ish gear like say... Combat Armor.

Combat Armor takes as much time to make as a high-tech medical robot that comes complete with another major complexity item (the healing vat). Which is weird. I could buy the Combat Exoskeleton but combat armor is a little weird. In this case it feels either more like a balance overriding what makes sense, or just the rules not really factoring in size very well.

I get the goal to keep it simple, but I don't think it needs to be that simple.

Something to the effect of a two way split between size and complexity, and then an availability rating would be good I'd think.

Complexity Ratings: Simple, Complex, Intricate, Arcane
Size Ratings: Minute, Small, Moderate, Large, Huge.

Then you show their fabbing times as: "Simple Small" or "Moderate Arcane"

Which may allow the game to more accurately reflect the time it takes to print things when you add size as a factor.

Then you can add availability ratings, which factor in how likely you are to acquire a certain item, and what it's status is.

For instance legality ratings could be: Civilian, Limited, Restricted, and Illegal.

Civilian stands for technology that can be used by pretty much anyone under reasonable circumstances. Limited means you require a license to possess or use a piece of technology, such as a gun or medical equipment. Restricted equipment would include things like explosives, battlesuits, etc. Stuff that requires extensive vetting before being allowed, such as security personnel or miners. Illegal stuff is stuff that is pretty much universally reviled and will probably get you a very lengthy "prison" sentence for possessing, the really dangerous shit like Antimatter.

So altogether, you have three factors that would affect time. Legality affects how easy it is to even find, Size affects how long it takes to fabricate as does Complexity. you'd, presumably add them together, but one advantage of a blueprint is you cut out the legality concerns partially, as you already possess the item and just need a working fabber for it.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Probably on three levels for each

I like the general tack, but I could see it getting easy to over expand and veering into 'too complex' terretory again.

So have Simple / Complex / Intricate as the basic complexity value. For char gen and fabricating with plentiful fabber facilities, this all you need to know.

As for Minute / Small / Large on the size side, my suggestion is that Fabricators, Makers, and Cornucopia Machines themselves come in multiple sizes. A Minute Fabber is designed to make Minute items, and takes no penalty on making those. If it needs to make a Small, it has to spit out parts of the item that need a person to come assemble them using an easy Hardware roll. A Large Fabber can make one large object or several smaller objects at one time. So if you're trying to make Minute objects, you don't need a large fabber to make it, but if you *have* a Large fabber, it's not faster other than you can put other items in with it.

For Legality I'd say should just be Civilian / Restricted / Illegal. Let your 'Licensed' category just be part of Civilian, since Civvies are able to get said licenses. You know, like how you need to show you have a drivers licences when you go to get a car. Or, say, that you have a Ham Radio license. Any easy to get permit should just be rolled into the complexity considerations.

A slight smell of ions....

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